Why its important to keep the Sabbath

[Ziggy]

Jdg 9:7
And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you.
Jdg 9:8
The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
Jdg 9:9
But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:10
And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:11
But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:12
Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:13
And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:14
Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:15
And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

Luk 6:44
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Exo 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Lam 3:22
It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

Jhn 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jhn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
1Ti 6:16
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Jo 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Deu 5:1
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2
The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Deu 5:4
The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Deu 5:5
(I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
Deu 5:6
I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

So when Jesus comes along claiming to be the Son of God, even the first begotten of God, even claiming to be God, then Israel became furious, because under the law they were to have no other gods before the Lord they followed.

So somebody isn't telling the truth.
Either Jesus is lying saying no man hath seen God at any time, or Moses is lying saying he spoke to God face to face.

choose.

Moses stood between the Lord and the people.

1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Zec 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Zec 3:3
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4
And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Zec 3:5
And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
Zec 3:6
And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
Zec 3:7
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

The Branch​

Zec 3:8
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
Zec 3:9
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec 3:10
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

No bramble bush's here.
Just sayin..
Hugs

 

[Grailhunter]

So somebody isn't telling the truth.
Either Jesus is lying saying no man hath seen God at any time, or Moses is lying saying he spoke to God face to face.

Face to face….define face….presence to presense

Exodus 33:18-20
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

 

[BarneyFife]

You're just proving my point. I think we're done? Do you realize that turning to carnal responses is a form of quitting? It's a capitulation to your very worst extinct, which is to stop caring what other think or to stop caring about what God Himself thinks.

I don't have to prove anything to you personally. I answer you because you make public statements that demand a response.

I've proven that neither Church Fathers nor Reformation leaders believed we need to keep the Law or the Sabbath. If it was thought at all that Christians could keep the Sabbath in the new format of Christianity, then it was not really the Jewish Sabbath at all, but rather, a non-legal adherence to the need to dedicate a day to meet together as believers.

The 10 Commandments, for most people, represent the Moral Law contained within the Law of Moses--a Law that remains in effect today under the New Covenant. But it is always assumed that these 10 Commandments have been extracted from the Law, and as such, reinterpreted in a New Covenant context that does not legally require Sabbath observance. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.

I admit that I'm inclined to have done with my discussion with you, especially since it was essentially over before it got started.

When you tell someone who has been reading and studying the Bible for over 50 years that they "just don't understand" you breach a kind of respect that was common in my generation. It wasn't the earned, personal kind. I don't know how old you are and I don't display my age either, because it often creates a target for a lot of younger folk who have bad attitudes about "Boomers." I can tell you that I know where I was and what I was doing when JFK was assassinated, and I remember watching the first moon landing live on a black-and-white TV.

And this, alone, I could actually overlook since it seems to be a lost courtesy, anyway, but this, coupled with your refusal to answer two simple questions just tears it for me.

Despite your quasi-genteel manner of expression, you have been every bit as insulting as I have (maybe more) in your own way. And your selfishness is exhibited by your presumption that what I post in response to you is for your benefit alone.

"Judging your heart?" That's quite some projection.

So, please, please, spare me your moral high-ground platitudes.

I can't help that you can't take plain talk without offense.

And it's not that I don't care what you think, but since I'm no thief I can't spend too much time trying to open a door that's locked from the inside.

However, it's clear that for this discussion, in order for the "we're done" thing to actually take place, I'll have to stop responding because, in addition to the other things, you definitely have last-word-itis.

So I'll say this and be done (maybe ):

The Ten Commandments are not a subset of a group of 613 (an indefinite and mystical number attributed to Simlai, upon which Orthodox Judaism cannot even agree—link) commands from the Torah—they are the very foundation of moral human behavior—they came even before the Bible itself (as is evident through Genesis 2, Cain, Abraham, Joseph, etc.) and without them no one would have any idea how to love God supremely and their neighbors as themselves.

Jesus died for our sins, which are defined as LAWLESSNESS.

50 years ago, even criminals in civilized nations knew this, and you have not been able to prove otherwise, except from your own opinionated imaginings of history and quotations from uninspired "church fathers."

And all of this nonsense serves the same purpose, no matter what "divided house" form it takes, whether it's "Saturday vs. Sunday," "Jesus is our everyday Sabbath," "The Ten Commandments were nailed to the Cross," etc., ad nauseum.

It is all designed by the devil himself to impeach the literal observance of the fourth article of the Decalogue. He knows that people don't like their lifestyles upended, and he knows how to exploit that tendency.

First (in no ultra-precise order), he propped up Sunday as an augmentation to the weekly habit of rest and worship; then he capitalized on antisemitism to designate the true Sabbath as "Judaizing"; then he presented Sunday as an honor to the Resurrection; then he persecuted those who tried to get the Bible into the hands of the common people throughout the dark ages; then he invented 24/7 drive-thru, hyper-consumerism throwing the whole notion of circaseptan biology into doubt; and now, since the Sabbath is seen as a Jewish relic, he is whittling away at morality, in general, with Christians minimizing the eternal moral code for human beings and thinking nothing of beholding entertainment media rife with every sin imaginable, knowing that by beholding, we become changed (link).

And we are now becoming transformed into the image of Satan, bit by bit, urged on by "Christians," no less. But when the world begins to really implode the Sabbath will be the most convenient commandment to exploit as a means of escape from the destruction which has already begun.

Hard pass
.

 

[Ziggy]

Face to face….define face….presence to presense

Exodus 33:18-20
18 Then Moses said, “I pray You, show me Your glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Jhn 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

hugs

 

[Randy Kluth]

When you tell someone who has been reading and studying the Bible for over 50 years that they "just don't understand" you breach a kind of respect that was common in my generation.

I've been studying the Bible for over 50 years too.

It wasn't the earned, personal kind. I don't know how old you are and I don't display my age either, because it often creates a target for a lot of younger folk who have bad attitudes about "Boomers." I can tell you that I know where I was and what I was doing when JFK was assassinated, and I remember watching the first moon landing live on a black-and-white TV.

We are the same generation, brother.

The Ten Commandments are not a subset of a group of 613 (an indefinite and mystical number attributed to Simlai, upon which Orthodox Judaism cannot even agree—link) commands from the Torah—they are the very foundation of moral human behavior—they came even before the Bible itself (as is evident through Genesis 2, Cain, Abraham, Joseph, etc.) and without them no one would have any idea how to love God supremely and their neighbors as themselves.

Jesus died for our sins, which are defined as LAWLESSNESS.

If I had hearing aids, I would take them out right about now. I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible. The Bible says the opposite, that the 10 Commandments are indeed a subset of the Law of Moses. Although they represent the Moral Law contained within the Law of Moses, it is still part of the Law! The Moral Law is permanent. The Law of Moses is not! Sabbath Law is *not* the Moral Law and is *not* permanent.

And all of this nonsense serves the same purpose, no matter what "divided house" form it takes, whether it's "Saturday vs. Sunday," "Jesus is our everyday Sabbath," "The Ten Commandments were nailed to the Cross," etc., ad nauseum.

It is all designed by the devil himself to impeach the literal observance of the fourth article of the Decalogue. He knows that people don't like their lifestyles upended, and he knows how to exploit that tendency.

Actually the Devil would love for you to try to earn your Salvation by "keeping the Sabbath." You should look to "Christ alone" for your Salvation. All else is trash. All else is self-effort at self-justification. Moral living is not self-justification. Keeping the Sabbath is self-justification.

And we are now becoming transformed into the image of Satan, bit by bit, urged on by "Christians," no less. But when the world begins to really implode the Sabbath will be the most convenient commandment to exploit as a means of escape from the destruction which has already begun.

Like I said, if you love the Sabbath so much that's up to you. You can dream about it at night. As for me, I prefer to base my beliefs on the idea that "Christ alone" is the source of my Salvation--not the 4th Commandment. Try to have a nice day.

 

[BarneyFife]

If I had hearing aids, I would take them out right about now.

That's not insulting at all.

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

No, never.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

The Bible says the opposite, that the 10 Commandments are indeed a subset of the Law of Moses. Although they represent the Moral Law contained within the Law of Moses, it is still part of the Law! The Moral Law is permanent. The Law of Moses is not! Sabbath Law is *not* the Moral Law and is *not* permanent.

Absolute word sorcery—The Nine Demandments

"The Bible says," except that it doesn't say—you say.

Actually the Devil would love for you to try to earn your Salvation by "keeping the Sabbath." You should look to "Christ alone" for your Salvation. All else is trash. All else is self-effort at self-justification. Moral living is not self-justification. Keeping the Sabbath is self-justification.

Ah, The Eternal Gigantic Straw Man

Now, it's not nice to relate the Sabbath to salvation (which I seldom ever do)...
...unless it's to accuse those who dare to keep it of not being saved because of doing so.

Like I said, if you love the Sabbath so much that's up to you.

Well, like I always say, it never ceases to amaze me how much people hate it. Maybe you're just rating by comparison. Hate does have a way of making appreciation look like idolatry, it seems.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

I've been studying the Bible for over 50 years too.

Good for you, by the way, but I didn't directly challenge your understanding. I just asked you two simple questions.

Should we give out exact dates to see who's BETTER?? :cool:

If I had hearing aids, I would take them out right about now. I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

Well, here's a little something to read while they recharge:

How may lawgivers are there?
"There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy." James 4:12.


What is said of the stability of His character?
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6.


What is the character of His works?
"The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." Ps. 111:7, 8.


What is the character of His law?
"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Rom. 7:14.


What is revealed in that law as necessary for the carnal man to know before he can be converted?
"And knowest His will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law." Rom. 2:18.


Then, if there is a change in one's life, from the carnal to the spiritual, does the law act any part in that work?
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple." Ps. 19:7.


What did our Saviour say to the young man who wanted salvation?
"And He said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matt. 19:17.


Was it the intention of Christ to abolish or change any part of God's law?
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt. 5:18.


What did the Saviour say He came to do to the law?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt. 5:17.


When used in prophecy, what does the word fulfill mean? To bring to pass.
"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet." (Matt. 4:14). "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor. 15:54.


But what does the word mean associated with an obligation? - To perform, or act in accordance with.
"Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Gal. 6:2 (Matt. 3:15) (James 2:8, 9).


What did Christ say He came into the world to do?
"Wherefore, when He cometh into the world, He saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not... Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of Me) to do Thy will, O God." Heb. 10:5-7.


Who did the Saviour say should be saved in the kingdom of heaven?
"Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21.


What did He say of those who should break one of God's commandments?
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:19.
NOTE: That is, it shall be said by those in the kingdom of heaven, that he is the least, and God will have no regard for him while maintaining that position.


What did He say of those whose righteousness (right-doing) did not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees?
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:20.


On what particular point did Christ reprove the Pharisees?
"But He answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt. 15:3.


How had they done this?
"For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother;... but ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift,... and honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." Matt. 15:4-6.


What kind of worship did He say theirs was?"
"But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matt. 15:9.
NOTE: These people were guilty of breaking (or as the original has it in Matt. 5:19, "loosing," that is, lessening the obligation of) one of God's commandments, to keep up a tradition handed down to them. Their's was a vain worship. God did not recognize it. They were regarded as the least of all His intelligent creatures, because they had the commandments before them, and yet persisted in substituting a tradition in the place of one of them. This is the Saviour's meaning in Matt. 5:19, given above.


By what rule will men's actions be weighed in the judgment?
"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,... in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Rom 2:12-16.


How many of those who are condemned will be proved guilty by the law at that time?
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, It saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Rom. 3:19.
NOTE: The Gentile as well as the Jew will be proved guilty (Rom. 2:11; 10:12). Then the law of God must be the rule of life to all men in the world till the judgment.


By whom will the saved be blessed in the bestowal of the eternal reward?
"Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matt. 25:34.


What blessing will God give to those who have kept His commandments?
"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev. 22:14.
NOTE: It is not to be supposed the simply keeping the commandments will give one a place in glory; for "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight." (Rom. 3:20). But one must show his willingness to yield to the demands of God before he can ever have the blood of Christ to wash his sins away. For an explanation of this point, see readings on "Conversion," "The New Birth," "Faith," etc. We have found, however, that the law of God is unchangeable. In fact, it could not be otherwise, proceeding from the source it does. The law reveals the attributes of its Giver: 1. Ttuth (Ps. 119:142); 2. Righteousness (Ps. 119:172); 3. Love (Ex. 20:6; Matt. 22:36-40); 5. Holiness (Rom. 7:12); 6. Perfection (Ps. 19:7); 7. Immutability (Ps. 111:7-8); 8. Spirituality (Rom. 7:14); 9. Creative power (Ex. 20:8-11; etc.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

And here's a little more:

Where must all men appear?"
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Cor. 5:10.


What will be the standard in the judgment?
"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12 (Rom. 3:19).


In what condition are all men?
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom. 3:23.


How many are included in the "all" who have sinned?
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise; for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin." Rom. 3:9.


By what are all men thus proved guilty?
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Rom. 3:19.
NOTE: It is what the law says, and not what one may interpret it to mean, that proves the sinner guilty. Moreover, God is no respecter of persons, but treats Jew and Gentile alike. All the world, says the text, become guilty before God.


What effect does faith in Christ have upon the law?
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Rom. 3:31.


In what did the apostle Paul delight?
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Rom. 7:22.


How does the carnal mind stand related to the law of God?
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom. 8:7.


How long did the Saviour say all the law would be in force?
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all [Greek, all things] be fulfilled." Matt. 5:18.
NOTE: "As long as the world endured, not the least word, or letter, or point, or comma (so to speak), of the whole law, should by any means lose its authority, or fail of answering the end for which it was given; and the moral law would, to the end of time, continue the standard of sin and holiness to all men, and the believer's rule of duty." --Thomas Scott, D.D., on Matt. 5:18.


When asked which was the great commandment in the law, what answer did Christ make?
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Matt. 22:37-39.


What did He say hung on these two requirements?
"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt. 22:40.
NOTE: As long as these two great commandments continue, all the law must exist, as well; for it is suspended on, and inherent in, these two great principles of love. As long as these last, that must continue. If one loves God with all his heart, he will not worship idols nor images, neither will he profane the name of God. He will remember the day which God has set apart as a day of worship. So, if one loves his neighbor as himself, he will not kill him, steal from him, lie about him, or covet his possessions, etc. It is plain that if one had in his heart the two principles of love set forth by the Saviour, he must keep the law of God in all its parts.


What does the apostle say about the practice of Christ in keeping the law?
"And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." 1 John 3:5.


What does Christ say of Himself in this respect?
"I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10.


If one would abide in Christ, what ought he to do?
"He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." 1 John 2:6.


How does James say one may be blessed in his deeds?
"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:25.


What is said of those who profess to know the Lord, and yet do not keep His commandments?
"He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4.


What is the test whereby one may know he has passed from death unto life?
"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren." 1 John 3:14.


How may one be sure he loves the brethren?
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments." 1 John 5:2.


And what is the love of God?
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.


What will characterize the "remnant" church?
"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

And here's a little more:

How does Nehemiah describe the giving of the law at Sinai?
"Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: and madest known unto them Thy holy Sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses." Nehemiah 9:13, 14.


What was the primary advantage possessed by the Hebrews?
"What advantage then hath the Jew?... chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1, 2.
NOTE: The law was not spoken at this time exclusively for the Hebrews. God honored them by making them the guardians and keepers of His law, to be held by them as a sacred trust for the whole world. The precepts of the Decalogue are adapted to all mankind, and they were given for the instruction and government of all.

"We have already seen that, unlike the ceremonial and civil codes which were given to Israel as the chosen people and holy nation, the moral law is intended for all mankind, and it has never been abrogated nor repealed?" --William C. Procter, Moody Bible Institute Monthly (copyrighted), December, 1933, p. 160. Used by permission.


Before the law was given at Sinai, how did Moses render judgment to the people?
"When they have a matter, they come unto me and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and His laws." Exodus 18:16.


In the wilderness, before reaching Sinai, how did Moses explain the absence of the manna on the seventh day?
"He said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord... Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none." Exodus 16:23-26.


When some of the people went out to gather manna on the seventh day, what did the Lord say to Moses?
"And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep My commandments and My laws?" Verse 28.
NOTE: lt is evident therefore that the Sabbath and the law of God existed before the law was given at Sinai. (See the last question on reading 76)


What additional evidence do we have that the moral law of Ten Commandments existed before it was proclaimed at Mount Sinai?
"By one's disobedience many were made sinners." Romans 5:19. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.
NOTE: The one man through whom sin entered into this world was Adam. Since sin is the transgression of the law, it follows that the law existed in Eden, else there would have been no transgression, noun. "In the creation He wrote it in men's hearts, and hence it is called the Law of nature. Rom. 2:15. . . . "27. Has not God revealed this law in any other way? "Yes, He gave it on Mount Sinai, written on two table. of stone." -—Epitome of Pontoppidan's Explanation of Martin Luther's Small Catechism, translated from Norwegian by Edmund Belfour (1935).


How were the Ten Commandments first presented to the people at Sinai?
"God spake all these words, saying,... Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:1-3.


How was it then written down as a permanent record?
"He gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." Ex. 31:18.
NOTE: The law of God, as well as the knowledge of creation, the plan of redemption, and the experiences of the early patriarchs, had been handed down from father to son until this time, but not in written form. He wrote the Ten Commandments upon two tables of stone with His own finger.


How did Moses show that the children of Israel had broken their part of the covenant between them and God?
"It came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the [golden] calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount." Exodus 32:19.


With what exactness did the Lord write the law the second time?
"He wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me." Deuteronomy 10:4.


Where did Moses place these two tables of stone?
"I... put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the Lord commanded me." Verse 5.


What other law was also given at this time?
"When Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished." Deut. 31:24.
NOTE: Besides the Ten Commandment law, the Lord gave to Moses instruction concerning the sanctuary service, which was ceremonial, and certain civil laws regulating the subjects of the nation. These laws were written by Moses in a book, and are called the law of Moses, whereas the other law was written on tables of stone with the finger of God. (See reading "What was Abolished by Christ?")


Why did the Lord call His people out of the land of Egypt?
"He brought forth His people with joy, and His chosen with gladness:... that they might observe His statutes, and keep His laws." Psalm 105:43-45.


How were they to teach the law to their children?
"Thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sit test in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." Deuteronomy 6:7.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

And here's a little more:

What promise to Israel hinged on their keeping the instructions that He had given them?
"Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6.


Was this promise made to the Jews alone?
"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3. If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:19.
NOTE: From these texts it will be readily seen that God had not one provision of grace and one law for the Jew and another means of salvation and another law for the Gentile; but the plan was that through Abraham's seed all the families of the earth should be recipients of divine grace and should receive the blessing through obedience.


What reveals that the Ten Commandment law, given at Sinai, is the law for the Christian?
"Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all, For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:10-12.
NOTE: James, years after the Christian era began, emphasizes the obligation of the Christian to keep the law of Ten Commandments, not merely one precept, but all, and sets forth this law as the standard by which men will be judged in the great day of God. To us, as Christians, God has committed the blessed law in writing, as He did to ancient Israel. This law points out sin to us, that we may confess it and find forgiveness. And when this law is written in our hearts in the new covenant experience (Hebrews 8:10), it also becomes to us the law of life.


What is the wages of sin?
"The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2: 17. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.


How did death enter this world?
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin,' and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom. 5:12.


God is merciful, but will His mercy clear the guilty?
"The Lord is long suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty." Numbers 14:18. (See Exodus 34:5-7.)


What is the result of willfully sinning against God?
"If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:26-29.


To whom is the execution of judgment given?
"Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." Romans 12:19. "The Father hath... given to the Son... authority to execute judgement also." John 5:26, 27. (See Jude 14-15.)


What presumptuous way of life do many pursue?
"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Ecclesiastes 8:11.


What message has God sent to men by His appointed messengers?
"Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him. "for the reward of his hands shall be given him." Isaiah 3:10, 11. "We are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us." 2 Corinthians 5:20. (See 2 Timothy 2:24-26.)


How can man escape the penalty of sin?
"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

And here's a little more:

How long has sin reigned?
"He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning." 1 John 3:8.


What others sinned with Satan?
"God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." 2 Peter 2:4.


Can there be sin where there is no law?
"Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression." Rom. 4:15.


How was the first death brought about?
"And Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him." Gen. 4:8.


What was the difference between the characters of the two men?
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." 1 John 3:12.
NOTE: There must have been a standard by which the characters of the two men were weighed. The standard must have defined the difference between right and wrong, and pointed out man's duty; otherwise it could not be known when one passed from right to wrong, or vice versa.


Did the Lord impute sin to Cain for taking the life of his brother?
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door... And he [God] said,"... the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground... now art thou cursed from the earth." Gen. 4:7-11.


In what condition was mankind before the flood?
"The earth also was corrupt before God; and the earth was filled with violence." Gen. 6:11.


What did God purpose to do with the people of that day?
"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." Gen. 6:13.
NOTE: Paul says (Rom. 4:15) that it is the law that works wrath. Had there been no moral law before the flood to define what was right and wrong, how would God have been justified in visiting wrath upon those antediluvians?


What was Noah called?
"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah, the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness." 2 Peter 2:5.


Why did the Lord destroy Sodom?
"The men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly." Gen. 13:13. "We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord." Gen. 19:13.


By what standard were their deeds weighed?
"And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked; for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds." 2 Peter 2:7, 8.
NOTE: How was it known that their deeds were unlawful, if no law then existed? Unlawful means "contrary to law," or "not permitted by law."


What did Joseph say when he was tempted on a certain point?
"How then, can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Gen. 39:9.


What did God tell Abraham concerning the Amorites?
"But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." Gen. 15:16.


Of what sin were they specially guilty?
"And he did very abominably in following idols, according to all things as did the Amorites, whom the Lord cast out before the children of Israel." 1 Kings 21:26.


Why did the Lord abhor the nations that occupied Canaan before Israel?
"Ye shall therefore keep all My statutes, and all My judgments and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you; for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Lev. 20:22, 23.
NOTE: The cause, "they committed all these things," refers to what had been previously forbidden to the Israelites. Among them was adultery (Lev. 20:10); dishonoring parents (verse 9); breaking the Sabbath (19:30); profaning the name of God (verse 12); lying, stealing, etc. (verse 11). This plainly shows that even Gentiles were held amenable to the law, and were abhorred of God for violating it.


Why did God make His promise to the seed of Abraham?
"Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Gen. 26:5.


What will the children of Abraham do?
"Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39.


Who are the children of Abraham?
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

And here's a little more:

By what are all men to be judged at last?
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil." Eccl. 12:13, 14. "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12.

With what other law were the people of God for a time concerned, which is not to judge them?
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; and having spoiled principalities and power, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:14-17.

What terms are employed, for the sake of convenience, to designate these two laws?
"The first is called "the moral law," summarily contained in the decalogue; the second is known as the "ceremonial or typical law" of the Jewish dispensation.

What is the relation of the moral law to sin?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4.

How early in the history of our world was this law applicable?
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived; but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Tim. 2:13, 14.

Since this law was binding on man previous to his fall, what did it cover?
His relations to God and to His fellow creatures: "Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Him a question, tempting Him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt. 22:35-39.

When and for what reason were laws of a ceremonial or typical nature introduced?
They were introduced after man had sinned, and were instituted because God in mercy provided a plan of redemption or a remedial system. "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering." Gen. 4:3, 4. "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts." Heb. 11:4.
NOTE: The excellence of Abel's offering lays in the fact that he offered blood, which fitly typified the sacrifice of the promised Redeemer, and was the true expression of faith in Him. But the law of sacrifices, which was the central pillar in the typical or ceremonial system, would not have been enjoined upon men, had not sin made a Redeemer necessary, and had not such Redeemer been provided. This, therefore, was a derived or secondary law, brought in with the plan of salvation, and owing its existence to the presence of sin; while the moral law may be called a primary or original law, inasmuch as it existed before sin came into the world, grows out of the relation which all creatures sustain to their Maker and to one another, and would have continued just the same if sin had never come into the world. Thus the line of distinction between the two laws is immutably established, in their origin, the circumstance to which they owe their existence, their nature and the purposes they were respectively to subserve.

How was the moral law communicated to the people at Sinai?
"And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire... And He declared His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even ten commandments." Deut. 4:12, 13.

How was the ceremonial law communicated to them?
"And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, if any man of you bring an offering,..." Lev. 1:1, 2. "This is the law of the burnt offering... meat offering,... sin offering,... trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; which the Lord commanded Moses in Mount Sinai, in the day that He commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai." Lev. 7:37, 38.

On what, and by whom, was the moral law written?
"The Lord spake unto you,... and He declared unto you... ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone." Deut. 4:12, 13.

In what, and by whom, was the ceremonial law written?
"And commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant." (Neh. 9:14). "And they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the Book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel." Neh. 8:1.

Were the Ten Commandments a distinct and complete law by themselves?​

"These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me" (Deut. 5:22). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to Me into the mount, and be there; and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written." Ex. 24:12.​

Was the ceremonial law composed of rules or ordinances?
"The law of commandments, contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15.

What is the nature of the moral law?
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Ps. 19:7.

Was perfection to be secured by the ceremonial law?
"Which was a figure for the time then present in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience." Heb. 9:9.

How did the prophet Isaiah say that Christ would treat the moral law when He should appear on earth as the great teacher?
"The Lord is pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the Law, and make it honorable." Isa. 42:21.

How did Christ fulfill this prophecy?
By opening before the people the deep spiritual nature of the law, living in perfect obedience to both letter and the spirit of all its requirements, and giving His life to save men from the penalty of its transgression. See Matt. 5:17-48; John 15:10; 1 Peter 2:22; Rom. 4:25.

How long was the ceremonial law to continue?
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Heb. 9:10.

When was this time of reformation?
"But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once [once for all] into the holy place [places], having obtained eternal redemption for us." Heb. 9:11, 12.

How did Christ's death affect the ceremonial law?
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Col. 2:14. "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph. 2:15.

What was the object of the ceremonial law?
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices, which they offered year by year, continually, make the comers thereunto perfect." Heb. 10:1.

What does Paul say of the holiness and spirituality of the moral law?
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Rom. 7:12, 14.

How does faith in Christ affect our relation to the moral law?
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law." Rom. 3:31.

How does dependence on the ceremonial law affect our relation to Christ?
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." Gal. 5:2.

How long does Christ say that the moral law is to endure?
"Verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matt. 5:18.

To which code of laws does the Sabbath commandment belong?
"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:2, 3.
NOTE: It appears that the Sabbath belongs to the original, primary, or moral, law, because it was institued before sin came into the world, and consequently before a type or shadow, or any ordinance of a ceremonial nature, could have had an existence.

 

[BarneyFife]

I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible.

To the believer what does Christ become?
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." Rom. 10:4.


In what sense is the word end (Greek, telos) sometimes used in the Scriptures? Object, intention, or design.
"Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord." James 5:11.


What was the object of the law?
"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." Rom. 7:10.


What further is the end, or object, of the law?
"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart." 1 Tim. 1:5.


What is charity, or love?
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom. 13:10 (1 John 5:3).


Why did God send His Son to the world?
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:3, 4.


Then what is one enabled to do through Christ?
"That the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:4 (see margin of Revised Version).
NOTE: Since obedience "unto life" is the "end of the law," and Christ is the means by which one is justified and enabled to keep the law, it is thus that He becomes the "end" or object, of the law for us.

"The end of the law was to bring men to perfect obedience, and so to obtain justification. This is now become impossible, by reason of the power of sin, and the corruption of nature; but Christ is the end of the law; the law is not destroyed, nor the intention of the Lawgiver frustrated; but full satisfaction being made by the death of Christ for our breach of the law, the end, or objective is attained -- which is justification and obedience. Christ is thus the end of the law for righteousness, for justification; but it is only to every one that believeth." --Matthew Henry.

Would you like me to stop my unbiblical assertions now?

.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, never.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (1 Corinthians 7:19)

I was referring to your immediately preceding comment, which was *pure assertion,* and *no Scripture.*

You said:
The Ten Commandments are not a subset of a group of 613 (an indefinite and mystical number attributed to Simlai, upon which Orthodox Judaism cannot even agree—link) commands from the Torah—they are the very foundation of moral human behavior—they came even before the Bible itself (as is evident through Genesis 2, Cain, Abraham, Joseph, etc.) and without them no one would have any idea how to love God supremely and their neighbors as themselves.

Jesus died for our sins, which are defined as LAWLESSNESS.

There was no real Scripture reference in your assertion here--just shouting. You do mention Gen 2, but no reference to the "10 Commandments" there--just a vague claim that it somehow existed there. That is *not* a valid Scriptural reference. Where is the reference to the demand for Sabbath observance in Gen 2?

The Pentateuch lists the 10 Commandments along with the rest of the Law of Moses, indicating by inference that *all of it,* including the 10 Commandments, is "the Law." You assert otherwise. You say the 10 Commandments are the "very foundation of moral human behavior," even "before the Bible." Again, pure assertion.

You say the "10 Commandments" are what the NT Scripture refers to as "keeping the commandments of God?" Again, you're asserting that the 10 Commandments qualify as the "commandments of God" Paul said we should keep.

And yet, neither Paul nor any of the Apostles or Scripture authors claim that Christians must, by law, keep the Sabbath! Please cite a single Scriptural demand that Christians observe the Jewish Sabbath?

You won't be able to provide it. You can only claim that the Sabbath Law is still relevant as a "commandment of God" still relevant under the New Covenant. The commandments of God for Israel under the Old Covenant are *not* the commandments of God for the Church today! You are assuming what you wish to prove.

And yet, the NT Scriptures claim Christians are not under the Law, neither Jew nor Gentile. Christ alone did the work of Salvation--the works of the Law could never attain that. The works of the Law were purely holding Israel in check until final Salvation could be won by Christ.

And so, the Law is utterly unable to win Salvation for anybody, and nobody is under the Law any longer now that Christ has himself provided what was necessary for Salvation. It did *not* include the necessity that we *keep the Law or the Sabbath Law.*

Again, cite a single NT reference indicating we must keep the Sabbath Law? The Gospels do not count as a "NT reference" since Jesus spoke in the Gospels while Israel was still under the Old Covenant and the 10 Commandments. If the NT Scriptures do not teach Sabbath observance theologically and doctrinally, how can you say it has any importance to the Apostles at all?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Would you like me to stop my unbiblical assertions now?

Please see my comment on this. I was referring to your immediately preceding comment, which was purely assertion. Post #454. Please provide your "biblical support" for your claim that the "10 Commandments preceded the Bible?"

You've previously tried to prove, from the Bible, that the 10 Commandments are not a subset of the Law of Moses. But all you've done is shown a distinction between the subset and the complete set. Obviously, a subset would be distinguished from the complete set it belongs to. That proves nothing from the Bible.

On the other hand, I am proving that the 10 Commandments are a subset of the entire Law of Moses. I prove that by showing that the 10 Commandments were repeated twice within the context of the delivery of the Law of Moses to Israel. Nothing could be clearer and more biblical.

There is only a distinction without a difference between saying Moses received a Law and Israel received a Law! Incidental distinctions do not prove an essential difference between the 10 Commandments and the Law.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jhn 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

hugs

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:36 Two different minds.

41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Luke 22:41&42 Two different minds and praying to His Father and asking Him a question.

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matthew 3:17 Father and Son two different persons. Father pleased with the Son.

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” John 20:17

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

I have about a hundred of these scriptures but still wouldn’t you like to be there and ask for details?

 

[BarneyFife]

I was referring to your immediately preceding comment, which was *pure assertion,* and *no Scripture.*

You said:
The Ten Commandments are not a subset of a group of 613 (an indefinite and mystical number attributed to Simlai, upon which Orthodox Judaism cannot even agree—link) commands from the Torah—they are the very foundation of moral human behavior—they came even before the Bible itself (as is evident through Genesis 2, Cain, Abraham, Joseph, etc.) and without them no one would have any idea how to love God supremely and their neighbors as themselves.

Jesus died for our sins, which are defined as LAWLESSNESS.

There was no real Scripture reference in your assertion here--just shouting. You do mention Gen 2, but no reference to the "10 Commandments" there--just a vague claim that it somehow existed there. That is *not* a valid Scriptural reference. Where is the reference to the demand for Sabbath observance in Gen 2?

The Pentateuch lists the 10 Commandments along with the rest of the Law of Moses, indicating by inference that *all of it,* including the 10 Commandments, is "the Law." You assert otherwise. You say the 10 Commandments are the "very foundation of moral human behavior," even "before the Bible." Again, pure assertion.

You say the "10 Commandments" are what the NT Scripture refers to as "keeping the commandments of God?" Again, you're asserting that the 10 Commandments qualify as the "commandments of God" Paul said we should keep.

And yet, neither Paul nor any of the Apostles or Scripture authors claim that Christians must, by law, keep the Sabbath! Please cite a single Scriptural demand that Christians observe the Jewish Sabbath?

You won't be able to provide it. You can only claim that the Sabbath Law is still relevant as a "commandment of God" still relevant under the New Covenant. The commandments of God for Israel under the Old Covenant are *not* the commandments of God for the Church today! You are assuming what you wish to prove.

And yet, the NT Scriptures claim Christians are not under the Law, neither Jew nor Gentile. Christ alone did the work of Salvation--the works of the Law could never attain that. The works of the Law were purely holding Israel in check until final Salvation could be won by Christ.

And so, the Law is utterly unable to win Salvation for anybody, and nobody is under the Law any longer now that Christ has himself provided what was necessary for Salvation. It did *not* include the necessity that we *keep the Law or the Sabbath Law.*

Again, cite a single NT reference indicating we must keep the Sabbath Law? The Gospels do not count as a "NT reference" since Jesus spoke in the Gospels while Israel was still under the Old Covenant and the 10 Commandments. If the NT Scriptures do not teach Sabbath observance theologically and doctrinally, how can you say it has any importance to the Apostles at all?

So, after the goalpost shift ("Well, I wasn't talking about that") we've moved on to the "special pleading/NT-only" phase of the discussion. I'm sitting the rest of it out. This is why I cut right to the chase up front, so everyone watching can see the big QUIT right away. The "law" is whatever the lawless want it to be when it is read anywhere in Scripture.

Have a nice day.

.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So, after the goalpost shift ("Well, I wasn't talking about that") we've moved on to the "special pleading/NT-only" phase of the discussion. I'm sitting the rest of it out. This is why I cut right to the chase up front, so everyone watching can see the big QUIT right away. The "law" is whatever the lawless want it to be when it is read anywhere in Scripture.

Have a nice day.

.

There was no goalpost shift. I invite *everybody* who is in the least interested to read what I wrote. After you make some unique claims in our discussion I suggested you are only "asserting" and not "quoting Scripture." That is true.

But you run with this to claim that I was asserting you *never* quote Scripture, which is patently ridiculous! If that's all you have, and *you* want to call it quits, be my guest. In my opinion, you're not an honest broker.

Post #445:

The Ten Commandments are not a subset of a group of 613 (an indefinite and mystical number attributed to Simlai, upon which Orthodox Judaism cannot even agree—link) commands from the Torah—they are the very foundation of moral human behavior—they came even before the Bible itself (as is evident through Genesis 2, Cain, Abraham, Joseph, etc.) and without them no one would have any idea how to love God supremely and their neighbors as themselves.

Jesus died for our sins, which are defined as LAWLESSNESS.

If I had hearing aids, I would take them out right about now. I already know what you believe. You only assert it--you don't prove it from the Bible. The Bible says the opposite, that the 10 Commandments are indeed a subset of the Law of Moses. Although they represent the Moral Law contained within the Law of Moses, it is still part of the Law! The Moral Law is permanent. The Law of Moses is not! Sabbath Law is *not* the Moral Law and is *not* permanent.

 

[Ziggy]

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Matthew 24:36 Two different minds.

41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Luke 22:41&42 Two different minds and praying to His Father and asking Him a question.

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matthew 3:17 Father and Son two different persons. Father pleased with the Son.

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” John 20:17

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

I have about a hundred of these scriptures but still wouldn’t you like to be there and ask for details?

Yes and no.
If you would like to discuss such things we can always talk in PM.
I understand what you are saying.
And I realize there is much to say concerning the matter, however...
You will not find a very good argument from me one way or the other.
I understand both sides. And I can see it from both perspectives.
But if you wish to discuss by all means my mailbox is always excepting invitations.


Hugs

 

[Jack]

No Sabbath commands for Christians folks! NONE!