They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Davidpt]

Do you deny the thousand years regardless of whether you believe it to be literal or symbolic, equates to TIME? Of course it does! Now you've created a problem for yourself because John writes in Rev 10:5-7 that when the seventh angel begins to sound time/delay should be no longer. How can there be one thousand more years of TIME after the seventh trumpet sounds? The only TIME that shall come after the sounding of the seventh trumpet is Satan's little season. Surely you don't believe Satan's little season is at the beginning of the NHNE where only righteousness dwells?


It's not about whose right and who is not! It's about rightly understanding the Word of God. The Word of God can only be rightly divided when it is a cohesive whole that does not build upon one contradiction after another.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


For example. Clearly, this is involving the time of the NHNE. If 24 hour cycles no longer exist, how does one explain this part---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month?

Why mention months if there is literally no such thing anymore?

And that is per the NT. We have the following per the OT, as another example.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This involves the time of the NHNE as well, apparently. If 24 hour cycles no longer exist, how does one explain this part---And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another? Why mention those things if there are no longer any new moons to another, if there are no longer any sabbaths to another? All of these things in both accounts above speak of things involving measurable time.

To me I just don't find it reasonable to use things that supposedly no longer exists, to explain these things. Not to mention, this---the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind(Isaiah 65:17). Yet, the former is obviously still coming to mind in Isaiah 66:22-24 though, if they are going forth during the NHNE that He creates, and looking upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Him.

 

[ewq1938]

If some of these martyrs in verse 4 are meaning the souls crying out for vengeance during the 5th seal, and that some of them are meaning their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, initially then, they can't be the same group. Granted, in the end they are all one group. Initially they aren't, that being the point. Therefore, I don't know if we are on the same page here or not?

The dead in the 5th seal died BEFORE the trib and are told to wait until more of them die in the trib. Rev 20 focuses upon a group killed in the trib by being beheaded. Again, Rev 20 does not speak of two different groups but one who refuses multiple things which was why they were killed.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


For example. Clearly, this is involving the time of the NHNE. If 24 hour cycles no longer exist, how does one explain this part---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month?

David, I would be happy to discuss this verse with you, but not before you address the inconsistencies I've shown you regarding the discussion we were having. I've come to understand how you like to bring up other texts and ask more questions to lead away from these things I don't believe your doctrine can adequately defend.

 

[ewq1938]

This was an excellent post, very insightful. Where I might disagree is what you said in the last paragraph---"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity". How can eternity not begin for those that have put on immortality at the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57)?

Christ rose as immortal but the eternal age did not begin yet. At the Coming the dead in Christ will rise immortal, but still the eternal age is not yet. Only once mortality is erased, then can we say eternity has begun, Rev 21.

 

[ewq1938]

It's all in Christ, so just as His Kingdom has come and His Kingdom is coming, so the new heavens and new earth has come and the new heavens and new earth is coming, because it's one and the same thing:​

A kingdom and Eaarth/heaven are two different concepts.

PS: I believe there is a strong possibility that the new heavens and new earth and the millennium commence at the same time, immediately following the destruction of the beast and false prophet:

The bible does not support this.

The Millennium is the time of the rod of iron rule over mortals while satan is imprisoned. Death, pain, tears, the sea and satan all still exist.

The NHNE is the time after the rod of iron rule has expired, after the GWTJ, after all death and sin have been destroyed in a new world that does not have death, pain, tears, the sea and satan.


The proper order is SECOND COMING (death still exists), then MILLENNIUM (death still exists), then GWTJ/LOF (death still exists), then NHNE (death does not exist) and NJ (death does not exist).

 

[Davidpt]

Christ rose as immortal but the eternal age did not begin yet. At the Coming the dead in Christ will rise immortal, but still the eternal age is not yet. Only once mortality is erased, then can we say eternity has begun, Rev 21.

It's a reasonable argument anyway. I can't say that I am prepared at this time to fully agree, though. I guess I just need to think about it some more.

 

[Davidpt]

A kingdom and Eaarth/heaven are two different concepts.





The bible does not support this.

The Millennium is the time of the rod of iron rule over mortals while satan is imprisoned. Death, pain, tears, the sea and satan all still exist.

The NHNE is the time after the rod of iron rule has expired, after the GWTJ, after all death and sin have been destroyed in a new world that does not have death, pain, tears, the sea and satan.


The proper order is SECOND COMING (death still exists), then MILLENNIUM (death still exists), then GWTJ/LOF (death still exists), then NHNE (death does not exist) and NJ (death does not exist).

All that aside, apparently you disagree that the present earth passes away during the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night per the 2nd coming? Because if you did agree with that but still insist the new earth doesn't happen until over a thousand years later, what earth should we assume one is dwelling on in the meantime since it can't be either of these, per this scenario?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


How is it even remotely reasonable that none of what is recorded in these 2 verses is meaning what is recorded in the following verse?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


IOW, this---Heaven and earth shall pass away--equals this---; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And this---But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only---equals this--the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

How then can anyone insist that Matthew 24:36 is meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned rather than meaning when He returns? Even if one is not insisting that, pertaining to Matthew 24:36, that is beside the point, because, clearly, Matthew 24:36 is meaning 2 Peter 3:10 and that that verse indicates that the heavens and the earth pass away at that time, not a thousand years later instead.

 

[Davidpt]

Thinking out loud here. I can't speak for other Premils, but speaking for myself, though I am convinced that the NHNE begins with the 2nd coming, why then am I not also convinced that the millennium fits where Amils insist it fits? The following are some reasons why. There's numerous more reasons than just these. These are just some reasons off the top of my head for now.

1) and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Amil can't convincingly show how this supports Amil, thus proves Amil.

2) but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Amil can't convincingly show how this supports Amil, thus proves Amil.

3) Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Amil can't convincingly show what these are doing during the thousand years and why they are then rebelling after the thousand years. Rebelling against what? And why?

4) Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Amil can't produce the needed time to fulfill these things since time no longer exists, according to them, once Christ returns.

5) Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.


Regardless, that this is a parable, it still depicts Christ giving rewards to faithful servants once He returns, which involve Him giving them authority over things. But why, if according to Amils, that the same day Christ returns, it equals this before this day is over---1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all?

As if it makes sense that He is going to reward His faithful servants with authority over things, then 24 hours or so later He strips them of this authority because 1 Corinthians 15:28 has come to pass instead.

Then we have the following from the same parable though Amils insist that there is no more death involving the unsaved after that of Revelation 19:21, that that verse takes into account every unsaved person still alive when Christ returns.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Compare that with this.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

bring hither, and slay them before me---And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth

The former has someone else doing the slaying for Him. The latter has Him doing His own slaying. The former is meaning after He has already returned where He first gave out authority over things to His faithful servants, then were His enemies which would not that He should reign over them, brought before Him then slain before Him.

Obviously, Luke 19:27 is meaning before the time of the great white throne judgement since death still exists if one can still be slain. And not only that, Luke 19:15 has Christ bodily back on the earth. Yet, most Amils, if not all Amils, insist that Christ doesn't set foot on the earth again until it is first a new earth. Yet, here He is setting foot on earth per the parable involving Luke 19, and that Amils argue that the NHNE are after the great white throne judgment and that Christ doesn't set foot on earth until the time of the NHNE.

 

[ewq1938]

All that aside, apparently you disagree that the present earth passes away during the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night per the 2nd coming?

There are many days of the Lord, not just the one second coming day. The day of the GWTJ is another day of the Lord and that is when the NHNE happens.

Because if you did agree with that but still insist the new earth doesn't happen until over a thousand years later, what earth should we assume one is dwelling on in the meantime since it can't be either of these, per this scenario?

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


How is it even remotely reasonable that none of what is recorded in these 2 verses is meaning what is recorded in the following verse?

verse 36 is not addressing verse 35.

 

[Zao is life]

A kingdom and Earth/heaven are two different concepts.

I agree, but the Kingdom of Christ exists in His creation:

1 Corinthians 15
22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

Romans 8
19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility - not willingly but because of God who subjected it - in hope

21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.
​

23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.

IMO the above most certainly does link the new creation mentioned both by Peter and in the Revelation, to the bodily resurrection of the sons of God, at which time it will be revealed (by the resurrection of the sons of God) who the sons of God are:

1 Corinthians 15
22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

The creation - whether the current creation that is subject to the bondage of decay, or the new creation that has been delivered from the bondage of decay - and the Kingdom of Christ are two different concepts, I agree, but the Kingdom of Christ exists in the creation.

With regard to the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13), Peter links the manifestation of the new creation in which righteousness dwells to the destruction of the rudiments of this world and the current works of men and of Satan:

2 Peter 3:10, 13
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the

1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be

2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the

3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world in every New Testament verse it appears in;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed in every New Testament verse it appears in;

3. érgon refers to the works of God in some verses, to the works of men in some verses, or to the works of Satan in some verses every single time the word appears in the New Testament, without even one exception - and the list of verses where the word appears is very long.​

The Millennium is the time of the rod of iron rule over mortals while satan is imprisoned. Death, pain, tears, the sea and satan all still exist.​

The time of the rod of iron rule over mortals is not the case for Mount Zion, the Holy City, New Jerusalem, which refers to the resurrected saints, the bride of Christ, and is linked to the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21.

Death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan do not exist in the case of the resurrected saints during the millennium, either.

In the Bible the sea represents:

1. The nations; and
2. The abyss.

The abyss still exists during the thousand years. Death still exists during the thousand years.
Death does not exist during the thousand years, or at the close of it for New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ.
There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.​

The NHNE is the time after the rod of iron rule has expired, after the GWTJ, after all death and sin have been destroyed in a new world that does not have death, pain, tears, the sea and satan.

Are you saying that death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan still exist for the following people during the thousand years?:

Revelation 7
14 These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple.

And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters.

And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

If death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan do not still exist for the above people during the thousand years (nor at the close of the thousand years), then for whom do these things exist during the thousand years or at the close of the thousand years?

These things can only exist for those who are still mortal during the thousand years.

The new creation mentioned by Peter and in the Revelation is linked by Paul to the bodily resurrection of the sons of God, at which time it will be revealed (by the resurrection of the sons of God) who the sons of God are:

Romans 8
19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility - not willingly but because of God who subjected it - in hope
21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now.

23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.

1 Corinthians 15
22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

Is New Jerusalem (the resurrected saints) not linked to the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21?

Yes, they are linked. The Kingdom of Christ is in the creation.​

 

[ewq1938]

The time of the rod of iron rule over mortals is not the case for Mount Zion, the Holy City, New Jerusalem, which refers to the resurrected saints, the bride of Christ, and is linked to the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21.​

The resurrected saints are on the Earth when NJ comes down so it is not them or anyone else. It's a real city, which remained in heaven until the Earth was new, then it will come to this new Earth.

Death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan do not exist in the case of the resurrected saints during the millennium, either.​

Well, death doesn't for them personally but they can feel pain and have tears and satan does exist in the pit and will be let out once the time comes. Of course, the sea remains through the Mill and after but it does not exist in the NHNE. You simply have the timing of the NHNE wrong.

In the Bible the sea represents:

1. The nations; and
2. The abyss.​

It also represents salt water.

The abyss still exists during the thousand years. Death still exists during the thousand years.
Death does not exist during the thousand years, or at the close of it for New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ.
There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.​

Death still exists pre-Rev 21.

Are you saying that death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan still exist for the following people during the thousand years?:​

It all exists in the world they exist in but none of them exist in Rev 21 forward.

Revelation 7
14 These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple.

And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.

16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters.

And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

If death, pain, tears, the sea and Satan do not still exist for the above people during the thousand years (nor at the close of the thousand years), then for whom do these things exist during the thousand years or at the close of the thousand years?​

Rev 7 is the timeframe of Rev 21.

 

[JBO]

No they don't, because there is no distinction. The only distinction in the passage is the one you have eisegetically added using nothing but your imagination.

You view of Revelation 20:4 is as follows,

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

That is wrong. That is not what John wrote. And you are the eisegete You are the one who has eisegetically added to God's words. You are the one inserting words and meanings where none exist. But I understand. Without that sort of nonsense, then your premillennial view begins to fall apart.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Question for @Davidpt and CadyandZoe + any other Premillennialists.

Is it possible that we're maybe all conflating the Kingdom of God with the creation?

We exist now in this current Age suspended in-between the Kingdom of Christ that has come and the Kingdom of Christ that is coming, and between the new heavens and earth that has come and the new heavens and earth that is coming - which is all just an aspect of the Kingdom of God:

2 Corinthians 5 : New creation in Christ
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. UKJV

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. UKJV

It's all in Christ, so just as His Kingdom has come and His Kingdom is coming, so the new heavens and new earth has come and the new heavens and new earth is coming, because it's one and the same thing:

Hebrews 12 (New Jerusalem)
22 But all of you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel.

Revelation 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Aren't we maybe just wrongly linking the words "new heavens and new earth" with an entirely new creation, instead of linking it only to the Kingdom of Christ?

Personally, I do not believe that Peter is talking about an entirely new creation in 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:10, 13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the 1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be 2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the 3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed;

3. érgon refers to the works of men.​

So isn't "new heavens and new earth" just as much a metaphor for the Kingdom of God | Christ as New Jerusalem is for the church?

PS: I believe there is a strong possibility that the new heavens and new earth and the millennium commence at the same time, immediately following the destruction of the beast and false prophet:

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

C omparing scripture with scripture. THE WORLD TO COME Hebrews 2:5 "For He has not put in subjection to the angels the world to come , o...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

I wonder about that too.

Allow me to camp on your thoughts here and offer a couple of observations that might be of interest. Firstly, The Greek word "cosmos" which is typically translated "world" literally refers to any organized system. In English we have the word "cosmetics," based on the word "cosmos," referring to a woman's effort to bring order to her face and appearance.

The Apostle Paul came up with a phrase "stoichea to cosmu," which some translated as "the elementary principles of the world". But a friend of mind has suggested that Paul is focused on another ordered system: The Jewish religious practice. Consider the following passage.

Galatians 4:3-5

So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. ​

In this context the "stoichea to cosmu" is not the "elemental things of the world" as the NASB has it. Paul is talking about the "fundamental things of the Law" such as circumcision. Those who were living under the law were living under the "stoichea to cosmu", which were the rules, ordinances, and practices associated with the Jewish religious system. The "cosmos" in view is the Law and the "stoichea" are the rules associated with the Law.

Later, Paul will ask them, "Now that you have Christ, why do you want to place yourself under the "stoichea" (ordinances) again?" And he lists a few of the "stoichea" in view.

Galatians 4:8-11

However at that time, (J)when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.​

Perhaps this will help you in your studies. We may need to review 2 Peter 3 in light of this exegesis. Did Peter mean to say that the fires would burn up the elements of the world? Or perhaps he meant that the fires would burn up the "stoicea" of the Jewish religious system, even perhaps the Kabala and things such as these.

Secondly, one might expect God to create a new earth, given what man as done to the old one, but why a new heavens? Could it be that a new heavens would destroy the basis for astrology and pagan worship, which relies on the alignment of the planets?

Just sayin' :)

 

[Zao is life]

In the Bible the sea represents:

1. The nations; and
2. The abyss.

It also represents salt water.

Whoever gave you that idea?

 

[Zao is life]

I wonder about that too.

Allow me to camp on your thoughts here and offer a couple of observations that might be of interest. Firstly, The Greek word "cosmos" which is typically translated "world" literally refers to any organized system. In English we have the word "cosmetics," based on the word "cosmos," referring to a woman's effort to bring order to her face and appearance.

The Apostle Paul came up with a phrase "stoichea to cosmu," which some translated as "the elementary principles of the world". But a friend of mind has suggested that Paul is focused on another ordered system: The Jewish religious practice. Consider the following passage.

Galatians 4:3-5

So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. ​

In this context the "stoichea to cosmu" is not the "elemental things of the world" as the NASB has it. Paul is talking about the "fundamental things of the Law" such as circumcision. Those who were living under the law were living under the "stoichea to cosmu", which were the rules, ordinances, and practices associated with the Jewish religious system. The "cosmos" in view is the Law and the "stoichea" are the rules associated with the Law.

Later, Paul will ask them, "Now that you have Christ, why do you want to place yourself under the "stoichea" (ordinances) again?" And he lists a few of the "stoichea" in view.

Galatians 4:8-11

However at that time, (J)when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.​

Perhaps this will help you in your studies. We may need to review 2 Peter 3 in light of this exegesis.

Did Peter mean to say that the fires would burn up the elements of the world? Or perhaps he meant that the fires would burn up the "stoicea" of the Jewish religious system, even perhaps the Kabala and things such as these.

2 Thess 2
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.
9 The arrival of the lawless one will be by Satan's working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders.

So maybe there's a link to the above and fire destroying the works [érgon] of men

Secondly, one might expect God to create a new earth, given what man as done to the old one, but why a new heavens? Could it be that a new heavens would destroy the basis for astrology and pagan worship, which relies on the alignment of the planets?

Just sayin' :)

I personally think we read too much into the word "new". It's like stepping into your house after a wonder-working team renovated it. Or habitat that is restored after it was destroyed by industry. All things are new.

But if 2 Peter 3:10 is taken to be referring to the chemical elements of the planet and universe, then of necessity it has to be a completely new creation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

2 Thess 2
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.
9 The arrival of the lawless one will be by Satan's working with all kinds of miracles and signs and false wonders.

So maybe there's a link to the above and fire destroying the works [érgon] of men

I personally think we read too much into the word "new". It's like stepping into your house after a wonder-working team renovated it. Or habitat that is restored after it was destroyed by industry. All things are new.

But if 2 Peter 3:10 is taken to be referring to the chemical elements of the planet and universe, then of necessity, it has to be a completely new creation.

Yes, we know it will be a new creation because death (and presumably decay, dissolution, and ruin) will no longer be an aspect of our reality. The question I continue to ask myself is whether Peter is talking about the destruction of the earth, a cleansing of the earth, or a purging of man-made doctrines. I'm still waiting for the Lord to give me a hint. :)

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, we know it will be a new creation because death (and presumably decay, dissolution, and ruin) will no longer be an aspect of our reality. The question I continue to ask myself is whether Peter is talking about the destruction of the earth, a cleansing of the earth, or a purging of man-made doctrines. I'm still waiting for the Lord to give me a hint. :)

If we strip away the chapter divisions added in 1227 A.D and concentrate on the theme for the context.

2 Peter 2
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3
1 Beloved, I now write this second letter to you, in which I stir up your pure mind to remember
2 the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the Lord and Savior by us, the apostles.
3 First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts

7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up.

11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness,
12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat?
13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

Who is being punished? The earth because its rocks produced evil works? Or men?

 

[Timtofly]

The question then is, these that put on immortality at the last trump, would they begin experiencing eternity on this same old earth, or would their experiencing of eternity begin on the new earth? IOW, the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting new earth.

Keeping in mind some of the following.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

As to 2 Peter 3:13 when was he expecting to see that? As of the day of the Lord when it comes as a thief in the night, thus both the heavens and the earth passing away, that this verse is meaning immediately following those events? Or was he expecting to see the NHNE, a thousand years, a little season later post that of when 2 Peter 3:10 is initially fulfilled? IOW, this huge gap between when 2 Peter 3:10 is initially fulfilled and when 2 Peter 3:13 is initially fulfilled.

Surely, no Premil could think 2 Peter 3:10 is meaning a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming. What then, the fact that verse says the heavens and earth pass away at the time. What earth will one be dwelling on once it passes away since it can't be the same earth they were dwelling on if it passes away instead?

Clearly, some Premils haven't thought some of these things all the way through, and maybe shouldn't be debating with Amils in the meantime in regards to whether the millennium fits the here and now or after the 2nd coming, until they have first made sense out of everything I submitted above. Meaning Premils in general. Not necessarily meaning you, though it could include you if you are debating with Amils as to where the millennium logically fits, and that you insist the new earth doesn't arrive after the old earth passes per 2 Peter 3:10 until a thousand years later, thus no earth for anyone to be dwelling on in the meantime if the old one passed away and that a new one hasn't even arrived yet..

Were Adam and Eve in eternity prior to Adam's disobedience?

Why is being restored to Adam's pre-disobedient state meaning we enter eternity?

There is a new heaven and earth during the Millennium. It is without sin, and the bondage of sin along with natural decay and death.

The NHNE is not eternity either. The NHNE is a totally different reality but it has a definite beginning. Eternity has no beginning nor an end and is without time altogether. The LOF also has a beginning, but until a definite end is determined they will forever be in the LOF.

What seems to be eternal is the soul. But then again the soul starts that eternal existence at the point of conception. So the soul is as you put it already eternal in Adam's dead corruptible physical body, and will remain eternal even in God's permanent incorruptible physical body, no matter at what point in creation time that exchange happens. Or eternal without a body, as the case with those in sheol since the Flood of Noah's day.

Some here think no one exists without a physical body, as you seem to also associate the physical body with being eternal.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,"

Peter never says the earth passes away. He includes the earth as all the works on earth pass away. This happens at the Second Coming, and not Revelation 19. Have you thought about that at the Second Coming there is literally nothing made by man left on the earth, just the same as there are no more stars in the sky, because they all came to earth, as they are the angels? Humans declared that the stars are just gasses, a science fed to them by Satan himself. Notice how John puts this moment when the heavens pass away:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Every last star left heaven and came to earth. Heaven was rolled back as a scroll, it disappeared as in Peter's passing away. John says those stars landed similar to fig leaves hitting the ground. That does not describe how current science would describe the event. So if every star came to earth, that would mean this: they are the angels. The word star in Scripture has always referred to the angels. The morning star was an angel. The heavenly host, stars, are all angels. Jesus told us Himself he is bringing all the angels with Him at the Second Coming. Peter sees heaven passing away as being dissolved when in fact this Baptism of Fire represents both the angels coming to earth in fire, while all of man's works are burned up.

Nothing will be left on earth, except concrete rubble at the Second Coming. If any thing is left it will have been hidden underground by Satan and 10 world leaders so they can restore humanity as by a miracle. That is the head of the beast that is restored. Satan will deceive many by telling them the facts, that God just took everything away, and he can give life back to them.

That is the result of the coming of the Day of the Lord. But the Day of the Lord itself is earth restored for the Millennium reign of Christ which is the Day of the Lord that Peter told everyone not to be ignorant about. So yes we wait for the heavens and earth to be restored with eternal righteousness. The earth has to live through the final harvest that removes all eternal souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The majority of souls will remain dead until they are cast into the LOF after the Day of the Lord. By dead, they are either in sheol or death, as the 4th Seal introduces Death as a secondary location of the soul besides sheol.

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him."

These two locations remain until after the Day of the Lord, and then:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The first death is the soul placed in death or sheol. The second death is all being placed into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

As I just pointed out in the previous reply, there won't be the same old earth you imagine might be where this one thousand years begins. Since the new earth shall indeed be everlasting, how can it begin with one thousand literal years? What happens then? Will there be another new heaven and new earth to replace the new one that was only for the first one thousand years?

There is no mention of the earth passing away in 2 Peter 3, only the heavens.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise."

Even John says that the heavens roll back as a scroll, as in passing away. But not the earth. The heavens are forever changed during the Day of the Lord.

It is Amil who add to and insert their interpretation into Scripture, not Premil.

Premil accept the chronological order between Revelation 20 and 21 just like Amil. It is Amil who don't accept the chronological order between Revelation 6-19 and chapter 20. Revelation 6-19 have to happen before the Millennial Kingdom can start. Revelation 20 is just the continuation of Revelation 6-19. What happens in Revelation 6 is the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is 2 Peter 3:10.

In the first century humans were not dependent on today's convenient lifestyle. We have more to loose than those in the first century. We have been taught for two millennia that loosing everything really won't matter, until there was a mental shift change a few hundred years ago and now we totally rely on earthly goods. Amil continue to think there will not be an instant of pain and suffering, as all will be over within hours. It is Amil who will not be prepared to live in the aftermath of the Second Coming.

Amil assume a greater escape clause than even pre-trib people are accused of. They think it will get worse and the AC takes stuff away. The reality that everyone is missing is that God literally takes everything away, and some will be stuck on earth waiting for the comfort of a new heaven and earth, still waiting for that everlasting righteousness.

Peter was not comparing his ending with the one mentioned in Revelation 20:12 as Revelation had not even been written yet. Peter was comparing his ending to the Flood of water on the earth, in Noah's day. Certainly there was not a totally different earth at that time. So why would there be a totally different earth that Peter was talking about? No one had been told or shown what John wrote about in Revelation 20, nor 21, before John was a witness to the very end. Even Isaiah 65 does not by necessity mean Revelation 21.

Many argue that the Jews were waiting for the restoration of this physical earth. Not by misunderstanding the OT, but obviously by understanding it better than folks today do. But the restoration would not happen with the Messiah alone. It would be by Jesus as Prince at the Second Coming. And it still was not a different creation, because a new creation does not need restoration. This creation is the creation that needs restored.

And Peter was still telling us that the Day of the Lord is the restoration of this creation, like the Flood was a restoration of the earth suffering from human wickedness that had gotten out of hand while Noah watched for 500 years.

Peter is not saying that the Day of the Lord is just an act of divine judgment the same as the Flood. Humans today cannot get any worse off than those prior to the Flood. The Flood did not restore the earth by removing Adam's transgression. That is the contrast Peter is making. The Day of the Lord is not one of punishment, but the total removal of the punishment of Adam's disobedience. Yes, there will be judgment and even wrath because of sin, but that is a poor view on the Day of the Lord, as the Day of the Lord is the restoration of creation. That is why it should not be dismissed as already taken place in the last 2 millennia.

 

[Timtofly]

So isn't "new heavens and new earth" just as much a metaphor for the Kingdom of God | Christ as New Jerusalem is for the church?

PS: I believe there is a strong possibility that the new heavens and new earth and the millennium commence at the same time, immediately following the destruction of the beast and false prophet:

No metaphor in Revelation 20 nor 21.

The physical reality of the New Jerusalem is described as a bride. But the church as a bride is not the reality that is symbolically referred to as the New Jerusalem.

If the bride was already in existence in the first century that would mean as preterist state the NHNE was already a reality in the first century because you say that is not real but symbolic of the reality of the church.

The reality is that the Day of the Lord is a physical 1000 year period that happens prior to the next reality in Revelation 21.

The Day of the Lord is not explicitly stated in Revelation 20 nor 21. The thousand years and NHNE with a New Jerusalem is not explicit in 2 Peter 3 even if one argues Peter calls for a new heaven and earth.

The same with Isaiah 65. However Peter does explain in context that the Day of the Lord is related the same way a day is related to a thousand years. So we know that Peter is not saying the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours. The Day of the Lord is a thousand years. We also know that the Day of the Lord takes place prior to the GWT Judgment when this current heavens and earth are returned to God thus they cease to exist. That is why the NHNE in Revelation 21 are not the same as the thousand years prior to the GWT Judgment.