Where does the Pope get his authority?

[The Learner]

has anyone read the untwisting scripture series?

 

[RedFan]

has anyone read the untwisting scripture series?

I have not. What's it about?

 

[Brakelite]

Are you sure it was God who struck them down Brakelite?

Actually no. Not directly. So poor word choice. God withdrew His protection and benevolence. And Satan took advantage.

 

[Brakelite]

Thanks for answering the question. I appreciate it as some on here just ignore questions asked of them and only answer with a question. You didn't do that, and I appreciate it. :)

The topic of our conversation is Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves (Hebrews 13:17) and all the other passages I gave that show that there are men, here on earth, that were made elders/overseers of The Church by the Holy Spirit and we are to obey and respect their authority.

In Acts 5 it was clear that members of the Christian community had a commandment to give all they have to The Church. They (Ananias and Sapphira for this conversation) took PART of their money to Peter. What you said is true, "Peter didn't kill them". AFTER Peter rebuked them, they were struck dead. God struck them down because they lied to Him. Why didn't God strike them down as soon as they lied? Why did God wait until AFTER Peter rebuked them to strike them down?

Because He wanted to show to the rest of the Christian community Peter's and the other Apostles authority here on earth. Great fear seized all who heard what happened and great fear came over the members of The Church. God wanted to show the Christian community that they were to obey those that ruled over them and submit themselves to them.

You clearly don't think that the authority that Peter had then exists today. No man can rule over you. However, you still havn't shown me where it says that Hebrew 13:17 was nullified by God. You keep giving me your opinion about it, but you havn't given any Scripture to back up that opinion. If you show me a passage in Scripture that says I DON'T have to obey the elders of The Church and says that The Church is no longer the pillar and foundation of Truth or a passage that nullifies Matthew 18:17, I will join you and your ilk and be my own ruler and only obey myself and what I think it True.

You are still putting words in my mouth and lying about what I have been saying. I have repeatedly stated that any submission to the rule or authority of any man is conditional. Not even you would obey a priest if He told you to murder someone would you?

 

[Pearl]

has anyone read the untwisting scripture series?

I never heard of it.

 

[quietthinker]

has anyone read the untwisting scripture series?

I'm flat out untwisting the twisting conclusions folk draw from reading the untwisted scriptures.....although I must admit, some of what I read is alarming.

 

[Marymog]

You are still putting words in my mouth and lying about what I have been saying. I have repeatedly stated that any submission to the rule or authority of any man is conditional. Not even you would obey a priest if He told you to murder someone would you?

Lol Brakelite....Of course I wouldn't murder someone if a priest told me to....stop being dramatic.

According to your previous post (1, uno, singular) your 'condition' for submitting to Church leaders is that "they themselves are (to be) submitted to Christ and teach the truth". Do you really understand what you are saying in those 10 words Brakelite? You are saying that 'I, Brakelite, will determine if a Church leader is submitted to Christ and teaching the truth. When I, Brakelite, determine that they are teaching the truth then I will submit to them'. Give me an honest answer Brakelite. In all your years of searching, have you found a Church leader that meets your conditions?

I assumed we were sticking to what Scripture says about Church elders and not making fantastical assumptions that I would murders someone if a priest tells me to.

Did you know that the letters to Titus and Timothy are pastoral letters? Read them as if you were a student of Paul and he was writing them to you. I will wait right here for you............


Oh, you are back!! Good! Now, quote from me any verse in Timothy or Titus that authorizes a pastor to tell a member of The Church to kill someone or violate any of Gods commandments.

 

[Marymog]

Your “men” will answer to God for the blood they have spilled for centuries….(Isa 1:15) Those who support them will suffer the same judgment. (Rev 18:4-5)

You are right Jane, my men will answer to God. When God asks us did you protect the weakest among you from evil murdering armies/gangs of men than invaded your neighborhood, City, State or country my men will say YES, we did Lord. We bought a sword, JUST LIKE YOU TOLD US TO DO, and we saved all those JW's women and children as the JW men cowered in the corner. And the JW men will say, Thank God those Christian men listened to Jesus and bought swords. They saved my family

 

[Marymog]

”Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

There you have it…..who is leaving the vengeance to God? That is an act of faith.…but you don’t see it in Christendom! ‘Returning evil for evil’ proves that Christ has never set foot in your church….or any church that supports the heinous warfare of this 21st century. God does not sanction political bloodshed because of who is ruling this world and controlling its entire corrupt political structure. (1 John 5:19)

Hey Jane,

As Scripture says, if possible, I will leave the vengeance to God.

C'mon Jane!! You do realize that those verses don't mean 'the guy who has just killed your family, offer him a sandwich and water'. And when he goes to your neighbor's house with the bloody sword that he just used to kill your family yell at him and say, Hey, enemy of mine, they don't have food over there. Come back over here, I've got more food and water'!

 

[Marymog]

You see, this just proves how little you know of the Bible……the obedience of the apostles is our model…..they obeyed their ruling authorities EXCEPT when those authorities told them to abstain from doing what Christ had commanded them to do…..

Read about the incident that occurred in Acts 5….

V 25-29…”But someone came and reported to them: “Look! The men you put in prison are in the temple, standing and teaching the people.” 26 Then the captain went off with his officers and brought them in, but without violence, because they were afraid of being stoned by the people.

27 So they brought them and stood them before the Sanʹhe·drin. Then the high priest questioned them 28 and said: “We strictly ordered you not to keep teaching on the basis of this name, and yet look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.” 29 In answer Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”

And there it is again….the scriptural answer is not your church’s answer is it?
Obey God first in all things…NOT MEN.

Jesus said to “love your enemies”…..but the church system, (Catholic and Protestant) in currying favor with the world, (James 4:4) wants to kill them.
Like the Pharisee, the RCC along with the rest of Christendom, just does whatever suits their own agenda, and justifies it to their members who swallow it all down like cool-ade. Patriotism is mistaken for Christianity.

All the things you accuse others of doing, is done by your own “men”…..the jig is up….God is lifting the lid on the whole sordid mess…..just wait and see who it is that has been leading so many down the wrong path for centuries….

I asked for a passage from Scripture that nullifies "Obey those who rule over you" and it seems you are saying that Acts 5:29 is that passage?
Well, it's not the passage that nullifies the commands to obey those who rule over us. In FULL CONTEXT The Apostles were following the orders of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit to preach/teach about Jesus but they weren't following the unlawful order from the leaders of the Jewish leaders NOT to preach about Him. What happened in vs 34-39 Jane? A Jewish leader told the other leaders to let them preach about Jesus sooooo they did allow them (after they flogged them). They followed the rule of a man, a teacher of the law, who nullified the other men's rule.

Also, to put all of Scripture into context, Jesus told the Apostles "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” And The Apostles (the leaders of The Church) at the Council of Jerusalem, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, decided what all Christians are to adhere to. The Jewish leaders, in that scenario, were not hearing God so the order they gave (not to preach about Jesus) was invalid. The Apostles order upon all Christians was valid.

You obey your men of the JW denomination, but you chastise me and my ilk for obeying my men? Hypocritical?

Sorry to bust your bubble with facts instead of opinions........Mary

 

[Marymog]

I look at one passage?! That was you, Mary, using Luke 22:36.

(Really, you make it seem like the Bible contradicts itself.)

Lol....NOPE, I wasn't looking at one passage. I was looking at BOTH and saying one doesn't cancel out the other. YOU were looking at only 1 passage and suggesting that it is the only passage in regard to this matter. It's not. There is a balance since Scripture doesn't contradict itself. I have made it clear that Scripture does NOT contradict itself. YOU are suggesting it does.

Christs DOES command to love one another and our enemies (BTW enemies doesn't mean someone trying to kill you). But that passage doesn't nullify our right to defend ourselves with the sword he told us to obtain to defend ourselves. Why did he command us to buy a sword THC? Was it for looks? Makes us look intimidating? Maybe nobody would mess with us if whe have a sword attached to our side? Is that your theory?

 

[Marymog]

So, kill others to save this life we’re living?

Nope THC, I never said that, and Scripture doesn't teach that. YOU are not looking at the big picture and accuse me of not looking at the big picture. YOU take a few lines from Scripture that fit what your men have taught you instead of looking at all of Scripture in context and finding the balance. YOU keep suggesting that the passages you provide nullify my passages when I am saying there is a balance.

Killing others (murder) is a violation of Scripture. Defending yourself and others from being killed (by being murdered or in war) is not a violation of Scripture. Show me one passage from Scripture that says you are to allow someone to kill you or others and I will join you and your ilk.

Patient Mary

 

[Brakelite]

John 5:15-17…after healing a man on the Sabbath….(Jesus was a Jew and still under law at that time)
”The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during the Sabbath. 17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”

Not sure why you quoted that scripture. What are you saying?

There are more important trees to bark up…..the Sabbath is no longer required of Christians….though anyone can have a day of rest….to worship and concentrate on spiritual things…..there is no law against that.

Well, when you stand before Jesus and He asks you why would you think that He abrogated His 4th Commandment, I hope you've got a better answer than you are offering people here.

Please provide scripture that says it is a requirement…

Exodus 20:8. Remember... You are trying hard to forget. And when you do remember, you rationalise and make excuses.

and that God’s early servants observed a Sabbath…

Among those who were attracted to the apostolic witness to Jesus in the synagogues beyond Palestine were Jews and Gentiles/Greeks (Acts 13:48; 14:1; 18:4; 19:10); former Gentiles (proselytes); Gentiles who feared God (Acts 10:2, 22, 35; 13:16, 26) and Gentiles who worshipped God (Acts 13:43, 50; 16:14; 17:4,17; 18:7). All these groups included both men and women (Acts 13:50; 16:13,14; 17:4,12; 22:4). Consequently it is safe to conclude that all Paul’s Jewish converts and a large portion of the Gentiles that accepted his message had the prior practice of attending the synagogues on the Sabbath. The ethnic diversity of Paul’s missionary success in the synagogues is reflected in the membership of his assemblies: Jew and Greek (Romans 1:16; 2:9, 10; 3:9; 10:12; 1 Corinthians 10:32; 12:13; Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11); circumcised and uncircumcised (Romans 3:30; 4:9, 11; 1 Corinthians 7:18; Galatians 2:7; Colossians 3:11); Jew/circumcised and (Romans 3:29; 9:24; 15:8,9; Galatians 2:14); slave and free (1 Corinthians 7:22; 12:13; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:11); weak and strong (Romans 14:1; 15:1); male and female (Galatians 3:28); barbarian and Scythian (Colossians 3:11).

The word ekklˉesia, which Paul uses 62 times, means an assembly, a gathering together; it does not mean church as a building or an administrative structure. The early believers, Jew and Gentile, gathered together as an assembly (1 Corinthians 11:17), that is, in the same location and at the same time. Paul speaks of the whole assembly coming together (1 Corinthians 14:23a). The language of assembling together is frequent “when you come together as a church [assembly]” (1 Corinthians 11:18) and elsewhere (Acts 15:30; 1 Corinthians 11:17, 20, 33, 34; 14:26).


The question might now be asked: “When would such a mixed assembly of Jews and Gentiles—both of whom to a large degree had attended synagogues on the Sabbath—gather together in the name of Jesus? The only feasible reply is “on the Seventh-day Sabbath”. Then why does Paul never quote the fourth commandment? For the same reason that he never cites the first, second or third commandments, that is, they were so well known and so widely practised that they were assumed: One God (Romans 3.30; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Ephesians 4:6), no idols (1 Corinthians 10:14; 2 Corinthians 6:16); reverence for God (Matthew 6:9; Luke 11:2; 2 Timothy 2:19); Sabbath (mentioned 71 times in the NT without any indication of its cessation).


In turning to the Gospels it should be remembered that they post-date Paul’s letters. Hence they reflect the interests of the communities for whom they were written. This is widely recognised today. To quote Daniel J Harrington (Catholic): “They were expressed in such a way as not only to describe Jesus in his original setting but also to address the problems facing the Christian communities of a later time.”

Six of Jesus’ Sabbath healings involved chronic conditions, thereby indicating that acts of compassion were compatible with it and therefore brooked no delay (Mark 1:21–28; Luke 4:31–37; Matthew 12:9–14; Mark 3:1–6; Luke 6: 6–11; Luke 14:1–6; John 5:1–15; 7:21–24; John 9:1–34). Thus Jesus made it plain that it was consistent with the Sabbath to do good, to heal, to save life, and to free those bound by the Evil One (Mark 3:4; Matthew 12:12; Luke 6:9; 13:16). Several of Jesus’ sayings affirm the Sabbath: “The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of humankind and not humankind to meet the requirements of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), or “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28; Matthew 12:8). Why would the Gospel author remember these sayings, if in his day the Sabbath was no longer observed? Members of the early Christian assemblies would read these healings and sayings of Jesus not as addressing whether to honour the Sabbath but how to. As James Dunn (Church of Scotland) notes: “The question under debate is not whether the Sabbath should be observed, but how it should be observed.”

There is a connection but it is a principle, not a command in Genesis

Well, Jesus made the day holy. I find it rather inconceivable to think the Lord didn't tell Adam about it considering it was Adams first day alive

Lol Brakelite....Of course I wouldn't murder someone if a priest told me to....stop being dramatic.

Many Catholic generals, priests, and common people over the course of many centuries did exactly that, and Jesuits promise with an oath to do exactly that when required, so I had to ask. I don't know if you are a Jesuit, or even a man, but I'm glad you admit that full unconditional obedience and submission is not right.

You are saying that 'I, Brakelite, will determine if a Church leader is submitted to Christ and teaching the truth. When I, Brakelite, determine that they are teaching the truth then I will submit to them'

No, it isn't brakelite determining whether someone is teaching heresy. It is the scriptures that testify to the truth, and yet even Jesus said that we as individuals do have the wisdom to discern truth from error.

 

[Brakelite]

In all your years of searching, have you found a Church leader that meets your conditions?

Of course. Are you suggesting there aren't any church leaders who aren't submitted to Jesus?

 

[Brakelite]

Brakelite. In all your years of searching, have you found a Church leader that meets your conditions?

KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And if the scriptures aren't available, or we don't know them as well as we might, Jesus gave us another way in order to discern true leaders...


KJV Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are right Jane, my men will answer to God. When God asks us did you protect the weakest among you from evil murdering armies/gangs of men than invaded your neighborhood, City, State or country my men will say YES, we did Lord. We bought a sword, JUST LIKE YOU TOLD US TO DO, and we saved all those JW's women and children as the JW men cowered in the corner. And the JW men will say, Thank God those Christian men listened to Jesus and bought swords. They saved my family

You are a twister of scripture…..but perhaps you don’t even know it….? Indoctrination is a strong influence in spiritual matters….the devil is a good teacher who makes evil appear to be good, and vice versa.

When God asks us “did you protect the weakest among you from evil”? How will your church answer when they were the ones perpetrating the evil….taking the lives of thousands of people who just wanted the church to tell the truth…..but how dare they demand that !…….off to be burned at the stake!

Tell us why the Vatican is so wealthy but so many Catholics live in dire poverty?

My goodness, what a bill of goods you have been sold…..if you really have that much faith in an such a corrupt institution with its sordid history, I can only pity you the end that will come upon all those who ignore God’s commands to create their own religion, far removed from anything Christ taught, and substituted it for the truth of God’s word….
We will all find out soon enough…..

 

[Marymog]

You are a twister of scripture…..but perhaps you don’t even know it….? Indoctrination is a strong influence in spiritual matters….the devil is a good teacher who makes evil appear to be good, and vice versa.

When God asks us “did you protect the weakest among you from evil”? How will your church answer when they were the ones perpetrating the evil….taking the lives of thousands of people who just wanted the church to tell the truth…..but how dare they demand that !…….off to be burned at the stake!

Tell us why the Vatican is so wealthy but so many Catholics live in dire poverty?

My goodness, what a bill of goods you have been sold…..if you really have that much faith in an such a corrupt institution with its sordid history, I can only pity you the end that will come upon all those who ignore God’s commands to create their own religion, far removed from anything Christ taught, and substituted it for the truth of God’s word….
We will all find out soon enough…..

Jane, your profile statement fits you: What I post are my personal beliefs......Thank you for your above personal beliefs. I choose to stick with facts and Scripture.

Sooooo any denomination or man that doesn't adhere to JW doctrine is a twister of Scripture and the devil is a good teacher to them? Well, that makes up %99.9 of Christianity

The Church, your church, every church has men in it with flaws that sin. Soooo when God asks us “did you protect the weakest among you from evil” every denomination will have to say, No God we didn't always protect the weakest. The JW's will have to say, No God we didn't protect the weakest because we don't believe in defending women and children as they are being killed. WE didn't buy a sword like you told us to and we just turned the other cheek.

The Vatican (The Church) is wealthy AND The Church is the largest religious charitable organization in the world. Did you know that? But you seem to think that if there is a Catholic living in poverty it is the fault of The Church? You CLEARLY don't know world politics and how the world works. How about this Jane: Why hasn't the JW's gone in and helped all those Catholics in poverty? Are there any JW's living in poverty? Hmmmmm.......Me gonna guess there are JW's living in poverty!!;)

Yes, after 2,000 years The Church does have a sordid history. And in the very short history of the creation of the JW denomination, so does yours:

Authorities charge 5 more in probe of child sexual abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses.

Alleged victims of Jehovah's Witness convinced to participate in 'energy sessions', court documents claim

The member of the Jehovah's Witnesses church facing more than 50 charges, including rape and torture, has withdrawn his bail application as new details about the allegations against him emerge.

www.abc.net.au

Jehovah's Witness elders were 'spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt', court told

Mark Sewell, 53, has denied 12 sex charges against girls and women across a 10-year period, at Merthyr Crown Court

www.walesonline.co.uk

‘Everybody agreed they were guilty’: Multi-million dollar verdicts deliver legal blow to Jehovah’s Witnesses

Two multi-million dollar verdicts deliver legal blow to Jehovah’s Witnesses; ‘everybody agreed they were guilty’

www.kcra.com

Now I could go on and on and on about the abuse and corruption in your church with your men..........but me thinks that Jane may want to bow out and look at the log in her own eye?

All of Christianity believes the JW indoctrination that started in the late 1800's to create their own religion is far removed from anything Christ taught. But Jane's personal belief is that everyone else is wrong and she is right.

Keeping it real with facts instead of personal beliefs......Mary

 

[Marymog]

KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And if the scriptures aren't available, or we don't know them as well as we might, Jesus gave us another way in order to discern true leaders...


KJV Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Nice try dodge ball. Here is the question again: In all your years of searching, have you found a Church leader that meets your conditions?

 

[Marymog]

Of course. Are you suggesting there aren't any church leaders who aren't submitted to Jesus?

Nice. You found a Church leader that meets your conditions. Are you still under their tutelage?

You already know who my church leaders are. Who is yours? Or what denomination is it that has this leader that meets YOUR conditions?

And to answer your silly question: I have never suggested, implied or said that there aren't any church leaders who aren't submitted to Jesus. The opposite it actually true. I have made it very clear that there are Church leaders who are submitted to Jesus soooo your question is very bizarre to say the least!!! YOU are the

 

[amigo de christo]

Probably only a better understanding of evil.

The more we learn the bible , the truth , we will see what contradicts the truth .
In other words better to learn the bible well . THEN if anyone cometh along
and tries to differ off from that truth , BINGO YOU KNOW its evil . IF it contradicts
the words of Christ , then ooops its evil .
THERE are many , so very many versions of evil that a man cannot number them in two thousand lifetimes .
BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH . Thus if anyting cometh along and triest to alter it , IT BE FALSE .