Apokatastasis in the early church

[Hillsage]

St. SteVen said:

As I have often said, those who "claim" to hate God haven't met him yet.

What if they don't want to? Is God going to force them?

What sayeth scripture BF?

ROM 11:32 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

It appears to me that GOD unilaterally decided to force/DRAG....Uhhh DRAW? (Not IMO, ;)) ALL INTO DISOBEDIENCE......and that's why HE IS RESPONSIBLE to show mercy to that same ALL. But it will only happen in the age that he has designated to sovereignly accomplish HIS WILL for HIS CREATION...I believe. And Eph 2 says that for some it will not happen for 'at least' 2 ages after the age in which Eph 2 was written.

EPH 2:7* that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

AND JUST EXACTLY WHAT "GRACE" IS THIS SCRIPTURE REFERRING TO, THAT 'HAS BEEN' EXTENDED TOWARD US.... YOU/ME AND SS? WELL THE NEXT VERSE TELLS US.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --

AND IN THOSE "AGES TO COME"; I BELIEVE THEY WILL ALSO BE SAVED "NOT OF THEIR OWN DOING" LIKE WE GOT SAVED "NOT OF OUR OWN DOING".

AND IT WON'T REQUIRE FAITH FROM THEM TO BELIEVE, BECAUSE THEY WILL "KNOW THE TRUTH" BY SEEING THE TRUTH....JUST LIKE DOUBTING THOMAS HAD TO 'SEE TO BELIEVE' IN THE RISEN "JESUS THE CHRIST".

 

[BarneyFife]

What sayeth scripture BF?

ROM 11:32 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

It appears to me that GOD unilaterally decided to force/DRAG....Uhhh DRAW? (Not IMO, ;)) ALL INTO DISOBEDIENCE......and that's why HE IS RESPONSIBLE to show mercy to that same ALL. But it will only happen in the age that he has designated to sovereignly accomplish HIS WILL for HIS CREATION...I believe. And Eph 2 says that for some it will not happen for 'at least' 2 ages after the age in which Eph 2 was written.

EPH 2:7* that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

AND JUST EXACTLY WHAT "GRACE" IS THIS SCRIPTURE REFERRING TO, THAT 'HAS BEEN' EXTENDED TOWARD US.... YOU/ME AND SS? WELL THE NEXT VERSE TELLS US.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --

AND IN THOSE "AGES TO COME"; I BELIEVE THEY WILL ALSO BE SAVED "NOT OF THEIR OWN DOING" LIKE WE GOT SAVED "NOT OF OUR OWN DOING".

AND IT WON'T REQUIRE FAITH FROM THEM TO BELIEVE, BECAUSE THEY WILL "KNOW THE TRUTH" BY SEEING THE TRUTH....JUST LIKE DOUBTING THOMAS HAD TO 'SEE TO BELIEVE' IN THE RISEN "JESUS THE CHRIST".

It's funny (peculiar) how alternative interpretations attract people. I'm not familiar with UR except that I'd heard everyone gets saved. When I was drawn to Seventh-day Adventism, I was perfectly happy in my Southern Baptist tradition. I didn't like the idea of change but I couldn't deny the logic and reason of what I was hearing. I was not looking for a change at all, and I had no problems with the view of God's character I'd grown up with.

I decide not to go a googlin' and wikiin' so as to give UR a fair hearing, since I've become pretty chummy with SS.

The more I hear about UR, the more it sounds like Calvinism in the ditch on the other side of the road. Just being honest. I seem to be seeing a lot of the same proof texts, just minus any wrath on God's part. I'm not getting too much out of it so far. Sorry.

We seem to have a knack for creating God in our own image, us humans. I do it, too, every day.


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[St. SteVen]

I had no problems with the view of God's character I'd grown up with.

What - is - your current view of the final judgment?
And what does it say about God's character?

/

 

[BarneyFife]

What - is - your current view of the final judgment?
And what does it say about God's character?

/

My view of the final judgment is that those who reject God's free (to the sinner) offer of righteousness by faith afforded by the crucified and risen Saviour are punished with total annihilation that is directly preceded by exactly the amount of pain and suffering they have inflicted on others—no more; no less.

I believe this portrays God's character as both merciful and just, and secures the universe from the eventuality of another rebellion.

Hebrews 2
1We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.


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[St. SteVen]

My view of the final judgment is that those who reject God's free (to the sinner) offer of righteousness by faith afforded by the crucified and risen Saviour are punished with total annihilation that is directly preceded by exactly the amount of pain and suffering they have inflicted on others—no more; no less.

I believe this portrays God's character as both merciful and just, and secures the universe from the eventuality of another rebellion.

Well stated, thanks.
Like any view, it raises some questions, of course.

It assumes that everyone had an opportunity to either accept, or reject the "free" offer.
Is that true? Also assumes it for everyone after Christ. What about those before Christ?
Held to a difference standard of judgment? (it gets complicated)

I put "free" in quotes above. Here's why. (the offer is suspect - to me)

"Receive the free gift of eternal life today. Or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."

Sounds like extortion to me. God the Father making us an offer we can't refuse.
More like a gangster Godfather than God the Father.

What does that say about his character?
Or more to the point, the character of the church that enforces such bogus offers.
"Do as we say. or you will be excommunicated." = incineration (or worse)

/

 

[BarneyFife]

It assumes that everyone had an opportunity to either accept, or reject the "free" offer.
Is that true?

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11)

I'm sure there is room for dispute about English translation here, but I don't see this as an ultra-literal, absolute truth, anyway.

Also, I'm not at all sure this question is worth contending, since the possibilities for God's mercy and power are limitless.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that a man is raised a bitterly brutalized slave and is so demoralized that it is virtually impossible for him to respond to any prompting of the Spirit, and dies without being conscious of God's grace in any way.

If I were God, I could read every thought and impulse that man ever had and, if nothing else, weigh it against the beauty he was privileged to behold in my creation and make a just judgment as to whether he was safe to save or not, i.e., had any potential for rehabilitation. It all sounds cheap when typed into an online Christian forum by a sinful, finite human being. But the God I tend to contemplate is VERY BIG.

Barring this, why couldn't I just click on the divine "undo" button and erase his life and all his suffering just as though it never existed? If I were God, time, space, and matter would be my plaything if I chose.

Also assumes it for everyone after Christ. What about those before Christ?

I don't do dispensationalism. No one has ever been saved without the blood of the Lamb. I'm a bit surprised you don't know that about me by now, SS. :)

Held to a difference standard of judgment? (it gets complicated)

Maybe for you and me, but not God.

I put "free" in quotes above. Here's why. (the offer is suspect - to me)

"Receive the free gift of eternal life today. Or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."

Sounds like extortion to me. God the Father making us an offer we can't refuse.
More like a gangster Godfather than God the Father.

What does that say about his character?

Honestly, it's not my view—it's your restatement of it. So I couldn't say.

The Bible is a book of 3/4 million English words. I'm not sure I'd care to boil down what God is offering too much.

Or more to the point, the character of the church that enforces such bogus offers.
"Do as we say. or you will be excommunicated." = incineration (or worse)

I don't believe the church is the ultimate administrator of the true offer—the Spirit is.

And the truth is true, even when mean people say it. Mean people have helped me learn about the love of God. I've moved on from their mean perceptions and representations as best I can.

There are very troubling conclusions that are implied by the belief that all people are saved, not the least of which would call into question the character of God, as well.

For example, what is the point of all this death and suffering we see happening all around us that's been going on for thousands of years, if it's just a cosmic hiccup? Suddenly, the gangster seems to have been replaced by a kid curiously pulling wings off of flies.

Keep in mind that I haven't looked into all of the nuts and bolts of UR. :)


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[St. SteVen]

There are very troubling conclusions that are implied by the belief that all people are saved, not the least of which would call into question the character of God, as well.

All people being saved does not equal no consequences. Everyone will answer. And be faced with their life.
Not as a punitive consequence, but as a corrective restoration.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Keep in mind that I haven't looked into all of the nuts and bolts of UR. :)

And most who do look into UR are only interesting in refuting it.
Better to look at something that explains it. IMHO

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

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[BarneyFife]

All people being saved does not equal no consequences. Everyone will answer. And be faced with their life.
Not as a punitive consequence, but as a corrective restoration.

I'm still not getting it.

Living in a world of tempests, war, famine, and pestilence is the fee for getting our papers graded?

I did give this a look and I can go to the web link you gave if you insist but every time I've changed my mind about something has been a result of the personal touch.

Help me out here, SS.

I'm serious—I'm not giving you a wet willie.


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[BarneyFife]

Better to look at something that explains it. IMHO

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

DUDE, IT'S 115,000 WORDS.

That's like ⅔ the size of the New Testament.

I thought we were friends - lol.


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[St. SteVen]

I'm still not getting it.

Living in a world of tempests, war, famine, and pestilence is the fee for getting our papers graded?

I did give this a look and I can go to the web link you gave if you insist but every time I've changed my mind about something has been a result of the personal touch.

Help me out here, SS.

I'm serious—I'm not giving you a wet willie.


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I scrolled through that link. It actually looks pretty good. Including this.

Conclusion:
Some people believe that God does not want to save all people. Others believe that God cannot save all people.
But those who believe in universal reconciliation are convinced that God wants to save all people, that he can do it, and that he will do it!

/

 

[St. SteVen]

DUDE, IT'S 115,000 WORDS.

That's like ⅔ the size of the New Testament.

I thought we were friends - lol.


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It's actually a Trilogy.
Should I send links to the other two? - LOL

Yes, I didn't expect you to read the whole thing.
Just an example of the sort of scholarly work that exists.

David Bentley Hart - All Shall Be Saved
Would be a more reasonable recent book.

https://www.amazon.com/That-All-Shall-Saved-Universal/dp/0300246226

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Living in a world of tempests, war, famine, and pestilence is the fee for getting our papers graded?

From that perspective, I would think a happy ending would be most welcome.
Does it seem more fitting that a life of misery should end in incineration for the vast majority?
That really does put a dark shadow on God's character.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Help me out here, SS.

Basically, if you are aware that there are three biblical views of the final judgment then I am satisfied with that.
I make it my task to inform Christians what I know about it. I don't have anything to sell beyond that.

/ @Hillsage

 

[BarneyFife]

Basically, if you are aware that there are three biblical views of the final judgment then I am satisfied with that.
I make it my task to inform Christians what I know about it. I don't have anything to sell beyond that.

/ @Hillsage

That's admirable.


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[BarneyFife]

@St. SteVen, just curious:

Is there any UR consensus on why God didn't rectify the sin problem in its infancy?

Well, it just occurred to me that you might not hold to the pre-earth, Luciferian revolt theory.

Are most UR adherents theistic evolutionists?

You'll have to pardon me if I form any offensive terms.

I don't know you to be all that sensitive, but some folks blow a gasket when you don't express things properly. You can safely assume I'm not interested in offending you.

I'm saving that stuff for Big Boy these days, although I'm not sure he hasn't finally put me on his ignore list because I haven't been feeling that chomping sensation at my ankles for the last day or so, and he did bid me an oddly friendly farewell.


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[St. SteVen]

Is there any UR consensus on why God didn't rectify the sin problem in its infancy?

I think that is a puzzle for all of us, not just UR.
I suppose God loves a good story. Why would we need him without it?

Not much consensus in UR about anything. - LOL
Mostly joking. But there is no central doctrinal statement that everyone holds to.
And no denomination, or even churches for that matter.

Those who have been at it a while seem to align better.
I have noticed a spectrum of beliefs for newbies.
Some folks transition into it while they deconstruct their old doctrines.

Are most UR adherents theistic evolutionists?

Most that I have met are fairly conservative.
But I know some fine UR adherents who are theistic evolutionists.
That doesn't matter to me.

You'll have to pardon me if I form any offensive terms.

No worries. (I have plenty of bandages) - LOL

I'm saving that stuff for Big Boy these days,

LOL

/

 

[Hillsage]

@St. SteVen, just curious:

Is there any UR consensus on why God didn't rectify the sin problem in its infancy?

Rectify it? He was the one who orchestrated it. He created the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. It was Adam's job to take care of the Garden....not keep the most "subtil" beast which was the "serpent" out of the Garden.

GEN 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman,

Do you even know what "the serpent" was? I recently read a pamphlet on the subject....pretty interesting. The bible tells us two times;

REV 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

REV 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Well, it just occurred to me that you might not hold to the pre-earth, Luciferian revolt theory.

I'm aware of teaching about the 'Pre Adamic' race which was created before the Gen 1: 1,2 creation. The Gen 1;1 creation says "in the beginning the earth was created as VOID and that Hebrew word is TOHUW.

GEN 1:2 And the earth was 'without form' tohuw ,....

8414 tohuw
a desolation (of surface),i.e. desert; fig. a worthless thing; adv. in vain

But then in Isaiah 45:18 we read; For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in 'vain' tohuw, ......

And as for the Luciferian revolt theory I may have a bit of trouble. The serpent was a liar "from the beginning of his creation.

JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Are most UR adherents theistic evolutionists?

Some adherents probably are, and some probably aren't. But neither dictates UR as being true or untrue IMO.

You'll have to pardon me if I form any offensive terms.

You'll have to first 'offend' me, and so far that just hasn't happened.

I don't know you to be all that sensitive, but some folks blow a gasket when you don't express things properly. You can safely assume I'm not interested in offending you.

When your boat is floating in the 'SEAS OF "CHRISITAN" OFFENSE' to keep from sinking, just keep the water out of your boat. IOW don't let some one run his sharp 'BOW wow' into your 'STERN butt'.

 

[David in NJ]

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism,
Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR...

There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.

Apokatastasis was a major part of Christian theology in the early church.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin,
Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the
two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem,
Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha,
Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,
and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

--- Agree or disagree? ---

Quotes from the early church fathers in the next post.


@Chadrho @Patrick1966

Apokatastasis is greek for 'BAD BREATH'​

Continues today in most churches

 

[St. SteVen]

Apokatastasis is greek for 'BAD BREATH'

Now that's funny. - LOL

Terrible Greek, but very funny.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism,
Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR...

There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.

Apokatastasis was a major part of Christian theology in the early church.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin,
Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the
two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem,
Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha,
Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,
and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

--- Agree or disagree? ---

Quotes from the early church fathers in posts #2 and #5-7.

]