WWJD with LGBTQ?

[Marcipa]

Where did Jesus say that?
Have you seen this topic?

Where is the real abomination? - The context of Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13

Perhaps you still need to read the OP, as well.

/

If you read your bible, an abomination is a perversion. Homosexuality is considered a perversion.

 

[BarneyFife]

Off-the-wall?

What ever are you talking about?

.

Humphrey Bogart is serious business with me.

.

 

[Adrift]

God doesn't heal 100% of the people we don't pray for.

If God healed 1% of the people we prayed, would it be worth it?

Here's a personal testimony. I have no idea about the results on this one. But...
If there was no healing, then it was much to do about nothing.

Vision like an eagle

I recall it was a Sunday evening service at church. We had a local guest speaker I was familiar with.
After the sermon/teaching he was praying for people at the front of the church, the altar area.
I had gone down to help. Sometimes people go down when they are overwhelmed by the Spirit.
I was there as a catcher. I stood behind those being prayed for to make sure they had
a soft landing if they went down, Worship music was playing in the background.

Everyone had been prayed for, but I remained at the front worshiping God and enjoying his presence.
The song with a lyric "on eagles wings" was playing and so I stretched out my arms and swayed like and eagle in flight.
Just then the minister stepped forward and put a hand on my forehead declaring out loud, "Vision like an eagle!"
It startled me, I didn't anticipate it. But I received what he prophesied over me with a nod and a "Yes."

Nothing unusual happened in that moment. So I went me way thinking it was for another time. Indeed.

In the following weeks I began to have a recurring picture in my mind;s eye.
I recognized it as a familiar street in a neighboring city. I had no idea what it meant.
But it happened several times. And then stopped.

Several weeks later I was in the downtown area of my town on my bicycle.
I finished my business and was turning around to go home when I remember the area in the vision,
Since I wasn't far away, I thought I should ride over there and see if there was something there for me.

I rode up one side of the street looking at all the store fronts and anyone that might be there.
For some reason I was completely oblivious to what was happening right across the street. - LOL

I rode as far as I thought I needed to and decided to cross the street in the middle of the block
and go back on the other side. It was then that I notice a woman examining the back of her car as if it was damaged.
I also noticed that she looked rather sickly. A very pale complexion. Hmm... ???

I crossed the street and went past her. At that Moment God spoke to me loudly. "Go talk to that woman."
At that moment I also noticed the squad car at the scene of an accident that I had overlooked earlier.
As I turned my bike around, I asked God what I should say to her. My question was met with silence.
So typical for these encounters. - LOL

The woman was walking toward me so I stopped my bike. I needed to talk to her. What should I say?
As she neared I spoke up. "It looks like there was an accident here." She affirmed my comment and said she had been
hit by a car coming home from a doctor's appointment. At this point I was face to face with the woman.

She did look VERY sickly. I noticed that her hair was either falling out or growing back, not sure which.
And there were bumps on her head that looked like cancerous growths. So I asked here if she had cancer.

She conceded that she did indeed have cancer. I asked if I could pray for her. She agreed to let me do that.
I dismounted my bike and asked if I could lay a hand on her shoulder. Yes. I stumbled through an awkward prayer.
But I felt God's presence surrounding us. When I finished, she made the sign of the cross on her chest.
I assumed she was Catholic. I bid her well and left for home on my bicycle.

Tears streamed down my face as I considered what had just happened.
The logistics of this divine appointment blew my mind.

/

Reading that gave me a vision too. I saw a Pentecostal passing a snake from hand to hand with his head tossed back while doing a jig and talking in tongues.

 

[St. SteVen]

Just don't be late for church. People will notice and talk.

I should add, that we have our services LIVE online.
So, I will will plan to "attend" in that way.
But I much prefer being there in person.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Humphrey Bogart is serious business with me.

.

Seriously funny!

Is that an oxymoron?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

If you read your bible, an abomination is a perversion. Homosexuality is considered a perversion.

Why should I believe you?
You already told us that Jesus called homosexuality an abomination.
I asked you where he said that. No response.
Maybe I'm not the one who needs to read their Bible?

Do you support everything written in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20?
- The death penalty for sexual "misconduct"?
- The support of polygamy except in the case of a man marrying his wife's sister as a rival wife?

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Reading that gave me a vision too. I saw a Pentecostal passing a snake from hand to hand with his head tossed back while doing a jig and talking in tongues.

Is that a biblical activity? (yes)
Just to be clear, I'm not promoting such. (the snake part)

Do you remember this about the Apostle Paul?

Acts 28:3-6 NIV
Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire,
a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand.
4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand,
they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer;
for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.”
5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.
6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead;
but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him,
they changed their minds and said he was a god.

/

 

[Adrift]

Is that a biblical activity? (yes)
Just to be clear, I'm not promoting such. (the snake part)

Do you remember this about the Apostle Paul?

Acts 28:3-6 NIV
Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire,
a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand.
4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand,
they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer;
for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.”
5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.
6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead;
but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him,
they changed their minds and said he was a god.

/

If Paul would have jumped off a 400 foot cliff onto the rocks below and lived, that doesn't imply that we should all go jump off a cliff. However, I think I'm safe in saying that many would try.

 

[Marcipa]

Didn't need a response. You knew where it was. Baiting me isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

[St. SteVen]

If Paul would have jumped off a 400 foot cliff onto the rocks below and lived, that doesn't imply that we should all go jump off a cliff. However, I think I'm safe in saying that many would try.

I agree.
But here's the real test.
If God asked you to jump off a 400 foot cliff (and you knew it was God) would you do it?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Didn't need a response. You knew where it was. Baiting me isn't going to get you anywhere.

Baiting?
Here below are the search results in the New Testament for the word abomination in the King James Version of the Bible.
Nowhere does Jesus say that homosexuality is an abomination.

But since you falsely accused me of baiting you. I am putting you on IGNORE.
I suggest you do the same. Goodbye.

• Matthew 24:15
  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
  
  
• Mark 13:14
  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
  
  
• Luke 16:15
  And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
  
  
• Revelation 17:4
  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
  
  
• Revelation 17:5
  And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
  
  
• Revelation 21:27
  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

/

 

[Adrift]

I agree.
But here's the real test.
If God asked you to jump off a 400 foot cliff (and you knew it was God) would you do it?

/

God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac at Moriah. God did this to test Abraham's faith. If I KNEW it was God? Yea verily! I'd even do a double backflip on the way down.

 

[St. SteVen]

God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac at Moriah. God did this to test Abraham's faith. If I KNEW it was God? Yea verily! I'd even do a double backflip on the way down.

Reminds me of a story.

An atheist was enjoying the view from a hilltop cliff,
when he suddenly lost his footing and slid downward.
At the last moment his hand latched onto a small tree
at the edge of the drop. Dangling there in obvious peril,
he cried out for help, hoping someone would hear him.

God spoke to him in that moment. "Let go, I will catch you."
The atheist called out again. "Is there anyone else up there?"

/

 

[Adrift]

Reminds me of a story.

An atheist was enjoying the view from a hilltop cliff,
when he suddenly lost his footing and slid downward.
At the last moment his hand latched onto a small tree
at the edge of the drop. Dangling there in obvious peril,
he cried out for help, hoping someone would hear him.

God spoke to him in that moment. "Let go, I will catch you."
The atheist called out again. "Is there anyone else up there?"

/

The famous Hollywood atheist W.C. Fields was asked, on his deathbed, "Your an atheist, why are you holding a Bible?" He responded "Just looking for any loopholes"

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi, Aunty!

I'm just spitballing here, but it seems to me that if He weren't involved, we'd be extinct.

Perhaps I could be accused of engaging in semantics here, but I'm not sure it would be just or, at least, fair.

If God's creative power isn't "involved" (and I think this word is key), exactly what force is behind procreation?

Unless we're going to subscribe to some form of Deism here, aren't we going to have to at least agree on 'degrees of involvement' rather than a zero-sum equation arrangement?

Tendencies toward certain sins are linked to genetic mutations and although, at present, there doesn't seem to be any that are demonstrably linked directly to gender dysphoria (and I don't expect there ever will be), most sexually aberrant behavior is believed, by serious researchers, to be linked to the same genetic mutations that are the culprit (when left unchecked by medicine/lifestyle intervention—barring any especially miraculous, divine intervention, of course, which I'd never rule out) of other addictive behaviors that involve malfunctioning regulation of serotonin, dopamine, and other neurotransmitters that cause and temper us to, among other things, seek out food when we're hungry and procreate so we won't die out, without carrying things too far.

(And how's that for a run-on sentence? ;) )

Am I being unreasonable? :)

.

Hey Barn ….I never find you unreasonable….I love me a good pillow fight……so I went back over my post to see why I had two responses that seemed to completely miss the point I was making…..

God created us all perfect…no defects whatsoever in our physical, emotional or spiritual make up in the beginning….all humans needed to do to remain “perfect” was to obey their Creator in all things.

Why was obedience such a necessity, that disobedience carried the death penalty? Free will. We are all in this awful situation because three individuals, who knew God’s commands, (and the penalty for disobeying them) abused that privilege. All knew exactly what they were doing because regardless of the penalty, they were under obligation to obey their Sovereign Ruler. None were created with a sinful component in their makeup. That sinful component came with disobedience.

Free will is one of the factors granted to humankind that is missing in other earthly creatures….the ability to foresee future events by the use of imagination. Humans alone have the ability to plan the future because they alone have been given dominion over the earth as its caretakers…..being “made in God’s image and likeness”, means the ability to think on our feet, and know by our intellectual capacity, what to do to problem solve by foreseeing what our actions may result in.
In the animal kingdom, instinct is programmed into every soul. They are designed for self sufficiency and with a ready food supply for every species. They eat, drink and procreate without having to plan anything. It is all planned for them……not so with us. We love to plan things……

To assume that God is responsible for our “individual creation” is flawed. The Scriptures do not tell us that our lives are predetermined at all…..but, thanks to our first parents, we are born with genetic faults that alter our lives in so many ways…some very obvious and some not so obvious.

We didn’t get to choose our parents any more than they got to choose which sperm would unite with which egg……it‘s all very random, which makes for amazing variety when we see how our children are all different to one another. We cannot plan how their personalities will be molded by factors beyond our control. Kids raised in the same family with the same upbringing, will become who they want to be, not who we want them to be necessarily.

So my point was that, God is not up there determining who will be born and what their lives will turn out to be. It is virtually a genetic lottery.
Part of that lottery are the hiccups that occur which create all manner of problems for some individuals, whilst others seem to breeze through life without much drama at all. How could God be responsible for that?
What kind of loving God would he be if that was the case? Compare individuals who are born with disabilities that can never be rectified, to those born to privilege who do not know hunger or want or the struggle to do even the simplest task.

We see with the whole gender issues now, that hormones are involved, and these are powerful for dictating who we are in many ways, but especially sexually. Yet the genetics have been involved for a very long time as we see that homosexuality is as old as human culture in the world. So what is adding to this now, at this juncture, when it is exploding in the world to a frightening degree? Christians are now having to make some serious choices as their children and (in some cases their parents) are opting to change their gender?

As SDA’s are health conscious people, you know how diet affects us in our daily lives. Some people take diets to extremes choosing a vegan lifestyle, whilst others cannot get enough meat in their diet. Don’t get me started on junk food. “We are what we eat” is an old saying. Hippocrates was credited with saying…”let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food”.…good advice.

In today’s world, we are in a unique period in history…..these are the “last days” of satan’s world rulership and he has turned all the dials up to “MAX”…..everything that sustains life is now polluted to such a degree that it is almost impossible to grow healthy food even in our own gardens. The air we breathe…the water we drink…the food we eat is all polluted with chemicals designed to rob us of our health, and there is no real way to avoid these essentials. With such deep penetration of chemical additives in everything we eat and drink, hormones are being affected. Certain chemicals they identify as “endocrine disrupters” mess with the hormones to produce these weird gender issues in certain individuals who have a propensity to develop them. Those who are affected have to cope with something that is not a choice, but is a physical demand…..these are not to be blamed but at least they need to be understood.

If Christians are so affected, then they have some serious choices to make……we know how God feels about same sex relationships, which he did not design humans to engage in. Sacrifice will be necessary, but no more so than someone with a serious disability might also face in not having their physical needs met that way. No one ever died from not having sex….and sacrifices are necessary to please God, who will richly reward those who make them.

God did not cause any of these problems…and he has promised to help those who come to him for comfort and understanding in their circumstances. The whole reason why God can allow the devil to go this far, is to teach us what depths disobedience leads to……he has promised to “undo the works of the devil” and lead us back to sinless perfection in paradise if we do not lose sight of why we are here in the first place, and begin to engage in self pity….that is exactly what satan wants…it drives a wedge of “that’s not fair” between us and Jehovah. Our personal sense of justice is offended (part of being created in God’s image) and we can lose sight of the big picture. Only then can satan undermine our faith.

Sorry to be so “wordy” again, but I call ‘‘em as I see ‘em…..with God’s word being the light on the path, of course.

 

[JohnDB]

WWJD with LGBTQ?
Send them to hell as He is going to do with 95% of all of mankind.

A sexual.preference and conduct as part of a lifestyle over the objections of God is of course an unrepentant sin. And a lifestyle that says that a person has no faith or belief in God that supercedes their own desires.

 

[Marcipa]

Love in the form of tolerance is not love. It is apathy. Found this interesting.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This indicates to me a poor self-image on your part.
Were we not fearfully and wonderfully made?
What is the wonderful part?

A good father knows his children individually. They are MORE than a product of procreation.
Each one precious in his sight. Has Father God not shaped and formed each of us?

/

Please refer to my response to @BarneyFife….post #695
We are indeed ‘made in God’s image and likeness’, and the original humans were without defect as direct creations of God…”wonderfully made”…..but God did not create the human race…he gave the first humans the ability to reproduce their own kind. So no, God is not responsible for who we are individually, or what we become….we are. Each are born as a virtual blank canvas, and genetics and life circumstances mold who they become.

And Jehovah is a good Father to his children and knows them well…..those who are “living” in his sight…..but what of those “dead in their trespasses”? These are not acknowledged as his children unless they turn to him and bring their lives into harmony with his requirements. How do we become God’s “sons and daughters”? (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Why did God give Israel such detailed laws that governed every aspect of their lives? Because how would they have known what he required of them if they had no guidelines to follow? Guided by those laws, the Israelites knew exactly where they stood in relation to their God and his expectations of them. He then gave them their expectations of what he would do for them in exchange for their obedience. Like it or not, humans are “reward oriented”…..that is, we will strive for a reward if we believe that the striving or hardship involved, is worth it….some reality TV shows are based on this. People are placed in unfamiliar and often harsh circumstances, and if they can survive the hardships, there is a big reward.

God is a rewarder.…(Heb 11:6) but the reward is not a bribe, because all humans will benefit from the hardships that God has allowed the devil to bring upon the human race. All of God’s children will reap what they have sown, because they knew what he required of them before they acted. We all know right from wrong….or we should.

 

[Ziggy]

There is also emotional dysfunction and psychological dysfunction which we would call mental illness.

I was thinking about this the other day.
Who determines mental illness and mental health? By what standard? Who's standard?
And is it different today than say 100 years ago?
If mental illness becomes the majority then wouldn't mental health be the dysfunction?
There are a lot of sick people on this earth today and more getting sicker by the minute.
I wonder if at some point mental illness will be the new norm.
And who decides?

hugs

 

[BarneyFife]

Hey Barn ….I never find you unreasonable….I love me a good pillow fight……so I went back over my post to see why I had two responses that seemed to completely miss the point I was making…..

God created us all perfect…no defects whatsoever in our physical, emotional or spiritual make up in the beginning….all humans needed to do to remain “perfect” was to obey their Creator in all things.

Why was obedience such a necessity, that disobedience carried the death penalty? Free will. We are all in this awful situation because three individuals, who knew God’s commands, (and the penalty for disobeying them) abused that privilege. All knew exactly what they were doing because regardless of the penalty, they were under obligation to obey their Sovereign Ruler. None were created with a sinful component in their makeup. That sinful component came with disobedience.

Free will is one of the factors granted to humankind that is missing in other earthly creatures….the ability to foresee future events by the use of imagination. Humans alone have the ability to plan the future because they alone have been given dominion over the earth as its caretakers…..being “made in God’s image and likeness”, means the ability to think on our feet, and know by our intellectual capacity, what to do to problem solve by foreseeing what our actions may result in.
In the animal kingdom, instinct is programmed into every soul. They are designed for self sufficiency and with a ready food supply for every species. They eat, drink and procreate without having to plan anything. It is all planned for them……not so with us. We love to plan things……

To assume that God is responsible for our “individual creation” is flawed. The Scriptures do not tell us that our lives are predetermined at all…..but, thanks to our first parents, we are born with genetic faults that alter our lives in so many ways…some very obvious and some not so obvious.

We didn’t get to choose our parents any more than they got to choose which sperm would unite with which egg……it‘s all very random, which makes for amazing variety when we see how our children are all different to one another. We cannot plan how their personalities will be molded by factors beyond our control. Kids raised in the same family with the same upbringing, will become who they want to be, not who we want them to be necessarily.

So my point was that, God is not up there determining who will be born and what their lives will turn out to be. It is virtually a genetic lottery.
Part of that lottery are the hiccups that occur which create all manner of problems for some individuals, whilst others seem to breeze through life without much drama at all. How could God be responsible for that?
What kind of loving God would he be if that was the case? Compare individuals who are born with disabilities that can never be rectified, to those born to privilege who do not know hunger or want or the struggle to do even the simplest task.

We see with the whole gender issues now, that hormones are involved, and these are powerful for dictating who we are in many ways, but especially sexually. Yet the genetics have been involved for a very long time as we see that homosexuality is as old as human culture in the world. So what is adding to this now, at this juncture, when it is exploding in the world to a frightening degree? Christians are now having to make some serious choices as their children and (in some cases their parents) are opting to change their gender?

As SDA’s are health conscious people, you know how diet affects us in our daily lives. Some people take diets to extremes choosing a vegan lifestyle, whilst others cannot get enough meat in their diet. Don’t get me started on junk food. “We are what we eat” is an old saying. Hippocrates was credited with saying…”let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food”.…good advice.

In today’s world, we are in a unique period in history…..these are the “last days” of satan’s world rulership and he has turned all the dials up to “MAX”…..everything that sustains life is now polluted to such a degree that it is almost impossible to grow healthy food even in our own gardens. The air we breathe…the water we drink…the food we eat is all polluted with chemicals designed to rob us of our health, and there is no real way to avoid these essentials. With such deep penetration of chemical additives in everything we eat and drink, hormones are being affected. Certain chemicals they identify as “endocrine disrupters” mess with the hormones to produce these weird gender issues in certain individuals who have a propensity to develop them. Those who are affected have to cope with something that is not a choice, but is a physical demand…..these are not to be blamed but at least they need to be understood.

If Christians are so affected, then they have some serious choices to make……we know how God feels about same sex relationships, which he did not design humans to engage in. Sacrifice will be necessary, but no more so than someone with a serious disability might also face in not having their physical needs met that way. No one ever died from not having sex….and sacrifices are necessary to please God, who will richly reward those who make them.

God did not cause any of these problems…and he has promised to help those who come to him for comfort and understanding in their circumstances. The whole reason why God can allow the devil to go this far, is to teach us what depths disobedience leads to……he has promised to “undo the works of the devil” and lead us back to sinless perfection in paradise if we do not lose sight of why we are here in the first place, and begin to engage in self pity….that is exactly what satan wants…it drives a wedge of “that’s not fair” between us and Jehovah. Our personal sense of justice is offended (part of being created in God’s image) and we can lose sight of the big picture. Only then can satan undermine our faith.

Sorry to be so “wordy” again, but I call ‘‘em as I see ‘em…..with God’s word being the light on the path, of course.

You're so kind to give such a thoughtful and substantive reply.

I love your passion as an educator and your keenness to understand and navigate intellectually what's going on around you.

I've never really interacted with a Witness before besides a few that have come to my door, and we kind of have a more relaxed atmosphere here, which makes it very interesting.

On the other hand, there are so many here that seem to want mainly to just talk at and past other people. It really takes a year or two to start meeting people you can relate to on a meaningful level. It's just different personality traits at play, I guess.

And sometimes it seems to take a while to get to know and/or appreciate certain folks.

One thing I've noticed is that it's hard to cultivate friendships with folks you have a natural connection with but some pretty grave differences in certain doctrines. And it's probably not any of the issues you might suspect, either. I'd like to say more about that but it would just give awkward stuff away.

So, speaking of "wordy" replies, at least you didn't ramble on, off-topic. It's lucky for me the thread creator is my buddy. :)

(Actually, I'm just bucking for Teacher's Pet ;) )

.