The Case for Eternal Security

[simplefaith1]

A born again Believer, can "fall from Grace"., and become a LEGALIST.

You can become A Legalist., and that is what Paul is explaining to those Galatians who are "in the Flesh", and "no longer obey the Truth". he told YOU.

So, when He says.. "I make myself a Transgressor" because i build again those things which The Cross Destroyed"..

= In other words....once your faith is broken, you will get into a carnal mind, that BELIEVES that you are to keep the LAW to try to please God and Stay saved..

That is LEGALISM... "fallen from Grace".

There you are, @simplefaith1

Go and read Philippians 3, as Paul said that he was 'BLAMELESS in the LAW" and all "his righteousness" that you are trying to describe, as "self righteousness" (law keeping), is : "DUNG".

There is your Theology as Paul is explaining to you.



No,
people who are seeking to be justified by the law, are "fallen from Grace" which means they have lost the Truth. or as Paul said of those Law and sin obsessed Galatians..."you no longer obey the Truth

Paul says....."that you no longer OBEY the Truth", and are "in the Flesh"..

"the Flesh" is... "im trying to keep law to be saved and stay saved" because Im "fallen from Grace"..


The Flesh is....>"if i dont forget to confess all my sin, then when i die i go to heaven".. (I hope i didnt forget any, as i lived to be 97)..

Good luck with that, Legalist.



Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:30 that Jesus is our Justification, Sanctification and Redemption

(you'll need a real bible) or you are going to continue to be stuck in reverse, regarding your theology and belief system, @simplefaith1


No, .......the Law is power of sin.

"Christ came to redeem the born again from the CURSE of THE LAW""""



Its to become "in the flesh" "fallen from Grace"......going backwards to try to be saved by the OLD Covenant, that is "moses law" and "10 commandments".

See, Christ is the NEW Covenant, and that is "not under the Law, but under Grace".

Paul wrote:

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Eph2:4&5

God will accept you as you are when you come to him, under a righteousness of faith in Christ. You may be a drunk, womaniser, thief, and constantly use foul language, a true slave to sin, but you are instantly justified by faith in Christ. However, you cannot stay in that state. As Paul says, you cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness (Rom6:17-19) but it takes time. It is this justification of your Christianity, your faith that is being mentioned in the passage. (Gal2:17&18)

So, let’s take the example given. A man is a drunk, constantly has affairs, is a constant thief and continuously uses foul language. He accepts Christ as his saviour. Immediately he stops having affairs, the stealing stops, and the foul language lessens. So evidence of his new found faith is plain for all to see. But drinking is not so easy, he has been the slave of alcohol for decades. One night he goes to church and heartily joins in the service, worshipping and praising God while his breath smells of alcohol. What would someone think who did not understand the message? ‘’’If this person is saved Christ must promote sin for here he is heartily joining in the service with his breath smelling of alcohol.’’’ However, the man hates the fact he still drinks and is continuing to trust Christ to get him to where he needs to be. He is still entitled to rejoice in his new found salvation, otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. He is standing on a righteousness/justification of faith in Christ, not one of obeying the law/works of the law.

Immediatley after Paul asks the question ‘’Doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin’’: He answers it.

Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.



What had Paul sought so hard to destroy? Righteousness of obeying the law. Therefore, if he returned to that way, and sought to defeat the sin in order to justify his Christianity he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/sinner.

 

[Behold]

Oh Ive been quoting the KJV to you.

As i said, get rid of the NIV.

The KJV is good.

So, just remember..

"Christ came to redeem the born again from the CURSE of the Law".

The Born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace" which means that the Law can't define a CHRISTian as a sinner., as the CHRISTian is "not under THE LAW, but under Grace".

The CHRISTIAN can only be defined as... "made free from sin", having become a "new Creation in Christ"... "one with God"... as "the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God, in Christ".

The Born again, exist in the Kingdom of God, and there is no Moses Law or 10 commandments found there. @simplefaith1

 

[simplefaith1]

As i said, get rid of the NIV.

The KJV is good.

So, just remember..

"Christ came to redeem the born again from the CURSE of the Law".

The Born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace" which means that the Law can't define a CHRISTian as a sinner., as the CHRISTian is "not under THE LAW, but under Grace".

The CHRISTIAN can only be defined as... "made free from sin", having become a "new Creation in Christ"... "one with God"... as "the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God, in Christ".

The Born again, exist in the Kingdom of God, and there is no Moses Law or 10 commandments found there. @simplefaith1

Why can you not understand the basics. You keep robotically repeating the born again are not under the law. How many times should I tell you I agree with that? You might think it is wrong for believers to know in their minds God does not want them to steal, commit adultery, take His name in vain, murder, and you might think it is wrong for believers in their hearts not to want to do those things, but I am assured God would disagree with you

 

[Behold]

So, let’s take the example given. A man is a drunk, constantly has affairs, is a constant thief and continuously uses foul language. He accepts Christ as his saviour. Immediately he stops having affairs,

Christianity is not you trying to be some idea of how you think Jesus behaved........as your performance, before God.

Christianity is for God to Spiritually birth a SINNER, as a Saint., and that is for eternity.

Here is something for you to think about..

When God saves a SINNER, as "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".. God is aware of everything they are going to do, for the rest of their LIFE, after He saves them.

That means that if the Christian watches NETFLIX, or Game of Thrones, or if the Christian cheats on their Taxes, or anything that isn't what they should be doing, ( Carnal deeds) . = God knew what you were going to do, and Saved everyone who Trusts in Christ.....anyway.

Why?
Because the Cross of Christ is the "one time Eternal Sacrifice for SIn"...

It deals with sin....forever., and this Blood Covenant, puts the Believer, apart from the Law's Dominion.

This means that the Law, can never again define the Born again as a sinner.

Now, if this Believer, falls back into trying to keep law as a part of their Faith.......... then their faith is broken, and they are "fallen from Grace".

They are become a : Legalist.

And God only defines them as a "new Creation" in Christ., but THEY do not understand this... and so in that wrong (carnal) mind, their faith is "in the Flesh". =- Self effort.

 

[Behold]

Why can you not understand the basics. You keep robotically repeating the born again are not under the law.

Right.

The OLD Covenant is the LAW.

The NEW Covenant makes you free from the Law.

The born again are "not under the LAW, ... but under GRACE"..//.....

Notice........

"the Law came by Moses. (old covenant) and GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus The Christ'.

= That is the NEW Covenant, and the Born AGAIN are under the NEW......<and are not under LAW.. (Old Covenant).

So, i'll going to leave it there with you,, as its Late in the Middle East....

and thank you for the opportunity to teach a lot on this, as there are readers who are going to be able to read what ive taught you, and they will find more understanding...
So, you have been useful. @simplefaith1 .

 

[simplefaith1]

Christianity is not you trying to be some idea of how you think Jesus behaved........as your performance, before God.

Christianity is for God to Spiritually birth a SINNER, as a Saint., and that is for eternity.

Here is something for you to think about..

When God saves a SINNER, as "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".. God is aware of everything they are going to do, for the rest of their LIFE, after He saves them.

That means that if the Christian watches NETFLIX, or Game of Thrones, or if the Christian cheats on their Taxes, or anything that isn't what they should be doing, ( Carnal deeds) . = God knew what you were going to do, and Saved everyone who Trusts in Christ.....anyway.

Why?
Because the Cross of Christ is the "one time Eternal Sacrifice for SIn"...

It deals with sin....forever., and this Blood Covenant, puts the Believer, apart from the Law's Dominion.

This means that the Law, can never again define the Born again as a sinner.

Now, if this Believer, falls back into trying to keep law as a part of their Faith.......... then their faith is broken, and they are "fallen from Grace".

They are become a : Legalist.

And God only defines them as a "new Creation" in Christ., but THEY do not understand this... and so in that wrong mind, their faith is "in the Flesh". =- Self effort.

All you are showing in the above is your lack of understanding of the message, primarily given by Paul
The christian is not under the law
The christian has no righteousness of obeying the law
However, we do not make void the law by faith KJV.

You are still viewing law as the natural mind understands law to mean in this conversation. So whichever bible translation you read is really not helping you is it
The law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. That is how we all naturally understand law to mean. Jesus died to pay the penalty of transgression of all those who would come to the Father through him. Therefore, law as we all naturally understand law to mean has been abolished for the believer
However, what is written in the law is holy, just and good(Rom7:12) Jesus did not die to abolish what is holy, just and good, he died to end man's condemnation under what is holy, just and good. Hence:
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Be better if you put your hope of understanding in the only one who can lead the believer into spiritual truth, not any certain translation

 

[Adrift]

Christianity is not you trying to be some idea of how you think Jesus behaved........as your performance, before God.

Christianity is for God to Spiritually birth a SINNER, as a Saint., and that is for eternity.

Here is something for you to think about..

When God saves a SINNER, as "Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".. God is aware of everything they are going to do, for the rest of their LIFE, after He saves them.

That means that if the Christian watches NETFLIX, or Game of Thrones, or if the Christian cheats on their Taxes, or anything that isn't what they should be doing, ( Carnal deeds) . = God knew what you were going to do, and Saved everyone who Trusts in Christ.....anyway.

Why?
Because the Cross of Christ is the "one time Eternal Sacrifice for SIn"...

It deals with sin....forever., and this Blood Covenant, puts the Believer, apart from the Law's Dominion.

This means that the Law, can never again define the Born again as a sinner.

Now, if this Believer, falls back into trying to keep law as a part of their Faith.......... then their faith is broken, and they are "fallen from Grace".

They are become a : Legalist.

And God only defines them as a "new Creation" in Christ., but THEY do not understand this... and so in that wrong (carnal) mind, their faith is "in the Flesh". =- Self effort.

I didn't know that watching Netflix was a sin! I may be in real trouble. Do you have a list of the TV shows that are sinful to watch? I honestly just didn't know that. Thanks

 

[St. SteVen]

I didn't know that watching Netflix was a sin! I may be in real trouble. Do you have a list of the TV shows that are sinful to watch? I honestly just didn't know that. Thanks

LOL
I hope that was complete sarcasm.

Otherwise...



/

 

[Jay Ross]

LOL
I hope that was complete sarcasm.

Otherwise...

View attachment 44221

/

Is that a pic ^^^^ of one of your other personalities?

 

[St. SteVen]

Is that a pic ^^^^ of one of your other personalities?

It's Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live.
The original Not Ready for Prime Time Players.

/

 

[Wynona]

Wynona said:
Yes. Salvation has conditions.

That's not a condition for us. 0/1 < keeping score - zero for you/one for me.


That's not a condition for us. 0/2


Everyone will do that in the Age of Restoration. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess...
That's not a condition for us in the here and now. 0/3


That's not a condition for us. 0/4
A benefit... yes. Not a condition.


That's not a condition for us. 0/5
More like a swindle.


That's not a condition for us. 0/6
See 1 Corinthians 3:15. "... as one through the flames."


That counts. Sort of. 1/6


That counts, BUT throws your qualification out the window. 2/6 - I'll give you that one.


That's not a condition for us. 2/7
If that was true, we would all be toast.


Agree, but... That's not a condition for us. 2/8


Ought to? That's not a condition for us. 2/9

Want to try again? - LOL
I believe in second chances.

/

Every sentence wasn't meant to be a condition. But since you conceded two, I proved my statement: salvation has conditions.

No one who is a slave to sin will remain in the Kingdom. But no, that doesn't mean were all toast. We are supposed to die to sin and become slaves of righteousness.

With Jesus and continuing in His Word, its possible.

Many people with fancy titles and degrees believe Christians will never stop sinning in this lifetime. This isn't what Jesus taught. It's a highly cherished theological tradition and a stronghold in people's minds.

Jesus not only has the power to forgive all our past sins but to keep us from stumbling into more sin when we walk in the Spirit. Keeping our minds on things above.

I subscribed to a lot of "grace-based" teaching and preaching for many years. I was stuck in this cycle. I would feel guilty enough to confess and go to the Lord for grace. But once the guilt wore off I just went back to the same sins that brought on that guilt in the first place. I thought this was normal but I couldn't see my faith as valid according to the Scriptures. I kept sinning and repenting, never getting around to helping anyone else with their needs.

I used Jesus to soothe my conscience but not to go and sin no more. So basically, Im saying my former belief in eternal security made me spiritually lazy. Absolutely. This is my main problem with it.

Only the fear of the Lord and continuing to hear Scripture in context out loud gave me any victory. Eternal security cripples the fear of the Lord and any motivation to escape being a slave to sin.

 

[Adrift]

LOL
I hope that was complete sarcasm.

Otherwise...

View attachment 44221

/

It was more like this:

 

[Runningman]

This is typically discussed under the derogatory term OSAS (once saved always saved)
So, I wanted to present the topic under positive terms.
To me, the comparison is between Eternal Security and Eternal Insecurity. (my own derogatory term)

There is still a wall that everyone needs to get past after all the creeds, verses, and commentary are said and done. Each one will be judged according to their works. On a works-based judgement eternal life is either given or not.

Romans 2
6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

 

[St. SteVen]

Romans 2
6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

The word "repay" (vs 6) is interesting in the NT Greek. Which we tend to project a punitive color onto.
A few of the translations render it "reward" and some "render according to".

Romans 2:6 NET (New English Translation)
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father,
and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.


591. apodidómi

Strong's Concordance
apodidómi: to give up, give back, return, restore
Original Word: ἀποδίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apodidómi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-od-eed'-o-mee)
Definition: to give up, give back, return, restore
Usage: (a) I give back, return, restore, (b) I give, render, as due, (c) mid: I sell.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
deliver again, repay, recompense, restore
From apo and didomi; to give away, i.e. Up, over, back, etc. (in various applications) -- deliver (again), give (again), (re-)pay(-ment be made), perform, recompense, render, requite, restore, reward, sell, yield.

/

 

[Rightglory]

Every sentence wasn't meant to be a condition. But since you conceded two, I proved my statement: salvation has conditions.

No one who is a slave to sin will remain in the Kingdom. But no, that doesn't mean were all toast. We are supposed to die to sin and become slaves of righteousness.

With Jesus and continuing in His Word, its possible.

Many people with fancy titles and degrees believe Christians will never stop sinning in this lifetime. This isn't what Jesus taught. It's a highly cherished theological tradition and a stronghold in people's minds.

Jesus not only has the power to forgive all our past sins but to keep us from stumbling into more sin when we walk in the Spirit. Keeping our minds on things above.

I subscribed to a lot of "grace-based" teaching and preaching for many years. I was stuck in this cycle. I would feel guilty enough to confess and go to the Lord for grace. But once the guilt wore off I just went back to the same sins that brought on that guilt in the first place. I thought this was normal but I couldn't see my faith as valid according to the Scriptures. I kept sinning and repenting, never getting around to helping anyone else with their needs.

I used Jesus to soothe my conscience but not to go and sin no more. So basically, Im saying my former belief in eternal security made me spiritually lazy. Absolutely. This is my main problem with it.

Only the fear of the Lord and continuing to hear Scripture in context out loud gave me any victory. Eternal security cripples the fear of the Lord and any motivation to escape being a slave to sin.

Philippians 2:12-16.

 

[APAK]

There is still a wall that everyone needs to get past after all the creeds, verses, and commentary are said and done. Each one will be judged according to their works. On a works-based judgement eternal life is either given or not.

Romans 2
6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

More to the point and with more precision RM, isn't it really the judgement of the works of the heart, its fruit that it bears, that is reflected by works of the mind and hands and feet?

 

[Runningman]

More to the point and with more precision RM, isn't it really the judgement of the works of the heart, its fruit that it bears, that is reflected by works of the mind and hands and feet?

I guess it's a bit of both. Think about the Good Samaritan. Isn't it one thing to wish someone the best, but then do nothing for them when it counts?

 

[APAK]

I guess it's a bit of both. Think about the Good Samaritan. Isn't it one thing to wish someone the best, but then do nothing for them when it counts?

Not really. The one who wished someone all the best was lying to God, himself and to that other person, as he did not at least ask that person for assistance without necessary taking over the scene. His true intentions were exposed, to just give an empty lip-service. His heart produced bad fruit, and he will be judged on this, whether for his gain or loss..

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Well first off, who is saying that the person being saved is not part of the engagement to Christ as God presides over his affairs of rebirth? Not me...

You claim to not be a calvinist and yet you suggest the Lord pre-determines who is saved and who is not.

If they have not yet believed in their heart, confessed Jesus as their Lord with their mouth while repenting from their sins, then they are not born again according to God's Word.

This faith of word that is near us, does not come from you Dan, it is of the Spirit of God.

I never said the Holy Spirit is not involved. That does NOT mean the Lord pre-determined who will be saved while preventing all others from getting saved as the calvinists falsely claim.

We cannot generate these words unto righteousness (verse 10) of saving faith on our own, from our own will. It must come from God's interaction with us

And yet, if a man does not choose to accept Jesus their Lord and Savior and believe / confess / repent then they will not be saved. God's Word teaches that we are co-laborers with God meaning we have to cooperate and walk in agreement with Him.

He created us in HIS Image which is why we have free will - we can accept the Lord and get saved or reject the Lord and go to hell. They Lord allows men to do both.

God does not move on people and they magically get saved and we have no part in it as the calvinists falsely claim due to their ignorance of scripture.

Joshua 24:15
choose you this day whom ye will serve

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

God is the only one who gives us as a gift this saving faith Dan, not you.

I never said God is not the One giving the gift of eternal life... we see in scripture He has given this gift to A:LL people but you'll notice few actually come to the Lord so they that may have life by believing / confessing / repenting

You're comments are still coming from a calvinist point of view which is why one would say you are calvinist.

 

[APAK]

You claim to not be a calvinist and yet you suggest the Lord pre-determines who is saved and who is not.

If they have not yet believed in their heart, confessed Jesus as their Lord with their mouth while repenting from their sins, then they are not born again according to God's Word.





I never said the Holy Spirit is not involved. That does NOT mean the Lord pre-determined who will be saved while preventing all others from getting saved as the calvinists falsely claim.





And yet, if a man does not choose to accept Jesus their Lord and Savior and believe / confess / repent then they will not be saved. God's Word teaches that we are co-laborers with God meaning we have to cooperate and walk in agreement with Him.

He created us in HIS Image which is why we have free will - we can accept the Lord and get saved or reject the Lord and go to hell. They Lord allows men to do both.

God does not move on people and they magically get saved and we have no part in it as the calvinists falsely claim due to their ignorance of scripture.

Joshua 24:15
choose you this day whom ye will serve

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live






I never said God is not the One giving the gift of eternal life... we see in scripture He has given this gift to A:LL people but you'll notice few actually come to the Lord so they that may have life by believing / confessing / repenting

You're comments are still coming from a calvinist point of view which is why one would say you are calvinist.

Well Dan what can I say that you have not said already. You labelled me a Calvinist that I do not own at all and I asked you not to because I don't even know what this person really believes in. You did not believe me I guess. And so your case is now closed I expect. How convenient and disappointing.

If you read scripture you can read that God predestines his elect. We have no say or control in his predestination power, how can we? Do you know what this term really means? It is based on his foreknowledge that compliments it. He saw, and with his truly free-will, decided, chose and thus predestined, before anyone was born. Does your free will give you that godly power? I think not. We sometimes cannot see beyond our noses.

He called before hand to every soul born and many never showed up to his invitation. So why does he have to choose them? And folks still say no fair, I can choose myself, today. Without God, his Spirit guiding this entire affair and process to conversion, we can never be converted. And then, if the heart is closed, well that's on us, because of our carnal 'free'- will, right?

And again, what is a Calvinist view? And if some of my views intersect this person's view then I'm still toast? And what does that say about you?

Yes God does move on people. God draws people to him for salvation Dan, its the only way. Read your Bible. It's his plan, his method of delivery by his grace, and his reconciliation plan, not yours or mine. You can accept his call when he comes calling or not. That is the only decision you can make I'm afraid. And then this is done in your heart and not your mind.

Again...foreknowledge to election, as in particularly Romans 8:29 “whom he foreknew he predestined” indicates that God chose whom he would save based on their foreseen faith of their own free-will.