False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[PinSeeker]

Well you have a real problem with god then...

Of course not. I would ask you to roll back your rhetoric, my friend. I like discussion, not sword fights. :)

He both loves and hates.

Yes, I haven't said otherwise. My question to you, is, though, Ronald ~ and this is rhetorical ~ why does He hate? And my answer to you, my friend, is that He hates certain things because He loves.

The Father loves Jesus. but at that point in time on the cross (the second three hours approx.) Jesus became sin and god punished Jesus as sin. that is why Jesus cried "My god, My God, why have you abandoned me.?"

Well, so my question again: from that point, for about three days, give or take, did God not love Jesus? Again, I say no...

If you can fully wrap your head around that dichotomy, good for you.

:) I don't think there's any dichotomy there. :)

Well god will never pour anger out on His children.

Well, He'll never pour out His wrath on His children... Because of what Jesus did on our behalf, there is no more condemnation for those of us who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), as I said. But might He still have some righteous anger directed at us ~ in love ~ at least from time to time for our sin? Yes. In this sense, Ronald, God's anger is a grace, a kindness which leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). Ergo, His anger, which can still be directed at us even though we are in Christ, is actually love. I understand the difficulty in accepting this, because we can only imagine anger from our own sinful perspective; we can't really get holy anger.

Our sin was transferred on Jesus, and His righteousness was applied to our account.

Sure, which means there will never be any more condemnation for sin placed upon us (Romans 8:1). But might He still have some righteous anger directed at us ~ in love ~ for our sin? Yes. God, Ronald,

Well we are finite fallen humans and to attribute to god what we do is foolishness.

Which is my point. One of them anyway.

What God does is perfect and that includes His love and never ending anger!

God is love, right, Ronald? That's what John says. God is love. Now, I don't agree that His anger is never-ending, but if God is love, then does that mean He never gets angry? Again, a rhetorical question. Of course that's not what it means.

God knows who will not get saved and that is why His wrath continually abides on them.

Then why do the wicked prosper? :) Another rhetorical question. :) I would say, Ronald, as Paul says in Romans 9, that, for now, God "endures with much patience" those who will not get saved.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

This is the second coming. It occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL

In the second coming the Lord sends His angels at the Last Trump

You are contradicting yourself when you claim the second coming is at a seal, then say it's at a trump. The correct timeframe is the last trump. The seal is not when this happens but it does speak of last trump events but as prophecy ahead of the actual events happening.

 

[ewq1938]

The "possibility" that the rapture take place right this very second is in Mathew 24:37-51.

The emphasis of being ready is in verse 44.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

While we can't say that the rapture will happen on a certain day nor hour, we should approach life that it could take place at anytime.

Paul added two events that have to happen before the rapture takes place and both are trib related so, no, the rapture cannot happen at any moment.

 

[Douggg]

Paul added two events that have to happen before the rapture takes place and both are trib related so, no, the rapture cannot happen at any moment.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[The Light]

You are contradicting yourself when you claim the second coming is at a seal,

Negative. The sun, moon and stars mark the timing of the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. This is common sense and easily understood. The second coming of Jesus which we see in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.............simple.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

then say it's at a trump. Teh correct timeframe is the last trump.

No, the Word says it occurs at the last trump. This is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Simple.

The seal is not when this happens but it does speak of last trump events but as prophecy ahead of the actual events happening.

This is totally incorrect. THE TRIBULATION IS OVER AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Then the wrath of God begins. Simple.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[The Light]

As a matter of fact, I don't see you post that much actual Bible Scripture at all! and when you do, you don't even know how to quote it properly!

Oh boy. I post in context scripture constantly. I don't just post a bunch of out of context scripture that proves nothing.

So like I said, go ahead, show me... where I'm wrong in Scripture in my posts you falsely make your claim about. I challenge you.

The challenge has not gone well for you Davy. One small onslaught of proving what you are saying is incorrect and the tent folds up.

 

[ewq1938]

Negative.

This is the second coming. It occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL

In the second coming the Lord sends His angels at the Last Trump

You are contradicting yourself when you claim the second coming is at a seal, then say it's at a trump. It can only happen at one of them not both.

 

[The Light]

You are contradicting yourself when you claim the second coming is at a seal, then say it's at a trump. It can only happen at one of them not both.

No contradiction. Just you attempting to confuse the issue.

Already produced scripture that shows that the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. This will occur at the last trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets.

John had not even written Revelation until much later. You don't see any clarification from Paul, such as, sorry for the confusion about the "last trump". Don't worry, years from now John will get a revelation that will clear this up.

No, there is none of that as the Jews all knew that the last trump is blown on the feast of Trumpets.

Simple.

 

[ewq1938]

No contradiction.

Claiming the second coming comes at a seal, then claiming it comes at a trump is a contradiction. Only one can be correct but your doctrine on all this is confused and that's why contradictions are made.

 

[The Light]

Claiming the second coming comes at a seal, then claiming it comes at a trump is a contradiction. Only one can be correct but your doctrine on all this is confused and that's why contradictions are made.

You think the seals and trumpets are talking about the same time frame. They are not. The seals happen during the tribulation. That is when the dragon goes after the woman and her seed. Wrath is when God punishes the world. Completely separate time frames.

This one verse PROVES you are in error.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gods people do not go through the wrath of God. They obtain salvation before the wrath of God. That means they are raptured before wrath as they are not appointed to wrath. Your views have the Church going through the wrath of God and yet the Word tells us we receive salvation before wrath. So you are incorrect based on scripture

Further, these verses proof that your views do not agree with scripture.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I'm not sure why you can't grasp the FACT that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...........CHRIST HAS RETURNED. The wrath of God is over.

When you are reading Revelation 13,14 and 15 you are back in the seals.

Until your views line up with scripture, they are just your views and are in error. So you can stay stuck with incorrect OPINIONS, or you can change you views to agree with scripture.

 

[Davy]

It gives you confidence because you see the error in those that claim a pretrib rapture. You claim that the rapture is immediately after the tribulation. What you don't see is that there are two raptures. The Lord is truly coming when you think not.

Jesus Christ is WHO... revealed His coming to gather His saints is "Immediately after the tribulation...", AS WRITTEN in Matthew 24:29.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I'm not the one who said that. Jesus did.

Therefore, what YOU say is NOT to be trusted, because you have TRIED to assign what Jesus Himself said to a FALSE LIE.

 

[ewq1938]

You think the seals and trumpets are talking about the same time frame. They are not.

Tell yourself that. You are the one who posted that the second coming happens at the 6th seal and at the last trump. Seals and trumps don't happen at the same time so you have a contradiction and it would be better for you to deal with that issue and resolve it rather than make corrections that only actually apply to yourself.

 

[Davy]

Oh boy. I post in context scripture constantly. I don't just post a bunch of out of context scripture that proves nothing.


The challenge has not gone well for you Davy. One small onslaught of proving what you are saying is incorrect and the tent folds up.

Same old hat, pushing SLANDER ABOVE and not a bit of Bible Scripture.

 

[The Light]

Jesus Christ is WHO... revealed His coming to gather His saints is "Immediately after the tribulation...", AS WRITTEN in Matthew 24:29.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I'm not the one who said that. Jesus did.

Therefore, what YOU say is NOT to be trusted, because you have TRIED to assign what Jesus Himself said to a FALSE LIE.

Sorry Davy, but I agree with Jesus. It is you that stand in error.

The gathering from heaven and earth is after the tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation.

Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth....................seen here. This is the same gathering that occurs at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

You are in error continually as you walk without understanding.

 

[The Light]

Same old hat, pushing SLANDER ABOVE and not a bit of Bible Scripture.

Weak. I'm commenting on your comment. You need some scripture. Your incorrect view has the Church going through the wrath of God.

Scripture says you are in error.

1 Thessalonians 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Additionally, you claim that "THE" rapture is after the tribulation. The truth is, there is "A" rapture after the tribulation. The Lord has already come for the Church before the tribulation begins. He comes in an HOUR YOU THINK NOT. You don't believe Him as you walk without understanding.

Don't you believe the Word of God?
Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Don't you believe the Word of God?
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Just rememeber
Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You are not looking for Him as you think the man of sin will be revealed before the rapture OF THE CHURCH. Yet the Church will be in heaven before the tribulation. The rapture that you see AFTER THE TRIBULATION is NOT the Church being gathered FROM THE EARTH. The Church is gathered from heaven at that time. It is the seed of the woman that is gathered from the earth.

It is not wise to call people liars when you are told the truth. You walk without understanding and the time draws very, very, very, very, very short.

 

[Davy]

Sorry Davy, but I agree with Jesus. It is you that stand in error.

Mouth all you want against me, but LORD JESUS IS WATCHING YOU mock His Words of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

I really hope you aren't mocking HIM because you are over a congregation that you have deceived on man's false pre-trib rapture theory. Might it scare... you if they learned the Truth of what Jesus showed there in that Scripture I referenced? How much money would you lose?

 

[PinSeeker]

I at least somewhat agree with what Light is saying; here's what I would offer as a help toward "getting" John's Revelation:

The principal theme of Revelation is that God rules history and he will bring it to its consummation in Christ. The most important event toward which history moves is the Second Coming of Christ. Visions that describe the Second Coming mark important transitions. When we go to Revelation with this concern in mind, we find descriptions of the Second Coming no less than seven times. There are seven cycles of judgment, each leading up to the Second Coming. A final, eighth vision shows the new Jerusalem, the consummate state on the other side of the Second Coming. Here is the resulting outline:

• Cycle 1: Seven seals... Revelation 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: Seven trumpets... Revelation 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: Symbolic figures and the harvest... Revelation 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: Seven bowls... Revelation 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: Judgment of Babylon... Revelation 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: White horse judgment... Revelation 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: White throne judgment... Revelation 20:1-21:8

The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

Don't shoot the messenger. :) If you disagree, then... that's okay. :) Grace and peace to you all.

 

[PinSeeker]

Mouth all you want against me...

I think there's plenty of "mouthing" going on from many posters here, including... Well, I would just beseech us all to stop it. :) I would stress to all here something that I would hope we would all be aware of, that one of the things Satan loves is seeing Christians turn on each other. Stop it. Now. Please.

I really hope you aren't mocking HIM...

No one here is mocking Jesus.


Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davy]

I at least somewhat agree with what Light is saying; here's what I would offer as a help toward "getting" John's Revelation:

The principal theme of Revelation is that God rules history and he will bring it to its consummation in Christ. The most important event toward which history moves is the Second Coming of Christ. Visions that describe the Second Coming mark important transitions. When we go to Revelation with this concern in mind, we find descriptions of the Second Coming no less than seven times. There are seven cycles of judgment, each leading up to the Second Coming. A final, eighth vision shows the new Jerusalem, the consummate state on the other side of the Second Coming. Here is the resulting outline:

• Cycle 1: Seven seals... Revelation 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: Seven trumpets... Revelation 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: Symbolic figures and the harvest... Revelation 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: Seven bowls... Revelation 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: Judgment of Babylon... Revelation 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: White horse judgment... Revelation 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: White throne judgment... Revelation 20:1-21:8

The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

Don't shoot the messenger. :) If you disagree, then... that's okay. :) Grace and peace to you all.

What I see from God's Word on the endtime events are the 7 SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which are actually the SAME 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials. I don't separate the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials from each other like most do, because of how Apostle John was given the visions and wrote them down.

Somewhere on the forum I showed the Scripture parallel to Christ's Olivet discourse SIGNS and the Seals of Revelation 6.

So even though Revelation goes into 21 events, those are still only about the 7 main SIGNS He gave in His Olivet discourse.

 

[Davy]

I think there's plenty of "mouthing" going on from many posters here, including... Well, I would just beseech us all to stop it. :) I would stress to all here something that I would hope we would all be aware of, that one of the things Satan loves is seeing Christians turn on each other. Stop it. Now. Please.


No one here is mocking Jesus.


Grace and peace to all.

Well, yes 'The Light' has mocked me personally, BUT even... worse, he has mocked the simple evidence that Lord Jesus Himself gave that His future coming and gathering of His Church will be "Immediately after the tribulation..." per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

So why don't you try beseeching him for a change, instead of trying that on me by my KEEPING what Jesus actually said there.

Something else, and this for YOU...

IF... you present a doctrine that goes against the simplicity of God's written Word, I will point that out to YOU also. And you may call it whatever you want, correction, rebuke, etc. But I will be doing it out of love. So please, enough of the hippie 'peace-love-dove' type speech, for even Lord Jesus used a cat-of-nine-tails to whip the moneychangers out of His temple.

John 2:13-15
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when He had made a scourge of small cords, He drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
KJV



NT:5416
phragellion (frag-el'-le-on); neuter of a derivative from the base of NT:5417; a whip, i.e. Roman lash as a public punishment:

KJV - scourge.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)