Why did God...

[face2face]

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord Acts 9:1

Why did God not bring about his conversion earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death?

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord Acts 9:1

Why did God not bring about his conversion earlier rather than allowing him to sentence so many to exile and death?

F2F

Why didn't God bring about a change in F2F's mind about all the faulty assumptions she makes? It would save so much confusion for herself and others being led to opaque and foggy places.

 

[face2face]

Why didn't God bring about a change in F2F's mind about all the faulty assumptions she makes? It would save so much confusion for herself and others being led to opaque and foggy places.

She's a he Quiet, and it appears the question may have you at a loss. Sit back and see if there are those who have insights they wish to share. Good day.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Here is another dimension to this question.

Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and miraculous signs among the people

Why not allow Stephen to continue this good work? Maybe his death could have been avoided? Imagine the potential for even greater works?

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Here is another dimension to this question.

Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and miraculous signs among the people

Why not allow Stephen to continue this good work? Maybe his death could have been avoided? Imagine the potential for even greater works?

F2F

Your assumption F2F is that God allowed it. Coupled with the assumption is the implication that God wanted Stephan dead and could have made a better choice. This is confirmed by sighting the potential of him staying alive.
It's quite slippery and is reminiscent of the serpents questions to Eve.

 

[face2face]

Your assumption F2F is that God allowed it. Coupled with the assumption is the implication that God wanted Stephan dead and could have made a better choice. This is confirmed by sighting the potential of him staying alive.
It's quite slippery and is reminiscent of the serpents questions to Eve.

At least you spoke to the question, that's a start.

I never said "God wanted Stephen dead", that is your inference on the question being presented. I asked, why would God not bring about the conversion of Paul to save the likes of Stephen and others. If like me, you believe God's timing is important to Him and His plan of redemption, there must be good reason why God allowed Saul to persecute the early believers. Are you able to reason this out, or are you more interested in standing a far off?

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

At least you spoke to the question, that's a start.

I never said "God wanted Stephen dead", that is your inference on the question being presented. I asked, why would God not bring about the conversion of Paul to save the likes of Stephen and others. If like me, you believe God's timing is important to Him and His plan of redemption, there must be good reason why God allowed Saul to persecute the early believers. Are you able to reason this out, or are you more interested in standing a far off?

F2F

We live on a fallen Planet. Sh.t things happens to both good and bad.
Jesus came to bring life and they murdered him.
God has given men autonomy. Choosing badly then backhandedly making God responsible by saying he allows evil is another tactic the evil one uses to tar God's reputation.

 

[face2face]

We live on a fallen Planet. Sh.t things happens to both good and bad.
Jesus came to bring life and they murdered him.
God has given men autonomy. Choosing badly then backhandedly making God responsible by saying he allows evil is another tactic the evil one uses to tar God's reputation.

Okay, do you believe the timing of Christ revealing himself to Paul was random and without significance? Maybe you do?

If you read your above statement again, are you suggesting God has no involvement these matters? I don't believe you think this for a minute, which is why I am asking you to reconsider why God acts one way, or another, in His Creation.

Could God have saved Stephen?
Could God have changed Saul's direction earlier?

I know you know the answers...I'm wanting us to think about some of the broader reasons for Saul's conversions and why God did what He did.

F2F

 

[face2face]

We live on a fallen Planet. Sh.t things happens to both good and bad.
Jesus came to bring life and they murdered him.
God has given men autonomy. Choosing badly then backhandedly making God responsible by saying he allows evil is another tactic the evil one uses to tar God's reputation.

I think its important you also know its impossible for God reputation to be tarred though man tries daily, he will never succeed. Don't be afraid of asking questions of God's motives - great wisdom resides there.

 

[quietthinker]

I think its important you also know its impossible for God reputation to be tarred though man tries daily, he will never succeed. Don't be afraid of asking questions of God's motives - great wisdom resides there.

Tarring God's reputation has been the Devils game from the outset. He succeeded in persuading many angels with his sophistry. Fallen men are a piece of cake for him. Were it not for Jesus revelation of God, we would be largely in the dark re God's character....just as many Hebrews in OT times were, let alone the pagans.
Right at the outset of the human creation the serpent's (Satan) intention was to tar God's reputation. You know the story.

 

[APAK]

@face2face and @quietthinker.....from the archives that fits well into this thread, of a great topic I might say. And then it also demonstrates those that question the timing of God's work and in reverence has the fear of God and seeks deeper wisdom!
-------------------------------------------------------a UK source ----------------------
One of the great disasters of history took place in 1271. Nicolo and Matteo Polo (the father and uncle of Marco) were visiting the Kublai Khan, at that time a world ruler over China, India and all of the East. He was attracted to the story of Christianity as Nicolo and Matteo told it to him and said this to them: “You shall go to your high priest and tell him on my behalf to send me 100 men skilled in your religion, and I shall be baptized. And when I am baptized, all my barons and great men will be baptized and their subjects will receive baptism, too. So, there will be more Christians here than there are in your parts.”

However, nothing was done for about 30 years. Then two or three missionaries were sent too few – and too late. It baffles the imagination to think what a difference to the world it would have made if China had become fully Christian in the thirteenth century and the East had been given to Christ. These men missed the opportunity, and God’s purpose was frustrated.

Could it be that God was trying to create an incredible shift that would have changed the course of history? We may never know, but it certainly sounds possible. It should be our belief and desire that nothing like that will happen in our generation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did the servants of the West of God, fail to obey Him in not bringing the Gospel to Asia 'on time' AND/OR is this what God's planned all along, with his foreknowledge of events?

The foreknowledge of God, independent of time is a key factor here in this topic don't you think?

 

[lforrest]

Saul already needed a thorn to keep from becoming conceited due to the greatness of his revelations. How would he fare if he didn't consider himself the chief of sinners?

Stephen being martyred was a great event, probably achieving more for the kingdom than had he continued living this life.

Something I don't think is preached on much is the value of adversity for strengthening our faith. 1 Peter 1:7

We inevitably aim for comfort, it is human nature to seek lives of abundance even when it isn't best for us.

 

[APAK]

Saul already needed a thorn to keep from becoming conceited due to the greatness of his revelations. How would he fare if he didn't consider himself the chief of sinners?

Stephen being martyred was a great event, probably achieving more for the kingdom than had he continued living this life.

Something I don't think is preached on much is the value of adversity for strengthening our faith. 1 Peter 1:7

We inevitably aim for comfort, it is human nature to seek lives of abundance even when it isn't best for us.

Well said and easy to understand.

There is always a larger portion of the big picture of God's plan and purposes that we miss. I do like this topic, and if we are attracted to it we are then (re)engaging or (re)aligning our minds and hearts to God's perspective, And I believe He wants us there, to see the majesty and greatness of his being throughout creation and in our lives. To be closer and to increase in wisdom and understanding, as we tread this path of also, the 'fear' for God.

As you pointed out, abundance of God toward us is how we tend to think and belief, forgetting the sacrifices and the bitterness he may have caused us, as it all works together for good.

And that reminds me of baking analogy of how God can work in creation.

When complimented on her homemade biscuits, the cook at a popular Christian conference replied, “Just consider what goes into the making of these biscuits. The flour itself doesn’t taste good, neither does the baking powder nor the shortening nor the other ingredients. However, when I mix them all together and put them in the oven, they come out just right.”

 

[APAK]

We all experience times of testing, which is normal for every human being. But God will be faithful to you. He will screen and filter the severity, nature, and timing of every test or trial you face so that you can bear it. And each test is an opportunity to trust him more, for along with every trial God has provided for you a way of escape that will bring you out of it victoriously.

1 Corinthians 10:13 TPT

Yahweh, you alone are my inheritance. You are my prize, my pleasure, and my portion. You hold my destiny and its timing in your hands.

Psalm 16:5 TPT

Even if our life is filled with many disappointments and hard aches, we still look to God in fear and love. By strong unwavering faith, real humility we tell God thank you for our life with Him, with his Son. The rewards are unmeasurable, bringing more spiritual growth being more like Christ, with more wisdom and understanding, a closer more intimate walk with God through his Son. And we will learn to know God's timing better, even for and in our lives, even to know when our time is at a close on this earth.

 

[face2face]

Tarring God's reputation has been the Devils game from the outset. He succeeded in persuading many angels with his sophistry. Fallen men are a piece of cake for him. Were it not for Jesus revelation of God, we would be largely in the dark re God's character....just as many Hebrews in OT times were, let alone the pagans.
Right at the outset of the human creation the serpent's (Satan) intention was to tar God's reputation. You know the story.

Quiet, it's possible you have not only read the other response's but you have seen their approach to the questions in a way which honors God and the text. The damage your satan theology does, not only to your faith and understanding, but to the Word itself is so hurtful one wonders if those infected by it will ever perceive truth.

BTW Eve was drawn away by her own lust and enticed...no fallen angel mentioned anywhere in the Torah - not once!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@face2face and @quietthinker.....from the archives that fits well into this thread, of a great topic I might say. And then it also demonstrates those that question the timing of God's work and in reverence has the fear of God and seeks deeper wisdom!
-------------------------------------------------------a UK source ----------------------
One of the great disasters of history took place in 1271. Nicolo and Matteo Polo (the father and uncle of Marco) were visiting the Kublai Khan, at that time a world ruler over China, India and all of the East. He was attracted to the story of Christianity as Nicolo and Matteo told it to him and said this to them: “You shall go to your high priest and tell him on my behalf to send me 100 men skilled in your religion, and I shall be baptized. And when I am baptized, all my barons and great men will be baptized and their subjects will receive baptism, too. So, there will be more Christians here than there are in your parts.”

However, nothing was done for about 30 years. Then two or three missionaries were sent too few – and too late. It baffles the imagination to think what a difference to the world it would have made if China had become fully Christian in the thirteenth century and the East had been given to Christ. These men missed the opportunity, and God’s purpose was frustrated.

Could it be that God was trying to create an incredible shift that would have changed the course of history? We may never know, but it certainly sounds possible. It should be our belief and desire that nothing like that will happen in our generation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did the servants of the West of God, fail to obey Him in not bringing the Gospel to Asia 'on time' AND/OR is this what God's planned all along, with his foreknowledge of events?

The foreknowledge of God, independent of time is a key factor here in this topic don't you think?

Nice Apak,

Of course the persecution of the early believers caused the Gospel to spread throughout the then known world, which is what I was trying to convey in this thread. Another fact, one which is hard for many Christians to comprehend is how God is not so interested in human salvation, its not His primary focus as Paul taught Timothy:

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16

Through Stephens death God was manifested in the flesh...in other words God's Character and Glory was revealed through his suffering as it was in Christ. Just as Christ came in due time, or at the right time so it was that Paul came to understand Christ and his treatment of him in Acts 9. This is the determinate council of God and the outworking of His plan.

Your bold text "Could it be that God was trying to create an incredible shift that would have changed the course of history? We may never know, but it certainly sounds possible"

Today there are many Christians in China and other Asian countries but they are the minority. God is taking a people from the nations and has done since Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

God selects His own....you either believe Eph 1:11 or not...In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

So maybe not a disaster, but His Will and Purpose...and in the end when the Elect are made up... who will know what made up His treasures? We know Stephen and Paul will be there and many others (not all!) only those who conformed to that Will and Purpose will see Him.

The mind that understands God manifestation will come to a knowledge of how to be saved...there is no other way.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Saul already needed a thorn to keep from becoming conceited due to the greatness of his revelations. How would he fare if he didn't consider himself the chief of sinners?

Stephen being martyred was a great event, probably achieving more for the kingdom than had he continued living this life.

Something I don't think is preached on much is the value of adversity for strengthening our faith. 1 Peter 1:7

We inevitably aim for comfort, it is human nature to seek lives of abundance even when it isn't best for us.

Iforrest

I love this response (thank you)!

It's the other aspect of this timing - the Fullness of Grace abounding in Paul's life...how can he preach from any other place than this?

"For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" 1 Cor 15:9

@quietthinker can you see why the timing of Paul's conversion was so precise? God allowed him to fully vent his murderous rage on the Christians that his conversion would be so transformative, that he would suffer floggings, being stoned, ship wrecks for the sake of his Christ and the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Iforrest is correct about Stephen also.

The standing Christ (not sitting) but in the position of judgement, ready to provide assistance for his people in a great time of need. see Heb 10:12; 1 Pet. 3:22 & Mat 28:18).

Stephen was not alone, as his Lord was not alone in the hour of his great trial.

F2F

 

[face2face]

When complimented on her homemade biscuits, the cook at a popular Christian conference replied, “Just consider what goes into the making of these biscuits. The flour itself doesn’t taste good, neither does the baking powder nor the shortening nor the other ingredients. However, when I mix them all together and put them in the oven, they come out just right.”

I'll grab this one thanks Apak!

 

[quietthinker]

Quiet, it's possible you have not only read the other response's but you have seen their approach to the questions in a way which honors God and the text. The damage your satan theology does, not only to your faith and understanding, but to the Word itself is so hurtful one wonders if those infected by it will ever perceive truth.

BTW Eve was drawn away by her own lust and enticed...no fallen angel mentioned anywhere in the Torah - not once!

F2F

The Serpent is identified in Revelation 12:9
'And the great dragon was thrown down, the age-old serpent who is called the devil and Satan, he who continually deceives and seduces the entire inhabited world; ...

 

[face2face]

The Serpent is identified in Revelation 12:9
'And the great dragon was thrown down, the age-old serpent who is called the devil and Satan, he who continually deceives and seduces the entire inhabited world; ...

Correct...understanding the true nature of the Adversary (satan) in the apocalypse is a study in itself...not for this thread.
Thanks
F2F