The Character of God - Reader Poll

[St. SteVen]

My brother and sister and I privately referred to our father as "Ol' Grouch". Towards the end of his life, he told me he knew that and how deeply it hurt him. Ouch.

I worked on disciplining my own children in a way we could both feel good about.
This was to correct the "mistakes" I had made earlier on. For which I apologized to them.
Kids are actually very forgiving. (or can be) No guarantees, I suppose.

Kids enjoy all sorts of privileges that can be revoked temporarily as a consequence.
Even works as an effective threat to keep them in line. If they understand that their misbehavior
will result in losing some they want, they straighten up pretty quickly. (usually)
Especially with consistent follow-through.

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[Lambano]

Yes, possibly.
Disappointment works better. IMHO

To me, anger communicates that the child is inherently bad and needs the devil beat out of them.
Whereas disappointment communicates that the child is inherently good and has failed in their poor behavior.

/

That depends on the child.

Bluntly, what I've seen here and in other forums over the past 20 years is there is a significant percentage of people out there who psychologically NEED God to be angry with them.

Really. Think about what you've observed yourself.

 

[Lambano]

Bluntly, what I've seen here and in other forums over the past 20 years is there is a significant percentage of people out there who psychologically NEED God to be angry with them.

And then they won't be happy until everyone else is just as neurotic as they are - but that's another story.

 

[St. SteVen]

Bluntly, what I've seen here and in other forums over the past 20 years is there is a significant percentage of people out there who psychologically NEED God to be angry with them.

Dysfunction in the family of God. Wow.
I wonder how God feels about that. ???

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[Lambano]

Dysfunction in the family of God. Wow.
I wonder how God feels about that. ???

/

Dysfunctional people.

How many here have stated that they would not follow Jesus if they weren't terrified of being sent to Hell? How many would not repent of whatever their particular sins are? They NEED God to be angry with them.

And they want to make sure every other Christian is equally neurotic.

 

[Lambano]

I wonder how God feels about that. ???

The same way my dad felt about being called "Ol' Grouch" behind his back?

 

[St. SteVen]

Dysfunctional people.

How many here have stated that they would not follow Jesus if they weren't terrified of being sent to Hell? How many would not repent of whatever their particular sins are? They NEED God to be angry with them.

Agree.

What a sad state of affairs.

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[Lambano]

Agree.

What a sad state of affairs.

/

It's what we are.

Humanity is a sick bunch.

No wonder the Calvinists came up with that "Total Depravity" doctrine.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hah! Paul's strawman came to life and started winning the argument.

Hmm... Based on posts you've made before, I hope the answer to this question is 'no,' but do you think Paul to be making a strawman argument?

"Why then does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" I think that's a damned reasonable question to ask, and Paul can't answer it.

Humanly speaking, yes, it is reasonable. :) And an anticipated one. Many times, it is more effective to answer a question with a question, and this is exactly what Paul does here, quelching it ~ exposing it for its absurdity ~ by asking, in effect, "Do you presume yourself more powerful than God?" And/or, "Does God answer to you?" Which fits with his statement three verses earlier (Romans 9:16) that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," and his quote one verse previous to that of God Himself, Who, through Moses, said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Paul had to put down a Golem of his own making.

So, are you accusing God of making a "strawman argument?" We are talking about His Word, of course, all of which is God-breathed. Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...in disciplining misbehaving children, it may be necessary for a Father to exhibit anger.

Right, but again, there is such thing as a righteous, holy, sinless, loving anger, And this is always, without exception, the manifestation of anger from God. With man, of course, in his sinful state, it is a very different story. Two passages come immediately to mind; actually three, but they all go together:

"...for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)​

​

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrews 12:6-11)​

​

"Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent." (Revelation 3:19)​

God's discipline is a grace to us, and His anger is an act of love.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's what we are. Humanity is a sick bunch. No wonder the Calvinists came up with that "Total Depravity" doctrine.

Well, neither Calvinists nor John Calvin Himself actually "came up with it." :)

"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)​

Now, this was before Noah's flood, but do you think the state of the man to be different now than it was in those days? If so, then why would Jeremiah ~ quoting God Himself ~ say things like the following?

"I have paid attention and listened, but they have not spoken rightly; no man relents of his evil, saying, ‘What have I done?’ Everyone turns to his own course, like a horse plunging headlong into battle." (Jeremiah 8:6)​

"...every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to Me." (Jeremiah 16:12)​

Ohhhh... but that's the Old Testament, which is irrelevant to us today, right?

As Paul says of himself ~ and so of all of us:

"I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." (Romans 7:18-19)​

​

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Timothy 1:15)​

Sin is a terrible, terrible thing. As the hymnist says:

Ye who think of sin but lightly​

Nor suppose the evil great​

Here may view its nature rightly​

Here its guilt may estimate.​

Mark the sacrifice appointed​

See who bears the awful load​

'Tis the Word, the Lord's Anointed​

Son of Man and Son of God.​

[Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted]​

Grace and peace to you, Lambano.

 

[Lambano]

Humanly speaking, yes, it is reasonable.

Then answer it. "Why does He then find fault? For who resists His will?"

 

[Lambano]

We are talking about His Word, of course, all of which is God-breathed. Right?

I have not yet conceded that preliminary assumption.

 

[PinSeeker]

...there is a significant percentage of people out there who psychologically NEED God to be angry with them.

It's not about "needing" anything, Lambano... except His forgiveness and redemption itself, which can only come through You-Know-Who...

Think about what you've observed yourself.

Indeed. Observed in others, and in yourself as well. Be honest with yourself. Indeed.

And then they won't be happy until everyone else is just as neurotic as they are...

"Neurotic?" As you know, I'm sure, Lambano, Jesus said, "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (Matthew 11:28-29)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Then answer it. "Why does He then find fault? For who resists His will?"

May I do it with Scripture? Well, no matter, I will anyway, as Paul does:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they..." ~ we all ~ "...are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

Grace and peace to you, Lambano.

 

[PinSeeker]

Pinseeker: "We are talking about His Word, of course, all of which is God-breathed. Right?"

I have not yet conceded that preliminary assumption.

"Assumption..." Hmmm... Assumption on the part of whom? Me? Paul?

I mean, okay, that's fair, I guess... but troubling.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I wonder how much of the 'old grouch' perception of God comes from insecure Church leaders ? (as well as human fathers)

 

[St. SteVen]

I wonder how much of the 'old grouch' perception of God comes from insecure Church leaders ? (as well as human fathers)

That's an interesting point.
How should God be described? (in your view)

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[PinSeeker]

How should God be described? (in your view)

That question sounds very loaded, Steven. Anticipating how you would probably answer that question yourself (and I would agree on its face), does true love always… “feel” good… to the recipient? Or, along the same lines, does true love always look/seem loving to observers?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's an interesting point.
How should God be described? (in your view)

/

Best way to answer that is to quote a whole gaggle of scripture - do you want that ???