SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[GracePeace]

So then, by the Grace of God alone, through faith in Jesus Christ, God HAS saved you.
Evidently, you don't believe that of God, but rather believe that by you doing good works, you shall save yourself, by way of another gospel of your belief.

To believe in Jesus, is to TRUST Him at His word.
Heb. 13
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Through our faith in the shed blood of Jesus, we ARE sanctified.
The works of OUR flesh, whether good or bad, sanctifies NOTHING!

Actually, you don't know what "Salvation" even is--it's compared to the Jews' salvation from Egypt, but after their salvation, they sinned, so they didn't inherit the promise but died under God's wrath in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10).

Salvation is God getting us out of the slavery we were in, etc, but it's only the start of something, not its end. The end is determined by whether we obey or rebel.

 

[GracePeace]

So then, by the Grace of God alone, through faith in Jesus Christ, God HAS saved you.
Evidently, you don't believe that of God, but rather believe that by you doing good works, you shall save yourself, by way of another gospel of your belief.

To believe in Jesus, is to TRUST Him at His word.
Heb. 13
[5] Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Through our faith in the shed blood of Jesus, we ARE sanctified.
The works of OUR flesh, whether good or bad, sanctifies NOTHING!

No, this is just another example of you believing in just one SNIPPET of Scripture, and not the whole.

The same Paul that says you're justified by grace through faith ALSO says you're "condemned" (not "justified") if you sin (Ro 14:23), and only doers of the Law will be justified when God judges (Ro 2:6-16), and they alone will be repaid with eternal life, as I stated--the same assertion which you have consistently failed to reply to because you are being deceptive, and trying to move the conversation somewhere else, so that you can maintain your lie instead of being a man and facing the reality of Scripture.

 

[Earburner]

Well, you should accept what Jesus teaches in John 15... those that do not abide IN Him bearing good fruit... are cut off the vine. God is not mocked, What we sow is what we reap.,.. to say otherwise is to mock God.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Those being disobedient after having been born again... will not be spending eternity with the Lord.
The whole purpose of the Gospel is to turn man from the power of the devil to the power of God so they can receive forgiveness of sins!

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins

Not to be just forgiven of sin... but to actually be DELIVERED from walking in sin and in STOP SINNING!

The bottom line is those that do not turn away from their sin, don't go to Heaven.
We turn away from our sin thru the Lord as we can do all things thru Christ Who strengthens us (Philippians 4:13)

So no, walking in good works in not something done in our own ability, the Lord empowers us IF we abide IN Him and those not walking with the Lord are being disobedient and are not walking in the good works we have been ordained to walk in as we see in Ephesians 2:10

It's very important that we look at the whole counsel of the Lord to get His ways of being and doing right.

The "good works" ARE the "good Fruit", which are the attributes and character of God, being the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 5
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts [aka "spiritual sacrifices". 1 Peter 2:5].
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

> All of the above is to be accomplished in the following manner:
Rom. 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world:  BUT be ye transformed BY the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Earburner]

No, this is just another example of you believing in just one SNIPPET of Scripture, and not the whole.

The same Paul that says you're justified by grace through faith ALSO says you're "condemned" (not "justified") if you sin (Ro 14:23), and only doers of the Law will be justified when God judges (Ro 2:6-16), and they alone will be repaid with eternal life, as I stated--the same assertion which you have consistently failed to reply to because you are being deceptive, and trying to move the conversation somewhere else, so that you can maintain your lie instead of being a man and facing the reality of Scripture.

All that I am saying, is scriptural!!

Unfortunately, you want to view the scriptures as 100% literal, whereas I am applying the scriptures through that which the Holy Spirit teaches, as Paul conveyed in 1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

All should re-read and study all of 1 Cor. 2

 

[GracePeace]

The "good works" ARE the "good Fruit", which are the attributes and character of God, being the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 5
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts [aka "spiritual sacrifices". 1 Peter 2:5].
[25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

> All of the above is to be accomplished in the following manner:
Rom. 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world:  BUT be ye transformed BY the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So, you're AGREEING with Galatians 6:6-10, that we are repaid eternal life for righteousness, BUT you are only stipulating that "walking by the Spirit" is the method whereby we do those good deeds we are repaid eternal life for doing?

 

[GracePeace]

All that I am saying, is scriptural!!

Unfortunately, you want to view the scriptures as 100% literal, whereas I am applying the scriptures through that which the Holy Spirit teaches, as Paul conveyed in 1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

All should re-read and study all of 1 Cor. 2

By saying "All that I am saying is Scriptural", you aren't saying anything other than what I said you were doing: believing in Scripture, yes, but you're believing only your favorite little snippets of Scripture, not the whole. I never denied that what you were saying was Scriptural, just not the WHOLE of Scripture's teachings.

You have a lop-sided belief in Scripture--these Scriptures over here, but not those Scriptures over there.

Again, you've failed to reply to the reality that doers of good are repaid eternal life.

 

[GracePeace]

Unfortunately, you want to view the scriptures as 100% literal, whereas I am applying the scriptures through that which the Holy Spirit teaches, as Paul conveyed in 1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

All should re-read and study all of 1 Cor. 2

You have no proof that I am erring in my interpretation of Scripture.
More than that, you REFUSE to discuss those Scriptures I raise that disprove your beliefs--instead, you quote some other verses of Scripture. Show how I am misrepresenting the doctrines Paul taught IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I QUOTED.

You have only an empty, baseless accusation that I am "not spiritually interpreting Scripture, but interpreting them literally".
I could actually say the same of you (and would actually have a stronger case, since you refuse to even countenance harmonizing Scripture with Scripture, but just block out texts that don't agree with what is convenient to your beliefs)--that it is YOU who are not viewing the Scriptures spiritually, but are misinterpreting them.

 

[Taken]

Lots of talking, still nowhere do you address those verses I raised proving eternal life is repaid doers of good.

Try again. Just quote the verses I cited, and offer a better interpretation.

Your demand is rejected.

Something you should have learned…first.

2 Pet 1:
[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[GracePeace]

Your demand is rejected.

Something you should have learned…first.

2 Pet 1:
[20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1. LOL It's not a "demand", nor is it "mine", it's just a logical and reasonable expectation that we would be discussing the same topic in a discussion--the last time I checked, this was a discussion forum--and the fact that you refuse to address those Scriptures says everything we need to know. You're afraid of the truth. Thanks for conceding the point.

2. Why are you quoting 2 Pet 1:20--as if that proves YOU have the "public" interpretation and I have the "private" interpretation? LOL You're the one who is running away from Scripture. You are the one with a man made tradition that nullifies God's Word. I, on the other hand, believe everything you believe--except I believe a little more, because you apparently only believe snippets of Scripture, whereas I seek to believe it all.

 

[Earburner]

So, you're AGREEING with Galatians 6:6-10, that we are repaid eternal life for righteousness, BUT you are only stipulating that "walking by the Spirit" is the method whereby we do those good deeds we are repaid eternal life for doing?

What are the "good deeds" called, that are performed by Christ within us?
See Gal. 5:22

 

[Taken]

…you're believing only your favorite little snippets of Scripture, not the whole.

All Scripture is TRUE.
All Scripture Does NOT APPLY the same to Every Person.
It is a WISE person who knows the Difference.

Again, you've failed to reply to the reality that doers of good are repaid eternal life.

A RE-payment settles a DEBT.

God settles His Debt’s with REWARDS.

Your BROAD “do good-er stance” appears to be based on your REALITY INTERPRETATION of what “DOING GOOD” means.

Here’s a reality check scenario…
A young boy takes “life-saving” mediation. The boy and his brother get into a squabble.
The brother dumps the boy’s medication down the toilet. The parents discover the situation. The pharmacy is closed. The dad breaks into the pharmacy, finds the medication the boy needs, gives it to the boy. The boy is saved. Did the dad do good by giving the boy his life-saving medication?

In “reality” yes.
“Spiritually” no.

There are plenty of “do gooders”, who give away what they have FIRST “ill-gotten”.

God REWARDS a man who has GIVEN to God, the WHOLE of what Belongs to the mans WHOLE being….body, soul, spirit.

 

[GracePeace]

What are the "good deeds" called, that are performed by Christ within us?
See Gal. 5:22

1. This is completely beside the point, another sidestep of the doctrine: life is REPAID those who work what is good.

2. The passage says, "God is at work in you to will and do for His good pleasure", so you have to "obey" (Php 2)--ie, if you want it to say, "God is at work, therefore it's automatic", that's not the teaching of Scripture, it's that keeping God's commands is "not burdensome".

 

[GracePeace]

All Scripture is TRUE.
All Scripture Does NOT APPLY the same to Every Person.
It is a WISE person who knows the Difference.



A RE-payment settles a DEBT.

God settles His Debt’s with REWARDS.

Your BROAD “do good-er stance” appears to be based on your REALITY INTERPRETATION of what “DOING GOOD” means.

Here’s a reality check scenario…
A young boy takes “life-saving” mediation. The boy and his brother get into a squabble.
The brother dumps the boy’s medication down the toilet. The parents discover the situation. The pharmacy is closed. The dad breaks into the pharmacy, finds the medication the boy needs, gives it to the boy. The boy is saved. Did the dad do good by giving the boy his life-saving medication?

In “reality” yes.
“Spiritually” no.

There are plenty of “do gooders”, who give away what they have FIRST “ill-gotten”.

God REWARDS a man who has GIVEN to God, the WHOLE of what Belongs to the mans WHOLE being….body, soul, spirit.

You're still unwilling to accept Scripture--you still don't believe it. That's fine. Just say so--just say "My tradition doesn't have any room for that Scriptural doctrine that we are repaid eternal life for doing good."

 

[Taken]

1. LOL It's not a "demand",
You're afraid of the truth. Thanks for conceding the point.

Spouting false accusations, always reveals your point has no merit.

. 2. Why are you quoting 2 Pet 1:20--as if that proves YOU have the "public" interpretation and I have the "private" interpretation?

“Public interpretation” ? LOL

LOL You're the one who is running away from Scripture. You are the one with a man made tradition that nullifies God's Word. I, on the other hand, believe everything you believe--except I believe a little more, because you apparently only believe snippets of Scripture, whereas I seek to believe it all.

Seems your understanding is amiss…
Believing ALL of Scripture is one thing, which I have NEVER denied.

Believing ALL of Scripture APPLIES to Everyone, is laughable on its face.

 

[GracePeace]

Spouting false accusations, always reveals your point has no merit.

How is it in any way a "false accusation" to merely observe what you are doing?
Are you one of those people who say men can become women--I just have to refuse to observe what my eyes are telling me?

Just go ahead and address the passages I raised, and you can be done with all of this.

“Public interpretation” ? LOL

LOL Obviously, "public" would be the opposite of "private"--I was being humorous, because it was humorous that you would even raise that verse as if it somehow debunked my point or proved your point for you.

Seems your understanding is amiss…
Believing ALL of Scripture is one thing, which I have NEVER denied.

Well, then, address the passages I cited.

Believing ALL of Scripture APPLIES to Everyone, is laughable on its face.

So, are you conceding that those passages do teach that THOSE men are repaid with eternal life for doing good, but arguing that WE are not repaid eternal life for doing good, because those passages supposedly don't apply to us?

 

[Taken]

You're still unwilling to accept Scripture--you still don't believe it. That's fine. Just say so--just say "My tradition doesn't have any room for that Scriptural doctrine that we are repaid eternal life for doing good."

You are persistent in playing the devils advocate….repetitively accusing then begging one to agree with your false accusations….
EWEE.

 

[GracePeace]

You are persistent in playing the devils advocate….repetitively accusing then begging one to agree with your false accusations….
EWEE.

Just observing what you are doing--running away from doctrine that is inconvenient for your traditions--that's all.

 

[Earburner]

You have no proof that I am erring in my interpretation of Scripture.
More than that, you REFUSE to discuss those Scriptures I raise that disprove your beliefs--instead, you quote some other verses of Scripture. Show how I am misrepresenting the doctrines Paul taught IN THOSE SCRIPTURES I QUOTED.

You have only an empty, baseless accusation that I am "not spiritually interpreting Scripture, but interpreting them literally".
I could actually say the same of you (and would actually have a stronger case, since you refuse to even countenance harmonizing Scripture with Scripture, but just block out texts that don't agree with what is convenient to your beliefs)--that it is YOU who are not viewing the Scriptures spiritually, but are misinterpreting them.

Hurling accusations isn't going deter me or anyone else, who do understand how it is that born again Christians offer up "spiritual sacrifices", by presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice for God to transform us into the characteristics of Christ, by the renewing of our minds, through the Holy Spirit of God.
1Peter 2:5, 9.
Rom. 8
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
John 14:27

 

[GracePeace]

Hurling accusations isn't going deter me or anyone else, who do understand how it is that born again Christians offer up "spiritual sacrifices", by presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice for God to transform us into the characteristics of Christ, by the renewing of our minds, through the Holy Spirit of God.
1Peter 2:5, 9.
Rom. 8
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
John 14:27

Again and again, these issues you are raising are things I already agree with--things that are completely beside the point that we are taught, and are to therefore believe, that eternal life is repaid doers of good.

Why is there so much drama attached to the issue? I am just telling you what Scripture says--how that works itself out in your system, or fits, or does not fit, is not my issue. I am simply believing Scripture--and, to you, apparently, that is some kind of fault in me.

 

[Earburner]

Again and again, these issues you are raising are things I already agree with--things that are completely beside the point that we are taught, and are to therefore believe, that eternal life is repaid doers of good.

Why is there so much drama attached to the issue? I am just telling you what Scripture says--how that works itself out in your system, or fits, or does not fit, is not my issue. I am simply believing Scripture--and, to you, apparently, that is some kind of fault in me.

It's simply this, through faith in Christ, and His shed blood, I am made to be perfect in the Father's eyes. I am not under condemnation any longer. By the Gift of God's Holy Spirit within me, I KNOW that I now have eternal life.