The Case for Eternal Security

[Dan Clarkston]

to believe initially came from God

God did not believe FOR you, you had to make the decision to believe once the eyes of your understanding were opened.

 

[Ritajanice]

God did not believe FOR you, you had to make the decision to believe once the eyes of your understanding were opened.

That’s your take on it...

I’ve explained above and stand by it...we are Born Again of imperishable seed by the will of God?

Imperishable seed means what?

How can you believe in God without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That’s your take on it...

God does not make anybody do anything.

If God is making the decisions for everyone and we are nothing but robots as the calvinists claim them that is claiming God is the one doing all the evil in the world today that people are doing.

 

[Wynona]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
I understand that there are two sides to this discussion.
I wanted a topic that took the side that is usually bashed.

So, you are claiming that you do not have eternal security?
Sorry to hear that. - LOL

/

You may just laugh again but...

I really wish that you had addressed more of the scriptures and substance of what I posted in your reply to me.

Ive noticed you take issue with Christians who are dogmatic and disrespectful to those who don't agree with them.

You may not agree with what I said but this came off disrespectful and dismissive. Why mock your opponents and if you complain that this is the behaviour of dogmatic Christians?

Id love a response to some of the Scriptures and points I brought up.

 

[Ritajanice]

God does not make anybody do anything.

If God is making the decisions for everyone and we are nothing but robots as the calvinists claim them that is claiming God is the one doing all the evil in the world today that people are doing.

Please answer my questions?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Please answer my questions?

You have the cart in front of the horse.

Who makes the decision to accept the incorruptible seed?

 

[Behold]

God does not make anybody do anything.

If God is making the decisions for everyone and we are nothing but robots as the calvinists claim them that is claiming God is the one doing all the evil in the world today that people are doing.

1.) Calvin has Lucifer being forced (pre-destined by God) to sin in Heaven along with 30% of the "lower Angels". who are now DEMONS down here.

2.) Calvin has God causing Adam and Eve to sin. (pre-destined)

3.) Calvin has God causing unbelievers to sin all their life. (pre-destined)

4.) Calvin has..... Murder, Incest, Rape, Hatred, Fear, Unbelief, Lying, Stealing, Breaking all the Law and Commandment", (pre-destined for us all to commit". (God pre-destined it).

HITLER?

5.) Calvin said... "Pre-destined to murder 6 million Jews".

6.) Recently in Israel, nearly 1500 Jews were slaughtered.... Babies chopped up, burned while alive... Jewish Mothers and their infants, tied together with barbed wire and set on fire, and then Hamas filmed it on their Phones, to have hundreds of "murder movies".. to show their CHILDREN and WIVES back in GAZA.

Why?
Because Calvin teaches that God pre-destined these Islamic Palestinian DEVILS to do it. (before they were born).

7.) Calvin teaches that SOME people who never chose to be born..,, are born to go to HELL, because God wont choose them for Heaven. (Pre-destined them for Hell) = (Limited Atonement) .


A.) Welcome To : Calvinism... " pre-destined"

Calvin's Motto?

"JUST BLAME GOD"..

Satan loves this theology, because He invented it...
Calvin only wrote it down., exactly as Muhammed dictated the : Quran'.

 

[Ritajanice]

You have the cart in front of the horse.

Who makes the decision to accept the incorruptible seed?

How did you accept being Born Again of imperishable seed?

We are Born Again by the power of the Spirit...there is no power in you, to birth yourself into Christ?

Spirit gives birth to spirit?

Plus..how did you come to believe in Jesus, without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

How do you know that you have been Born Again of imperishable seed?

 

[Ritajanice]

1.) Calvin has Lucifer being forced (pre-destined by God) to sin in Heaven along with 30% of the "lower Angels". who are now DEMONS down here.

2.) Calvin has God causing Adam and Eve to sin. (pre-destined)

3.) Calvin has God causing unbelievers to sin all their life. (pre-destined)

4.) Calvin has..... Murder, Incest, Rape, Hatred, Fear, Unbelief, Lying, Stealing, Breaking all the Law and Commandment", (pre-destined for us all to commit". (God pre-destined it).

HITLER?

5.) Calvin said... "Pre-destined to murder 6 million Jews".

6.) Recently in Israel, nearly 1500 Jews were slaughtered.... Babies chopped up, burned while alive... Jewish Mothers and their infants, tied together with barbed wire and set on fire, and then Hamas filmed it on their Phones, to have hundreds of "murder movies".. to show their CHILDREN and WIVES back in GAZA.

Why?
Because Calvin teaches that God pre-destined these Islamic Palestinian DEVILS to do it. (before they were born).

7.) Calvin teaches that SOME people who never chose to be born..,, are born to go to HELL, because God wont choose them for Heaven. (Pre-destined them for Hell) = (Limited Atonement) .


A.) Welcome To : Calvinism... " pre-destined"

Calvin's Motto?

"JUST BLAME GOD"..

Satan loves this theology, because He invented it...
Calvin only wrote it down., exactly as Muhammed dictated the : Quran'.

This is what you believe and teach, because you believe you chose to be Born Again.

We don’t believe that and never will...you think you are posting Gods truth as you don’t understand being chosen and predestined to become Born Again.

The same could be said about us, who don’t believe in free will...we don’t understand it.

Therefore there is this cycle of going round the merry go round and getting nowhere.

Your opinion of choice and my opinion of no free will to choose.

Is exactly that...POV on how we become Born Of The Spirit.xx

There is no truth in what we believe, only to ourselves and to others who believe as we do.

Free willers.

Chosen and predestined.

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm not attempting to speak for the member, as im sure they'll come back.. and answer you.
So, im going to leave this discussion, till later, but i wanted to give you this verse as it will answer your Question.

Paul teaching...

-B
-
KJ21
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
ASV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
AMP
But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)?
AMPC
But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
BRG
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
CSB
How, then, can they call on him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
CEB
So how can they call on someone they don’t have faith in? And how can they have faith in someone they haven’t heard of? And how can they hear without a preacher?

I knew all about Jesus and the Gospel.

We believe initially in Jesus when God brings us to initially believe, I’ve already explained that above and agreed with Brightfame post about believing.

You cannot believe in God without the rebirth and receiving the Spirit into your heart, just as God planned it for us to receive.

How would you know that you were Born Again of imperishable seed?

Much more to it than posting scripture....where else do you need to know it first?

Spirit gives birth to spirit is a Living spiritual birth, that is God making your spirit Born Again.....you can’t do that by choice, impossible..imo/ POV.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

How did you accept being Born Again of imperishable seed?

Just like you, I heard the good news and made the decision to believe in my heart and confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

there is no power in you, to birth yourself into Christ?

I can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens me - Philippians 4:13

Just like you, the Lord empowered me to make the decision to believe the good news and get born again.

Spirit gives birth to spirit?

Yes, the Holy Spirit makes the spirit of those getting born again to be a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Plus..how did you come to believe in Jesus, without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Fake argument.

The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of one's understanding so they can make the decision to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Notice Romans 10:9 says if YOU shall confess and believe and does not say God will confess and believe for you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Just like you, I heard the good news and made the decision to believe in my heart and confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

I didn’t believe like that...how can you decide to believe in your heart and confess Jesus as Lord without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Where does God witness his word and truth to us?

I can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens me - Philippians 4:13

Just like you, the Lord empowered me to make the decision to believe the good news and get born again.

Get Born Again..that isn’t biblical.

Yes, the Holy Spirit makes the spirit of those getting born again to be a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Scripture please, as this doesn’t make sense?

Fake argument.

The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of one's understanding so they can make the decision to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus

How does the Holy Spirit open your eyes, without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Spirit gives birth to spirit..before your eyes and ears can be opened?

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Notice Romans 10:9 says if YOU shall confess and believe and does not say God will confess and believe for you.

Again how can you confess that Lord Jesus is who he says he is and believe in your heart ,without Spirit gives birth to spirit....

No one can believe without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Reading scripture and belief in ones own understanding won’t save anyone.

Becoming Born Again is a Living Spiritual birth that you will never forget.

Gods word is Alive and Active..you don’t need any Bible to know that?

 

[Wynona]

Why mock your opponents and if you complain that this is the behaviour of dogmatic Christians?

I thought about this some more. Forgive me for rambling...

The truth is, it's difficult for anyone (not just dogmatic Christians) of any strong opinion to be respectful of those they disagree with. Especially me.

My initial instinct was to get really really huffy at you. Its easy to forget that all of us bear the image of God during a heated discussion.

It takes a big ego to believe most of our peers are wrong in their cherished beliefs (I dont believe ego is all bad) And I do stand by my own belief and I believe I'm right.

But that doesn't mean I have any right to resent you. I hope that you will forgive us and your opponents for the shortcomings in our posts. And I hope I can learn to understand your perspective more too. I doubt Ill agree but maybe I can gain more insight into why you believe what you do and not get as frustrated with others in the future.

 

[Ritajanice]

Fake argument.

The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of one's understanding so they can make the decision to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus

No it’s not a fake argument imo, ..plus this is not how Gods word says we are Born Again...those are your words.

 

[Behold]

This is what you believe and teach, because you believe you chose to be Born Again.

I dont believe i chose to be born again.

When i came to Jesus, it was because i wanted to be saved, and
I knew i wasn't .

I knew that i was a SINNER, and i was not going to heaven..


So, "All that call on the Name of Jesus, shall BE saved".. and That is what i did. and God accepted my Faith in Christ, to accept me, based on the Cross of Christ paying for my sin.

And it was all Forgiven..

And THEN< God gave me the new Birth, as God can't give the new birth to a BELIEVER.... until their SIN is gone, and that happens when you "First believe".

Forgiven first....., and THEN born again..

you don’t understand being chosen and predestined to become Born Again.

That's Calvinism.

"T", in Tulip.

Calvinism... = "You are too depraved to understand the Cross, too depraved to be able to go to Christ yourself... so God makes you believe it". (pre-destined) or NOT.

The same could be said about us, who don’t believe in free will...we don’t understand it.

i understand it.

Free will is "choice".. and you just made one to come and try to teach more Calvinism.
Will you choose it again?
That up to you.

Therefore there is this cycle of going round the merry go round and getting nowhere.

We can lay the blame regarding all this you see happening .... on a hateful Bible Rejecting Calvinist who wrote a Thread that is pretending to talk about Eternal Security, but its really just a Thread that is teaching Calvinism.

Your opinion of choice and my opinion of no free will to choose.

Its not my opinion that you have choice., @Ritajanice

Choice is the free will to choose....

You will choose to come back to this Thread. ????
You will choose to write more. ?????
God is not choosing that for you..

God does not choose people to become Pagans, Mormons, Catholics, Police Officers, or Axe Murderers.

God can't hold a person accountable for their SIN, if God caused it (Pre-destined)
So who caused it?
A.) Free will related to the Adamic nature that is the sin nature.


If as Calvin Teaches......that "Hitler" was "pre-destined" to have Jews burned, then How can God hold Him accountable?

See that "error of Calvinism". as Calvin says that he was "pre-destined" ...



People make their choice to do what they want.

= Free will.

And a Believer has chosen Christ by their Faith.

To Believe is to CHOOSE
To TRUST is to Choose to Trust., and that is Faith.

 

[Ritajanice]

I thought about this some more. Forgive me for rambling...

The truth is, it's difficult for anyone (not just dogmatic Christians) of any strong opinion to be respectful of those they disagree with. Especially me.

My initial instinct was to get really really huffy at you. Its easy to forget that all of us bear the image of God during a heated discussion.

It takes a big ego to believe most of our peers are wrong in their cherished beliefs (I dont believe ego is all bad) And I do stand by my own belief and I believe I'm right.

But that doesn't mean I have any right to resent you. I hope that you will forgive us and your opponents for the shortcomings in our posts. And I hope I can learn to understand your perspective more too. I doubt Ill agree but maybe I can gain more insight into why you believe what you do and not get as frustrated with others in the future.

Exactly...I don’t resent anyone...yet, I can’t have them telling me how I became Born Again...I must stand on what I believe the witness of the Holy Spirit is witnessing what I believe to my spirit.

 

[APAK]

God did not believe FOR you, you had to make the decision to believe once the eyes of your understanding were opened.

Dan, is this truthfully what God and scripture says or said for you to do as part of a checklist for your salvation? Point to the pertinent scripture if you do not mind.

And if I can be a little personal with you, Is this what you did, make a choice for your own salvation, after you implies you believed, and in what or who, and independent of God and his presence?

And when did this point of decision arrive, at what point in your life? I can provide my answers to these if you wish...thanks

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You cannot believe in God without the rebirth and receiving the Spirit into your heart, just as God planned it for us to receive.

No, you believe first in order to receive the incorruptible seed which is when it is planted in you.

Seeds must be planted first before they can produce fruit.

Calvinist false claims you get fruit first and then you plant the seed.

I didn’t believe like that...

OK, so you believe Romans 10:9 is a portion is scripture that is false.

Get Born Again..that isn’t biblical.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Based on your comments, you believe Jesus told a lie and you won't be entering in to God's Kingdom according to Jesus.

Scripture please, as this doesn’t make sense?

Wow! So you really don't know God's Word!

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

How does the Holy Spirit open your eyes, without the witness of the Holy Spirit?

Nobody is saying this except you.

The Holy Spirit is the One that convicts and opens the eyes of one's understanding so they can know they are in need of salvation and the answer is to believe and confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Again how can you confess that Lord Jesus is who he says he is and believe in your heart ,without Spirit gives birth to spirit....

You are the only one saying that.

No it’s not a fake argument imo, ..plus this is not how Gods word says we are Born Again...those are your words.

Sadly you have been indoctrinated by the scripture twisters so you are unable to understand since the false teaches you have been indoctrinated with have darkened your understanding. Dad, very sad.

 

[Ritajanice]

I dont believe i chose to be born again.

When i came to Jesus, it was because i wanted to be saved, and
I knew i wasn't .

I knew that i was a SINNER, and i was not going to heaven..


So, "All that call on the Name of Jesus, shall BE saved".. and That is what i did. and God accepted my Faith in Christ, to accept me, based on the Cross of Christ paying for my sin.

And it was all Forgiven..

And THEN< God gave me the new Birth, as God can't give the new birth to a BELIEVER.... until their SIN is gone, and that happens when you "First believe".

Forgiven first....., and THEN born again..




That's Calvinism.

"T", in Tulip.

Calvinism... = "You are too depraved to understand the Cross, too depraved to be able to go to Christ yourself... so God makes you believe it". (pre-destined) or NOT.




i understand it.

Free will is "choice".. and you just made one to come and try to teach more Calvinism.
Will you choose it again?
That up to you.




We can lay the blame regarding all this you see happening .... on a hateful Bible Rejecting Calvinist who wrote a Thread that is pretending to talk about Eternal Security, but its really just a Thread that is teaching Calvinism.



Its not my opinion that you have choice., @Ritajanice

Choice is the free will to choose....

You will choose to come back to this Thread. ????
You will choose to write more. ?????
God is not choosing that for you..

God does not choose people to become Pagans, Mormons, Catholics, Police Officers, or Axe Murderers.

God can't hold a person accountable for their SIN, if God caused it (Pre-destined)
So who caused it?
A.) Free will related to the Adamic nature that is the sin nature.


If as Calvin Teaches......that "Hitler" was "pre-destined" to have Jews burned, then How can God hold Him accountable?

See that "error of Calvinism". as Calvin says that he was "pre-destined" ...



People make their choice to do what they want.

= Free will.

And a Believer has chosen Christ by their Faith.

To Believe is to CHOOSE
To TRUST is to Choose to Trust., and that is Faith.

Once again you believe in freewillers and I don’t.

So ,why do you force some to believe what you believe?

Am I forcing you to believe what I believe?xx..I don’t think I am...please reread your posts Brother to other members.

When you start “ TELLING “ members that they are wrong...how would you know, were you with them when they became Born Again?xx

You need to stop forcing Brother, it’s not of God..it’s Of you..imo,POV.xx

 

[Ritajanice]

No, you believe first in order to receive the incorruptible seed which is when it is planted in you.

Seeds must be planted first before they can produce fruit.

Calvinist false claims you get fruit first and then you plant the seed.




OK, so you believe Romans 10:9 is a portion is scripture that is false.





John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Based on your comments, you believe Jesus told a lie and you won't be entering in to God's Kingdom according to Jesus.





Wow! So you really don't know God's Word!

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.





Nobody is saying this except you.

The Holy Spirit is the One that convicts and opens the eyes of one's understanding so they can know they are in need of salvation and the answer is to believe and confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.





You are the only one saying that.






Sadly you have been indoctrinated by the scripture twisters so you are unable to understand since the false teaches you have been indoctrinated with have darkened your understanding. Dad, very sad.

Before I go any further with you..please answer all the questions I asked you on my last post to you?

As you haven’t answered any of them?
Thank you.