SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[L.A.M.B.]

God nor his word EVER fails but we do!

Moving on from these talks.

 

[BarneyFife]

God nor his word EVER fails but we do!

Moving on from these talks.

Aw, hang around awhile, Sis.

.

 

[Marvelloustime]

That is another wonderful song brother @amigo de christo has found. I am saving all these onto my YouTube playlist. Praise the Lord.

 

[Marvelloustime]

I don't recognize these ppl but being southern myself, she can sing.

I’m southern too!
Praise the Lord.

 

[amigo de christo]

That is another wonderful song brother @amigo de christo has found. I am saving all these onto my YouTube playlist. Praise the Lord.

Let the glorious Lord be praised .

 

[amigo de christo]

God nor his word EVER fails but we do!

Moving on from these talks.

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[Jack]

It shows I have no dealings with the JW cause I can not understand anything Keiw is talking about makes no sense to me therefore no replies but this and further more what has it to do with the title of this thread?

JW's are brainwashed to believe they are Greek and Hebrew experts and know more than our Christian Bibles. They TWIST nearly every verse in the Bible to change the meaning, just like Satan would do. They don't even believe their own JW NWT bible that clearly implies that Jesus is God and Hell fire is "forever and ever"!

 

[Earburner]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

Let's think about the repentant thief on the cross. Without any explanation, he most assuredly WAS SAVED!!

So then, what was (singular) "the works of God" that he performed, that granted him the Gift of God's salvation?
Ans. John 6
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

ARE YOU resting in Jesus, or are you working yourself into a frazzle, of HOW to please God the Father??
Maybe Rom. 8:8-9 and 1 John 5:12-14 will clearly spell it out for you.

Don't forget the story of Martha and Mary, and how Jesus reacted about both.

 

[GracePeace]

Let's think about the repentant thief on the cross. Without any explanation, he most assuredly WAS SAVED!!

So then, what was (singular) "the works of God" that he performed, that granted him the Gift of God's salvation?
Ans. John 6
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

ARE YOU resting in Jesus, or are you working yourself into a frazzle, of HOW to please God the Father??
Maybe Rom. 8:8-9 and 1 John 5:12-14 will clearly spell it out for you.

Don't forget the story of Martha and Mary, and how Jesus reacted about both.

Same book says "if you know these things, blessed are you if you do them", and "I know the command of God is eternal life, so, I speak and do as I'm told", and "we must work the works of Him Who sent me" and "the Father works and I work" and "no greater love has anyone than to lay his life down for his friends--you are my friends if you do whatever I ask of you" (Jesus's sacrificed life is only effective for those who obey Him in their actions).

 

[Earburner]

Same book says "if you know these things, blessed are you if you do them", and "I know the command of God is eternal life, so, I speak and do as I'm told", and "we must work the works of Him Who sent me" and "the Father works and I work" and "no greater love has anyone than to lay his life down for his friends--you are my friends if you do whatever I ask of you" (Jesus's sacrificed life is only effective for those who obey Him in their actions).

Yes, His sacrificial life is ever present for all people.
2 Cor. 5
[10] For we must all appear before [come to] the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things DONE in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Herein is the truth of that which is good or bad:
John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
John 3
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Mat. 5
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Every person who is "born again" of the Holy Spirit of God, IS made to be PERFECT!!
It's not a matter of us attempting to be perfect, but rather it is the state of BEING PERFECT, because of the Spirit of Jesus dwelling within us.

So then, what "good work" of God have you done in your body??
John 6[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the [good] work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, His sacrificial life is ever present for all people.
2 Cor. 5
[10] For we must all appear before [come to] the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things DONE in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Herein is the truth of that which is good or bad:
John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom. 8
[8] So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
John 3
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Mat. 5
[48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Every person who is "born again" of the Holy Spirit of God, IS made to be PERFECT!!
It's not a matter of us attempting to be perfect, but rather it is the state of BEING PERFECT, because of the Spirit of Jesus dwelling within us.

So then, what "good work" of God have you done in your body??
John 6[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the [good] work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In a sense, I agree, but, in another sense, the fact that eternal life is (despite the fact that we do already have it (1 Jn 5)) a harvest reaped in due time only by those who do good deeds by God's Grace should also be considered, not dismissed as if it fitted neatly. We should challenge our beliefs about God's Word by inspecting them with God's Word, and asking God for insight, so that we have coherence and consistency, not confusion.

 

[Taken]

SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

Not Scripturally Confusing, but definitely man-made Confusing.

Gods GRACE is an attribute of Gods Divine offerings to manKIND, be the man worthy or not.

Works a man CAN do pleasing to God IS:
Believe IN God and the ONE God SENT.
(^ That is a works which establishes a HOPE that man will be LEAD toward receiving SALVATION of his soul).
(* ^ That comes with WARNINGS, to be cautious of evil spirits and wicked men’s influences that they not convince you to STOP believing, thus call having fallen from faith.)

Service a man CAN do pleasing to God IS:
CONFESS his true Heartful Belief, and thus Receive SALVATION of his soul, via Gods Graceful Offering AND QUICKENING of his SPIRIT via Gods Graceful Offering of His SEED, effecting a mans born again SPIRIT be MADE.

Any works any man DOES to Glorify God, By Gods indebtedness for such works, God stores up “treasures in heaven”, thereafter given that man, called REWARDS, when the Lord returns.

Men ARE SAVED….by / Because of Gods Grace.

Men CAN BE SAVED….by / Because of man Accepting Gods Offering, TO BELIEVE…(to the day his body dies)

Men ARE SAVED….by / Because of man Heartfullly CONFESSING their belief, and giving their body unto death, crucified with Christ Jesus.

Point being….
SALVATION is Offered BY Gods GRACE.

Point being…
Men ARE SAVED for their Heartful BELIEF, for their CONFESSION of BELIEF, which includes their testimony to pledge their bodily LIFE unto the Lord God Only.

RECEIPT of SALVATION of ones soul and quickening of ones spirit…….IS ONLY EFFECTED AFTER A BODILY DEATH.

Gods GRACE again?
God accepts a mans heartful pledge of his body’s LIFE, according to that mans AGREEMENT to be Crucified with Christ Jesus.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GracePeace]

Any works any man DOES to Glorify God, By Gods indebtedness for such works, God stores up “treasures in heaven”, thereafter given that man, called REWARDS, when the Lord returns.

When I read Scripture, I don't find that (though I know which verse you've been taught to shoehorn in, here); I find that men are repaid eternal life, not mere "rewards", in return for their doing good deeds.

Sir, are you asking me to just ignore all of these Scriptures, and believe in you instead?

Galatians 6
6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Romans 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6Who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Matthew 25
26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 5
29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[Taken]

When I read Scripture, I don't find that (though I know which verse you've been taught to shoehorn in, here); I find that men are repaid eternal life, not mere "rewards", in return for their doing good deeds.

Your “shoehorn” remark is based on your own misunderstanding of mans GENERAL “good deeds”. I spoke of a Specific works of man that which Glorifies God.

I didn’t say the Lord rewards a man for his good “DEEDS”.

Men “reward” men for good “DEEDS” men do for men.

The Lord rewards men “rewards” for works men do unto the Glory of God.

Matt 16.
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Sir, are you asking me to just ignore all of these Scriptures, and believe in you instead?

I asked nothing of you.
However now, I would suggest you listen to what an other actually says, rather than changing what was said.

God Bless you.
Glory to God,

Taken

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Lord rewards men “rewards” for works men do unto the Glory of God.

And there are times when the Lord tells a man to go do good unto other people and the Lord rewards that guy for being obedient.

 

[Jack]

Words of darkness Jack. Jesus is only with the JW,s.

Please explain!

 

[Taken]

And there are times when the Lord tells a man to go do good unto other people and the Lord rewards that guy for being obedient.

Sure. They are called Blessings.
By all accounts Blessings from God appear to be given to men while alive On Earth.

Glorifying God ON Earth by all accounts appear to be treasures stored in Heaven, and given to men as Rewards ON Earth, when the Lord Returns. (there are hints the rewards are a series of crowns.

Crowns:
1- 1 Cor 9:24-25
2- 2 Tim 4:8
3- Rev 2:10
4- 1 Thes 2:19
5- 1 Pet 5:4

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Some will get a frown instead of a crown

 

[Earburner]

The Pharisees asked the all time question, that men have been asking for ages:
John 6:28.....WHAT shall we DO, that WE might work [DO] the WORKS of God? (aka, how can we please God?)

Jesus Himself revealed that His Father gave Him works to do.
John 5
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 17
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

The problem with most Christians is, not many are aware of the literal six "works" of God.
Please see KJV Daniel 9:24, and find those six works.

To make matters worse, those six works were not anything that we could do, but rather only by the Messiah who was to come.
Once they were "finished" by Him, the results would be "poured [out] upon the desolate" (those who are void of God), as the FREE GIFT of Eternal life through His Holy Spirit, to all who repent and believe in Jesus. Dan. 9:27; Acts 10:45; 1 John 5:12-13.

We all, who are "born again" of the Holy Spirit of God, are indeed the recipients of the six works of God, that Jesus "finished".

Therefore, the answer to everyone's question, as that of the Pharisees, is always exactly the same: John 6[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.