They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Davidpt]

What you said is true and I agree. I was using the term "history" to indicate this age -- what we typically call "history." I meant nothing more than to observe a significant transformation taking place in Revelation 20:11 when the world will be significantly different.

The question then is, these that put on immortality at the last trump, would they begin experiencing eternity on this same old earth, or would their experiencing of eternity begin on the new earth? IOW, the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting new earth.

Keeping in mind some of the following.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

As to 2 Peter 3:13 when was he expecting to see that? As of the day of the Lord when it comes as a thief in the night, thus both the heavens and the earth passing away, that this verse is meaning immediately following those events? Or was he expecting to see the NHNE, a thousand years, a little season later post that of when 2 Peter 3:10 is initially fulfilled? IOW, this huge gap between when 2 Peter 3:10 is initially fulfilled and when 2 Peter 3:13 is initially fulfilled.

Surely, no Premil could think 2 Peter 3:10 is meaning a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming. What then, the fact that verse says the heavens and earth pass away at the time. What earth will one be dwelling on once it passes away since it can't be the same earth they were dwelling on if it passes away instead?

Clearly, some Premils haven't thought some of these things all the way through, and maybe shouldn't be debating with Amils in the meantime in regards to whether the millennium fits the here and now or after the 2nd coming, until they have first made sense out of everything I submitted above. Meaning Premils in general. Not necessarily meaning you, though it could include you if you are debating with Amils as to where the millennium logically fits, and that you insist the new earth doesn't arrive after the old earth passes per 2 Peter 3:10 until a thousand years later, thus no earth for anyone to be dwelling on in the meantime if the old one passed away and that a new one hasn't even arrived yet..

 

[rwb]

He will gather them back into the land. He will cleanse them from their idolatry. He will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. He will put His Spirit within them and they will walk in his statutes and they will be careful to obey his ordinances. They will live in the land of their forefathers.

This is exactly what Christ has done, and through the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is doing! Those who come into the Kingdom of God have been gathered, and cleansed, and are being gathered and cleansed as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God continues to be preached unto all the nations of the world. Those who have been born again and come into the Kingdom of God already have a new heart, and others too that shall join them as the Gospel of the Kingdom is proclaimed also shall have a new heart and new spirit within them. Because the Holy Spirit sent from Christ is both in those already spiritually in the Kingdom of God, and He shall be in all who have come and are coming after them into the spiritual Kingdom of God. We who are in the Kingdom of God according to grace through faith when we are born again walk according to the will of God, in complete surrender and dependance upon Christ who has fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law. The Kingdom of God will encompass the whole New Earth, that includes the land once occupied by the faithful saints of Old.

You're preoccupied with the physical, and its true the Kingdom of God will be physically upon the New Earth. But in this age/time/era when the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, the Kingdom of God being built through the Gospel is NOT physical, but now in this age it is a spiritual Kingdom of God located in heaven. And the only entrance into the Kingdom of God now is through the Spirit of Christ in us. Those who belong to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven have entered there through the resurrection life of Christ. That's why those who worship the Father in this age of TIME (the hour that now is) must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

John 4:23-24 (KJV) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

True worshippers have their hearts and minds fixed on things from above, not of this world, which is physical and shall pass away.

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

I've heard this idea of God's name needing to be vindicated before! What in heaven's name are you talking about? God's name needs no vindication, nor does His holiness, that is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity. Instead, history will continue until God has demonstrated the holiness of his name throughout the Millennial Period. Only after a sufficient amount of time has passed to prove that God cannot be defeated, will we enter into eternity."

This may be what you may sincerely believe, but unfortunately you must contend with the Word of God that disagrees with what you believe. Sadly, I've discovered trying to convince Premillennialists that they sincerely believe a doctrine of deception, is like demanding that a new born infant must not cry when they are hungry.

 

[rwb]

This was an excellent post, very insightful. Where I might disagree is what you said in the last paragraph---"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity". How can eternity not begin for those that have put on immortality at the last trump(1 Corinthians 15:51-57)?

At least you're honest enough to acknowledge the inconsistencies C&Z have presented. Sadly, I also doubt that it will make any difference!

 

[rwb]

What you said is true and I agree. I was using the term "history" to indicate this age -- what we typically call "history." I meant nothing more than to observe a significant transformation taking place in Revelation 20:11 when the world will be significantly different.

That's a major understatement to say the least! Notice at the GWTJ the earth and heaven have fled away; and there was found no place for them. Not only different but a new heaven and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, not for one thousand years, but forever!

Revelation 20:11 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[rwb]

The question then is, these that put on immortality at the last trump, would they begin experiencing eternity on this same old earth, or would their experiencing of eternity begin on the new earth? IOW, the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting new earth.

As I just pointed out in the previous reply, there won't be the same old earth you imagine might be where this one thousand years begins. Since the new earth shall indeed be everlasting, how can it begin with one thousand literal years? What happens then? Will there be another new heaven and new earth to replace the new one that was only for the first one thousand years?

Clearly, some Premils haven't thought some of these things all the way through, and maybe shouldn't be debating with Amils in the meantime in regards to whether the millennium fits the here and now or after the 2nd coming, until they have first made sense out of everything I submitted above.

Clearly! You really should not continue to try to disprove the doctrine of Amillennialism when it is crystal clear to Amils that you have not rightly understood, and that to date you have been so preoccupied with proving the Premil doctrine of deception that you continue to willfully refuse to hear the truth presented in Amil. IMO it seems some of you would rather cling to doctrine of deception, rather than to admit that your doctrine cannot be reconciled with what sayeth the Word of God. IMO it seems not to matter to some of you at all when you are challenged by inconsistencies and contradiction your doctrine of deception forces into the Bible.

 

[Zao is life]

At least you're honest enough to acknowledge the inconsistencies C&Z have presented. Sadly, I also doubt that it will make any difference!

Which is more than one can say about you because you cannot acknowledge the inconsistencies in your own arguments. Sadly, no matter how much the inconsistencies in your arguments are clearly presented, it makes no difference!

 

[Zao is life]

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Most who read this verse fail to understand a critical distinction between the "souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" and "those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands".

No they don't, because there is no distinction. The only distinction in the passage is the one you have eisegetically added using nothing but your imagination.

 

[Zao is life]

Look at all the gymnastics Amil has to pull in order to make it appear their position is the correct one here. While Premil, OTOH, simply sticks to the text here. Thus no gymnastics necessary.

Right. They don't even realize how ridiculously clumsy and impossible those gymnastics are. They break their backs in the process and don't realize that their entire theology causes them to walk around in the scriptures limping in their own partial blindness.

 

[Zao is life]

It is a rhetorical question that each professing faith in Christ should ask and answer for themselves! Not designed to deceive!

Your question, or Satan's? Because I've no doubt Satan would claim his question was merely rhetorical and not designed to deceive too. So I'm not sure whose question you're referring to above.

 

[Zao is life]

I explained this. But perhaps I didn't do a good enough Job.

Let's go back to the Lord's prayer.

"Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven."

hollowed be thy name
Jesus taught us that among our primary concerns is God's desire to make his name holy once again. And you might ask, "What do you mean? God's name is already holy." Yes, of course it is. But the name of God was blasphemed among the nations. And God desires to vindicate his name among the nations.

How was God's name blasphemed among the nations? We can begin with Paul's epistle to the Romans. In the passage where Paul was critical of Jewish teachers, he says the following.

Romans 2:22-24

You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.​

How did the Jewish people blaspheme the name of God?
(Review Isaiah 52:5 and Ezekiel 36-20-38)

According to Isaiah, the nations said that Yahweh had no cause to allow his people to be taken into exile. Instead, foreign gods overpowered Yahweh and took his people away from him. According to Ezekiel, the Jewish people profaned the name of God because although they were Yahweh's people, they came out of their land. This entire drama was being played out in front of the nations who claimed that Yahweh was inept as a leader, a teacher, and a protector. He was such a bad god, he wouldn't keep a people for himself.

In light of that, how does God intend to restore his holy name? God answers that question in Ezekiel chapter 36, especially verses 20 through 32. In that passage God declares that he will act to restore his name. He will vindicate the holiness of his name which has been profaned among the nations. Then, he says, "The Nations will know that I am the Lord."

He will gather them back into the land. He will cleanse them from their idolatry. He will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. He will put His Spirit within them and they will walk in his statutes and they will be careful to obey his ordinances. They will live in the land of their forefathers.

Why is this important? To vindicate the holiness of God's name, there are several aspects that need to be present during that time. The reason why God's name was profaned among the nations is that they claimed that their gods were able to defeat Yahweh in battle. They believed that Yahweh was too weak and powerless to protect his people from their enemies.

"If God wants to prove them wrong, then He has to accomplish several goals. Firstly, He needs to bring the people back to the land. Secondly, He needs to put the law in the hearts of His people. Thirdly, He has to restore the land and rebuild the waste places. Fourthly, He needs to establish His will on earth as it is in heaven. Fifthly, He has to bring Israel's enemies against her again. And finally, He needs to defeat Israel's enemies while the rest of the nations watch. In this way, God will vindicate the holiness of His name."

As the world watches, it is important for God to uphold the sanctity of his name. This can only happen if the Gentile nations exist. Therefore, these events must occur before the next age arrives. During this age, Jesus will conquer all of God's enemies, including death. When this is done, he will present the kingdom to the Father.

"I am convinced that at the second coming of Christ, we will not enter into eternity. Instead, history will continue until God has demonstrated the holiness of his name throughout the Millennial Period. Only after a sufficient amount of time has passed to prove that God cannot be defeated, will we enter into eternity."

Question for @Davidpt and CadyandZoe + any other Premillennialists.

Is it possible that we're maybe all conflating the Kingdom of God with the creation?

We exist now in this current Age suspended in-between the Kingdom of Christ that has come and the Kingdom of Christ that is coming, and between the new heavens and earth that has come and the new heavens and earth that is coming - which is all just an aspect of the Kingdom of God:

2 Corinthians 5 : New creation in Christ
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. UKJV

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. UKJV

It's all in Christ, so just as His Kingdom has come and His Kingdom is coming, so the new heavens and new earth has come and the new heavens and new earth is coming, because it's one and the same thing:

Hebrews 12 (New Jerusalem)
22 But all of you are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel.

Revelation 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Aren't we maybe just wrongly linking the words "new heavens and new earth" with an entirely new creation, instead of linking it only to the Kingdom of Christ?

Personally, I do not believe that Peter is talking about an entirely new creation in 2 Peter 3:

2 Peter 3:10, 13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the 1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be 2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the 3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed;

3. érgon refers to the works of men.​

So isn't "new heavens and new earth" just as much a metaphor for the Kingdom of God | Christ as New Jerusalem is for the church?

PS: I believe there is a strong possibility that the new heavens and new earth and the millennium commence at the same time, immediately following the destruction of the beast and false prophet:

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

C omparing scripture with scripture. THE WORLD TO COME Hebrews 2:5 "For He has not put in subjection to the angels the world to come , o...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[JBO]

No they don't, because there is no distinction. The only distinction in the passage is the one you have eisegetically added using nothing but your imagination.

No it is a distinction demanded by the Greek grammar.

 

[Zao is life]

No it is a distinction demanded by the Greek grammar.

Nope. Not demanded by the Greek grammar at all.

Revelation 20:4 Interlinear: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the be

biblehub.com

It's just your own imagination making Greek grammar demand it when it doesn't so that you can have support for your own imagination eisegetically inserting it into the text.

 

[JBO]

IOW, your interpretation denies that the following has happened to this particular group of saints, thus why John sees the souls of them as well.

But that is not what John says. That may be what you want him to say, but it is not.

 

[Davidpt]

Right. They don't even realize how ridiculously clumsy and impossible those gymnastics are. They break their backs in the process and don't realize that their entire theology causes them to walk around in the scriptures limping in their own partial blindness.

To be fair I guess, some Premils also use gymnastics at times, as my post #781 shows. Anyone that can deny that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming is then making nonsense out of the passages I brought up. If 2 Peter 3:10 reveals that the day of the Lord comes as thief in the night involving the 2nd coming, which then results in the old earth passing away at the time, how then can anyone insist that the NHNE don't arrive until over a thousand years later? What earth is one dwelling on in the meantime since it can't be this present earth if it passed away instead, and that it can't be the new earth if that is still a thousand years away? Duh.

I have no choice but to agree with the Bible even if that means I am agreeing with Amils as to when the NHNE initially begin. If I am correct that the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, and the fact that there is no way I can possibly be incorrect that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming, as in soon afterwards rather than a thousand years later, I have no choice but to conclude that the NHNE begins with the thousand years.

If not that, the only other option is this. Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, not Premils instead. But since I am not remotely convinced that Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, but that I am fully convinced where the beginning of the NHNE fit, I have to stick with option 1 in that case.

Or I could do like some other Premils do per their interpretation of some of these events. I can make nonsense out of the passages I submitted per #781 rather than sense out of them. As if it makes sense, that if this earth passes away because of the day of the Lord involving the 2nd coming, but that the NHNE doesn't arrive until a thousand years later, that in the meantime there is still an earth to dwell on.

 

[Zao is life]

But that is not what John says. That may be what you want him to say, but it is not.

@Davidpt

This is apparently what JBO means:

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them,

and they were alive in their bodies (zao) and they reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(They were alive in their bodies - zao - for one thousand nine hundred + years for those born in the first century, for two hundred and four years for those born in 1820, etc - use your mental calculator).

And I saw another group: The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (reigned with Him, not shall reign with Him).

(Not sure of which of the two groups is it being repeated in verse 6 that they shall reign with Him a thousand years, but that's the gist of it).

It's all just mental gymnastics that results in ridiculousness, IMO.​

 

[Zao is life]

To be fair I guess, some Premils also use gymnastics at times, as my post #781 shows. Anyone that can deny that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming is then making nonsense out of the passages I brought up. If 2 Peter 3:10 reveals that the day of the Lord comes as thief in the night involving the 2nd coming, which then results in the old earth passing away at the time, how then can anyone insist that the NHNE don't arrive until over a thousand years later? What earth is one dwelling on in the meantime since it can't be this present earth if it passed away instead, and that it can't be the new earth if that is still a thousand years away? Duh.

I have no choice but to agree with the Bible even if that means I am agreeing with Amils as to when the NHNE initially begin. If I am correct that the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, and the fact that there is no way I can possibly be incorrect that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming, as in soon afterwards rather than a thousand years later, I have no choice but to conclude that the NHNE begins with the thousand years.

If not that, the only other option is this. Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, not Premils instead. But since I am not remotely convinced that Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, but that I am fully convinced where the beginning of the NHNE fit, I have to stick with option 1 in that case.

Or I could do like some other Premils do per their interpretation of some of these events. I can make nonsense out of the passages I submitted per #781 rather than sense out of them. As if it makes sense, that if this earth passes away because of the day of the Lord involving the 2nd coming, but that the NHNE doesn't arrive until a thousand years later, that in the meantime there is still an earth to dwell on.

We are on the same page with everything you say above. Except that it involves not only somewhat less, but a great deal less mental gymnastics to have a millennium following the return of Christ and a NHNE following that millennium, than to have a millennium that is a double millennium (1,000 years x 2) and people being alive (zao) in their bodies and reigning with Christ for that entire period, or less, depending on when they were born.​

 

[rwb]

I have no choice but to agree with the Bible even if that means I am agreeing with Amils as to when the NHNE initially begin. If I am correct that the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, and the fact that there is no way I can possibly be incorrect that the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming, as in soon afterwards rather than a thousand years later, I have no choice but to conclude that the NHNE begins with the thousand years.

Do you deny the thousand years regardless of whether you believe it to be literal or symbolic, equates to TIME? Of course it does! Now you've created a problem for yourself because John writes in Rev 10:5-7 that when the seventh angel begins to sound time/delay should be no longer. How can there be one thousand more years of TIME after the seventh trumpet sounds? The only TIME that shall come after the sounding of the seventh trumpet is Satan's little season. Surely you don't believe Satan's little season is at the beginning of the NHNE where only righteousness dwells?

If not that, the only other option is this. Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, not Premils instead. But since I am not remotely convinced that Amils are correct about where the thousand years fit, but that I am fully convinced where the beginning of the NHNE fit, I have to stick with option 1 in that case.

It's not about whose right and who is not! It's about rightly understanding the Word of God. The Word of God can only be rightly divided when it is a cohesive whole that does not build upon one contradiction after another.

 

[Zao is life]

Do you deny the thousand years regardless of whether you believe it to be literal or symbolic, equates to TIME? Of course it does! Now you've created a problem for yourself because John writes in Rev 10:5-7 that when the seventh angel begins to sound time/delay should be no longer. How can there be one thousand more years of TIME after the seventh trumpet sounds? The only TIME that shall come after the sounding of the seventh trumpet is Satan's little season. Surely you don't believe Satan's little season is at the beginning of the NHNE where only righteousness dwells?


It's not about whose right and who is not! It's about rightly understanding the Word of God. The Word of God can only be rightly divided when it is a cohesive whole that does not build upon one contradiction after another.

You have created a problem for yourself because John writes in Revelation 10:5-7 that there will be no further delay in time and you keep making it obvious that you change the meaning of every text to suit whatever you want it to mean and cannot be taken seriously about what you say regarding your false assertion regarding Revelation 10:5-7, or anything else.

6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time [chrónos] no longer. UKJV

[Strongs Greek] 05550 χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os
of uncertain derivation;
a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from 2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from 165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

6 and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, "There will be no more delay! NETfree Version

Revelation 10:6 Interlinear: and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet,

biblehub.com

In the above page they translate it as "delay no longer will there be!"

@rwb these facts have been pointed out to you by a number of people so many times that by now you have exposed your own dishonesty and disrespect for the scriptures by twisting and changing their meaning whenever and wherever you please, and totally lacking diligence - and you have done this time and again, too many times to count.

You cannot be taken seriously​

 

[Zao is life]

The Word of God can only be rightly divided when it is a cohesive whole that does not build upon one contradiction after another.

The way you twist and change the meaning of the Word of God in scripture after scripture in order to make it fit as a cohesive whole with your own false doctrine created by you, is not rightly dividing the Word of God.

 

[Zao is life]

As I just pointed out in the previous reply, there won't be the same old earth you imagine might be where this one thousand years begins.​

All your posts have shown that you don't even have any idea what you're talking about when it comes to scripture's reference to a new heavens and new earth, and you need to go back to school, because what Paul says to those he's talking to in 1 Corinthians 3:2 is true of you. You don't even understand what "no more delay" means in Revelation 10:6.

Maybe you realize you understand very little of the Word of God, and this is why you lecture @Davidpt and others so often, implying or stating in your posts that they don't know what they're talking about - it's your red herring each time you do this to hide your lack of understanding of the Word of God.​