Isaiah 65:17 vs. Revelation 21:1. How many NHNEs does that equal?

[PinSeeker]

When Christ comes at his 2nd Coming for the Church, he will grant resurrection and physical immortality to them.

Well, yes, they will be resurrected to eternal life, sure.

The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel will, I believe, continue on the earth after Jesus' Return. Being that they are still mortal, they will still be infected with Sin and corruption, and will still die.

Interesting. What about all those who are at that time since physically deceased?

And how might you reconcile what you say here, Randy, with what Jesus says in John 5:28-29? For convenience:

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."​

And I agree with your second sentence here, but I don't think you and I would mean the same thing in saying "they will still die." What do you mean by that? I would say it is directly relevant to what Jesus says of those who have done evil directly above in John 5:29...

However, they will be able to succeed in ways in that age that mankind has not succeeded in the present age because Satan will be bound at Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Well, I disagree here, obviously. I say Satan was bound at Jesus's first coming. Jesus proclaimed this at the very beginning of His public ministry by quoting Isaiah 61, and also, as I have said, gave the commanded His disciples (and by extension us) to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)" (Matthew 28:19-20), which had never been done prior to that.

I do agree that it will seem that Satan and those who are deceived are able to succeed in much greater ways at the close of the millennium, but because Satan will be unbound ~ loosed for a short while, although how long we cannot know, but only that it will be "cut short for the sake of the elect" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) ~ just prior to Jesus's second coming.

The knowledge of God will be more widely distributed than it is now, because less opposition to the Gospel will be tolerated.

Hmmm... so, "less opposition to the Gospel will be tolerated" by whom? By God? If so, then how do you reconcile that with what Paul says in Romans 1:24-25, that "God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity. because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie"? Nowhere in Scripture is this somehow reversed or revoked before Christ Jesus's return.

At the end of the Millennial Age, Satan is released back into the world again, to bring mortal humanity back under his spell. Those who wish to rebel against God will feel emboldened by Satan's defiant spirit, though they may not be conscious that that's what it is.

I agree with this, actually, at least to an extent ~ Satan will not have to "bring mortal humanity back under his spell." The ones who are his will already be his...

Then God will bring final judgment upon the rebels, leading to widespread destruction and the need for a 2nd resurrection among those who chose not to rebel. This is my own Premill way of conceiving of it.

Hm, well, again, Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." So all will be resurrected together, both those resurrected to life and those resurrected to judgment; this is the second resurrection, and it is general, rather than specific only to the non-rebellious, and, when we get to the scene of the final Judgment depicted starting in Revelation 20:11 has at that point occurred just prior.

I still maintain that one of the main problems in this whole matter is the erroneous assumption that the events of Revelation 20:1-6 follow after, chronologically speaking, the events described in Revelation 19:11-21, and this is much like what I said about Zechariah 14 above. It seems to me, too, that, even for those who still would not agree with what I have said, they would still have to acknowledge that it makes sense, and even that it makes a lot of sense.

I have no interest in a contentious dialogue. My only wish is to answer questions that have been raised for the benefit of those who wish to know how I would answer them.

Excellent. Same here.

Grace and peace to you, Randy. And all.

 

[Davidpt]

Really? So, who are these billions of wicked who follow Satan at the end after 1000 years of Jesus reigning in righteousness, justice and glory? What are they doing for 1000 years - feigning allegiance to Christ?

Here's an idea, since you apparently must think humans are superior in intelliegence to that of satan and his angels. What you are arguing here, let's see you use those same arguments to convince the rest of us that it was the biggest sham since the beginning of time if satan and the angels that followed him, after they having been literally in God's presence, thus can't deny that He exists, that they would then actually rebel. Let's see you use these same arguments to convince us that those things never happened, as if it is too preposterous to take serious, that satan and his angels could rebel like that when they knew God clearly existed and clearly knew He was their creator. That no one in their right mind after having been in God's presence could then rebel against Him. Especially humans, since they are apparently superior in intelligence to that of satan and his angels.

IOW, the way I'm looking at, not the way you are looking at it. If satan and his angels can do something like that, humans certainly can do that as well. They too can be in God's presence, thus can't deny He exists, and just like satan and his angels did a long time ago, they too can rebel, regardless.

Unless you can convince us that it is totally preposterous that satan and his angels could rebel against God after having been in God's presence, do some of us a favor in the meantime, quit trying to convince us that humans can't do the same thing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you meaning they can die during the millennium, or are you meaning Revelation 20:9 only? In the event it is the former, why do a lot of Premils think any mortals have to die during the millennium? Wasn't Adam a mortal? Did he not almost live an entire thousand years? When you think about it, not one single mortal person since the beginning of time has ever lived an entire thousand years. Why then would that still be true after the millennium is expired, that no mortal managed to live that entire thousand years, either?

Mortality does not indicate when a person will die--only that they can die. It means the spiritual nature within the body is still compromised, meaning that the body must die according to God's word.

I do think people will die at younger ages during the Millennium if they are irresponsible and lead sinful lives. Those who lead more righteous lives will live longer, on average. It will be just like today except that Satan will not be present in the world, manipulating the masses to involve themselves in mass evils. So there will be less judgments inflicted upon mankind during that time, in my opinion.

But not much is said about this era because it is strictly a curiosity with little usefulness to us where we are today. The purpose appears to be to provide a millennium of relative "rest" for mankind, a 7th period of a thousand years of human history. It will enable the fulfillment of promises God made to Abraham regarding Israel's national salvation. And God will also in that time period be able to solidify Christianity among the nations which up to now appears to be failing.

The only death I see in Revelation 20 pertaining to mortals is in verse 9 when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. But that is after the thousand years not during it. I don't see anything in the text giving me the impression God is also devouring mortals during the millennium.

Yes, in this passage not much detail is given for the thousand years. It is described, on behalf of glorified Christians, that they will "rule" at this time. The nations are viewed as being subject to this rule, indirectly. I get most of my own detail, personally, for this period of time from OT prophecies of Israel's restoration. Although I think it will include NT realities among the nations, OT prophecy largely focused on Israel because at that time only Israel represented God's People.

Keeping in mind, during the millennium no one is any longer deceived. Everyone knows who God is and knows that He exists. No one can deny it, the fact Jesus, meaning God, will be dwelling among them on the earth. After all, the millennium can't even begin until He returns to the earth first. Scripture doesn't have Him returning to the earth then going back to heaven, like views, such as Pretrib, such as SDA, have Him doing. When He sits upon His throne of glory, He does that upon the earth not in heaven.

I personally think Jesus and the glorified Church do go back to heaven after coming to the earth at the 2nd Coming. I think that because the New Jerusalem is viewed as coming down from heaven *after* the Millennium. To come down from heaven, it must be in heaven during the Millennium.

Coming to earth is descriptive of the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth, and not necessarily descriptive of the glorified Church remaining on the earth. Once the rule of the glorified Church is established on earth I see little need for it to physically remain on earth, since it can then rule through its proxies on a still-mortal earth.

When the thousand years expire, the mortals that were no longer deceived during the millennium, they are once again deceived, this time apparently thinking they can overthrow Christ and His saints that have been ruling over them. Of course though, you end up with mortals taking on immortals, as if the former even remotely have a chance of succeeding. Where Amils then see that idea as preposterous, that mortals would be battling immortals. Yet, that is exactly what we see in Revelation 19 though, mortals taking on immortals. Is it not?

I see the renewed pagan movement taking on not "immortals" but a still-mortal Jerusalem on earth. Israel has been reconstituted as one of the main nations belonging to Abraham's spiritual inheritance. This is before the Heavenly Jerusalem descends from heaven at the end of the battle.

Unless one wants to argue that Christ and His army are not immortals, and that the kings of the earth, and their armies are not mortals. Therefore, if Amils find it utterly preposterous that mortals would be taking on immortals after the millennium per Premil, they should find it equally preposterous in Revelation 19 since that is what that account is depicting, mortals battling immortals.

Good point. I think the battle between pagans and Christianity to be depicted symbolically, with the reality being that pagans are trying to destroy God's People and Christ's Work on the earth. Battles involving pagan incursions into territories that protect Christians can be described as a "spiritual battle." I don't think the Bible is describing the battle in strictly military strategies and intel.

 

[WPM]

Apparently, Zechariah 14:16-19 is not in your Bible. Or that you perhaps don't think Zechariah 14 is holy writ as well. Or that you perhaps can explain what Zechariah 14:16-19 is pertaining to if not the thousand years following the 2nd coming. IOW, pertaining to the here and now, what can possibly explain those verses since those verses can't even come to pass until verse 12 has come to pass first.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

As if this has already been fulfilled.



Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee .


As if what I have underlined has already been fulfilled. As if Zechariah 14:16-19 can be meaning before those events are fulfilled rather than after.

Then compare what I have underlined in verse 5 with that of the following in Jude. Are you going to argue what I submitted per Jude that this has already been fulfilled as well? Clearly, undeniably, it is involving the same events that I have underlined in verse 5 above. Zechariah is then simply parroting something Enoch prophesied.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

No. You explain away a multitude of clear and explicit passages by your misunderstanding of Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 . You seem to be obsessed with these two passages. You view the rest of Scripture through the lens of your opinion of these. That may explain why you cannot grasp the Amil position.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no likeness.

 

[rwb]

Well, yes, they will be resurrected to eternal life, sure.

Although I don't think you would disagree, I would say at the second coming of Christ those who already have eternal/everlasting life through Christ's Spirit within us, shall be physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible.

 

[Davidpt]

Zechariah 14:16-19... So, I've posted twice now, in short order, too, really, an explanation of this passage in relation to Revelation 20. And WPM gave it a "Like," which would presumably mean he (or she?) is in agreement with it. But it seems to be falling on deaf ears for some reason or another, because every reply since has been, in effect, "no Amil here has addressed this passage." Here it is yet again:

Zechariah 14:16-18 is in the midst of one of these kingdom prophecies which can have more than one application. Like certain parts of Revelation, it is about those who attack the Church and God’s judgment on such people, but it is also about the final judgment and salvation. Besides, it is in apocalyptic language, which is cryptic and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written. I say that “on that day” in Zechariah 14:20-21 is a reference to end times and to the final kingdom of God. There is little doubt that this is an apocalyptic description of heaven. As for Zechariah 14:16-18, this, like in most of Revelation, is a prophecy about the current “Church age.” It appears to be a reference to people who would oppose the Church. The use of the Feast of Tabernacle is intended for us to think of being in a relationship with God. Verse 18 seems to be a statement that those who do not repent and become part of the Church will be judged. So, although Zechariah 14:20-21 seems to be about heaven, Zechariah 14:16-19 is about the time between when the Church was established and when Jesus will come back. Which we are in the midst of now. But again, there are allusions and implications here to Christ's return and the final Judgment.

Grace and peace to all.

Nothing you submitted here convinces me that you might be correct about these things. Instead of me explaining why yet again, just go to post #119 to see some reasons why I'm not convinced you might be correct here.

 

[rwb]

Mortality does not indicate when a person will die--only that they can die. It means the spiritual nature within the body is still compromised, meaning that the body must die according to God's word.

Mortality indicates we shall physically die! It seems one of the biggest stumbling blocks for Premillennialists is lacking understanding of when/how all who have been born again of the Spirit already HAVE eternal/everlasting life through Christ's Spirit within us. When the Spirit of Christ is within man's spirit, though we may still choose to sin, we are spiritually alive forever, even though our body of flesh shall grow sick, old and die. This was ordained from the beginning when man sinned against God's command, and death through sin entered creation.

One truth needs to be repeated again and again for some of you, there shall be nothing impure, no mortal being, no sin, death or evil in any way shall co-exist with immortal & incorruptible beings after man has been physically resurrected immortal & incorruptible in the age to come.

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3-4 (KJV) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[WPM]

Apparently, Zechariah 14:16-19 is not in your Bible. Or that you perhaps don't think Zechariah 14 is holy writ as well. Or that you perhaps can explain what Zechariah 14:16-19 is pertaining to if not the thousand years following the 2nd coming. IOW, pertaining to the here and now, what can possibly explain those verses since those verses can't even come to pass until verse 12 has come to pass first.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

As if this has already been fulfilled.



Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee .


As if what I have underlined has already been fulfilled. As if Zechariah 14:16-19 can be meaning before those events are fulfilled rather than after.

Then compare what I have underlined in verse 5 with that of the following in Jude. Are you going to argue what I submitted per Jude that this has already been fulfilled as well? Clearly, undeniably, it is involving the same events that I have underlined in verse 5 above. Zechariah is then simply parroting something Enoch prophesied.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Your 2 proof texts, and the comments you apply to these in your posts, totally contradict each other. This is common in Premil. Zechariah 14 doesn't even correlate or support any on the main tenants of Revelation 20. In one post you are falsely depicting a perfect environment in your supposed future millennium where there is no sin, deception, war or death, something that Revelation nowhere teaches. In the next breath you are showing death, destruction, rebellion and chaos abounding in your future millennium. This is why Premil should be rejected. Your proof texts and your opinions are all over the place. Meanwhile, you duck around all the many climactic passages in Scripture that forbid your teaching.!!!

The reality is: you seem to be in love with a doctrine rather than the repeated teaching of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Are you meaning they can die during the millennium, or are you meaning Revelation 20:9 only? In the event it is the former, why do a lot of Premils think any mortals have to die during the millennium? Wasn't Adam a mortal? Did he not almost live an entire thousand years? When you think about it, not one single mortal person since the beginning of time has ever lived an entire thousand years. Why then would that still be true after the millennium is expired, that no mortal managed to live that entire thousand years, either?

The only death I see in Revelation 20 pertaining to mortals is in verse 9 when they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven. But that is after the thousand years not during it. I don't see anything in the text giving me the impression God is also devouring mortals during the millennium.

Keeping in mind, during the millennium no one is any longer deceived. Everyone knows who God is and knows that He exists. No one can deny it, the fact Jesus, meaning God, will be dwelling among them on the earth. After all, the millennium can't even begin until He returns to the earth first. Scripture doesn't have Him returning to the earth then going back to heaven, like views, such as Pretrib, such as SDA, have Him doing. When He sits upon His throne of glory, He does that upon the earth not in heaven.

When the thousand years expire, the mortals that were no longer deceived during the millennium, they are once again deceived, this time apparently thinking they can overthrow Christ and His saints that have been ruling over them. Of course though, you end up with mortals taking on immortals, as if the former even remotely have a chance of succeeding. Where Amils then see that idea as preposterous, that mortals would be battling immortals. Yet, that is exactly what we see in Revelation 19 though, mortals taking on immortals. Is it not?

Unless one wants to argue that Christ and His army are not immortals, and that the kings of the earth, and their armies are not mortals. Therefore, if Amils find it utterly preposterous that mortals would be taking on immortals after the millennium per Premil, they should find it equally preposterous in Revelation 19 since that is what that account is depicting, mortals battling immortals.

How can billions of ungodly religious phonies (who stubbornly and relentlessly feign allegiance to Christ during your millennium) not sin and die for 1000 years and then at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? Where does it teach this? Sadly, you make it up as you go. You then present it as fact to the rest of us. But, the reality is, this is an invention in your own head. You or no Premil is able to show us this in Revelation 20.

Do you even understand what sin is and how it functions? Or does your allegiance to Premil force you to deny biblical fundamentals?

 

[rwb]

Nothing you submitted here convinces me that you might be correct about these things. Instead of me explaining why yet again, just go to post #119 to see some reasons why I'm not convinced you might be correct here.

That's because you are not looking to be convinced your Premillennial doctrine is not biblical! You come to the forums only to prove your preconceived doctrine, not to have understanding of Biblical truths. That's why you are constantly avoiding and running from anything or anyone that does not agree with your doctrine of deception. Also, why you continue to ask questions to lead away from anything that shows why your doctrine is not truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is a lot of this does not add up. So, who is this 3rd group that you are too wicked to be caught up and too righteous to be destroyed? Where does it teach that there is a group from "The rest of the world, who had been alienated from the Gospel" that "continue on the earth after Jesus' Return"?

• Romans 8:19-23 tells us that the whole of creation (not just ourselves,) is yearning for deliverance from the bondage of corruption – all the result of the Fall. This is shown here to happen on the day we are glorified.
• Luke 20:27-36 tells us that only those who are worthy inherit the age to come at the Lord’s return.
• 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 tells us that in order to be qualified to populate the new earth we need to be suitably changed. Only glorified believers can inherit the glorified earth.

It's a legitimate question so I admit this is speculative. Future Prophecy has limited interest to us where we are today. I think it is given us as a vague hope for God's purposes being fulfilled on earth. It is a certain hope, but lacks details that would not regardless be of anything more than a curiosity to us.

Rom 8 indicates the world is in a current state of unhappiness and unfulfillment. All suffering and death indicates this. And in a sense all men know some of the truths of the Gospel, since God's word is everywhere speaking to the conscience of every man.

However, not all people hear the Gospel. And even if they hear a semblance of the Gospel, the messengers of that Gospel are not always a good source of that information.

And so, the message gets obscured, and people reject a message that they do not fully understand, or they simply remain ignorant of what the Gospel really means. They are left only with their conscience, and not with much sense of the presence of Jesus.

Yes, the glorified Church is changed and prepared to dwell on earth forever. I just don't think this will actually take place on earth until the mortal world is finished being judged by God. The world will not yet be prepared for the dwelling of a glorified Church until the message of the Gospel has been fully transmitted across the earth, which will take place during the Millennium, I believe.

Again, I'm not arguing--just speculating based on the best I can make out of the information I've been given in the Scriptures.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What about all those who are at that time since physically deceased?

All I know is that the righteous Church will be glorified at Christ's 2nd Coming. That leaves a lot of dead people, ignorant and wicked, who will not enter into the rule of Christ's Kingdom at that time. Those who were ignorant may or may not be raised up at the "1st Resurrection."

I believe that there will be a "2nd Resurrection" at the end of the Millennium. All the people who had rejected God's word in history will be raised up at that time, along with all of the Christians who lived during the Millennial era. It will simply be another thousand years of waiting for spirits who have not yet received their eternal bodies. Some will be resurrected to immortality and some will be resurrected to rejection by God.

And how might you reconcile what you say here, Randy, with what Jesus says in John 5:28-29? For convenience:

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."​

This is for me a simple prediction of a time coming when people will have to face a resurrection to an eternal state of existence. Some will enjoy eternal fellowship with God, and some will not.

And I agree with your second sentence here, but I don't think you and I would mean the same thing in saying "they will still die." What do you mean by that? I would say it is directly relevant to what Jesus says of those who have done evil directly above in John 5:29...

Mortality indicates people live in bodies that are susceptible to suffering and death.

Well, I disagree here, obviously. I say Satan was bound at Jesus's first coming. Jesus proclaimed this at the very beginning of His public ministry by quoting Isaiah 61, and also, as I have said, gave the commanded His disciples (and by extension us) to "(g)o therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (He has) commanded (us)" (Matthew 28:19-20), which had never been done prior to that.

Yes, most of Church history has been Amill, and has viewed it this way. I was raised up to believe this, but current Premill thought has been able to win me over. I've been Premill now for many, many years!

I do agree that it will seem that Satan and those who are deceived are able to succeed in much greater ways at the close of the millennium, but because Satan will be unbound ~ loosed for a short while, although how long we cannot know, but only that it will be "cut short for the sake of the elect" (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20) ~ just prior to Jesus's second coming.

I'm not sure Satan is depicted as rebelling towards the "close" of the Millennium, or *after* the Millennium?

Hmmm... so, "less opposition to the Gospel will be tolerated" by whom? By God?

Yes, God binds Satan, indicating He has not tolerated Satan's influence during the Millennial era.

If so, then how do you reconcile that with what Paul says in Romans 1:24-25, that "God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity. because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie"? Nowhere in Scripture is this somehow reversed or revoked before Christ Jesus's return.

I believe people will still be mortals and will still be infected with sin during the Millennium.

I still maintain that one of the main problems in this whole matter is the erroneous assumption that the events of Revelation 20:1-6 follow after, chronologically speaking, the events described in Revelation 19:11-21, and this is much like what I said about Zechariah 14 above. It seems to me, too, that, even for those who still would not agree with what I have said, they would still have to acknowledge that it makes sense, and even that it makes a lot of sense.

I've run out of time, but yes--this is the big question.

 

[WPM]

It's a legitimate question so I admit this is speculative. Future Prophecy has limited interest to us where we are today. I think it is given us as a vague hope for God's purposes being fulfilled on earth. It is a certain hope, but lacks details that would not regardless be of anything more than a curiosity to us.

Rom 8 indicates the world is in a current state of unhappiness and unfulfillment. All suffering and death indicates this. And in a sense all men know some of the truths of the Gospel, since God's word is everywhere speaking to the conscience of every man.

However, not all people hear the Gospel. And even if they hear a semblance of the Gospel, the messengers of that Gospel are not always a good source of that information.

And so, the message gets obscured, and people reject a message that they do not fully understand, or they simply remain ignorant of what the Gospel really means. They are left only with their conscience, and not with much sense of the presence of Jesus.

Yes, the glorified Church is changed and prepared to dwell on earth forever. I just don't think this will actually take place on earth until the mortal world is finished being judged by God. The world will not yet be prepared for the dwelling of a glorified Church until the message of the Gospel has been fully transmitted across the earth, which will take place during the Millennium, I believe.

Again, I'm not arguing--just speculating based on the best I can make out of the information I've been given in the Scriptures.

You are not addressing the Scriptures/arguments I presented. I have showed you clear Scripture which shows that the bondage of corruption is banished from creation when Jesus comes. You have not acknowledged that. This forbids the Premil scenario.

Are you suggesting that these billions of religious phonies who overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea are those who have "not heard the Gospel" in this current day?

God's Word refutes that! The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

 

[WPM]

Here's an idea, since you apparently must think humans are superior in intelliegence to that of satan and his angels. What you are arguing here, let's see you use those same arguments to convince the rest of us that it was the biggest sham since the beginning of time if satan and the angels that followed him, after they having been literally in God's presence, thus can't deny that He exists, that they would then actually rebel. Let's see you use these same arguments to convince us that those things never happened, as if it is too preposterous to take serious, that satan and his angels could rebel like that when they knew God clearly existed and clearly knew He was their creator. That no one in their right mind after having been in God's presence could then rebel against Him. Especially humans, since they are apparently superior in intelligence to that of satan and his angels.

IOW, the way I'm looking at, not the way you are looking at it. If satan and his angels can do something like that, humans certainly can do that as well. They too can be in God's presence, thus can't deny He exists, and just like satan and his angels did a long time ago, they too can rebel, regardless.

Unless you can convince us that it is totally preposterous that satan and his angels could rebel against God after having been in God's presence, do some of us a favor in the meantime, quit trying to convince us that humans can't do the same thing.

You are totally missing the point! How can you in all seriousness argue that billions of ungodly religious phonies who have abode in the presence of the glorified Christ and the glorified saints, and have showed themselves to be the most deluded religious actors in history, stubbornly and relentlessly feigning allegiance to Christ throughout your supposed future millennium, do not possibly sin and die for 1000 years and yet at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? This is deception on a scale never seen before in history!

 

[PinSeeker]

Nothing you submitted here convinces me that you might be correct about these things.

Right; not surprising.

Instead of me explaining why yet again, just go to post #119 to see some reasons why I'm not convinced you might be correct here.

Because, David, that's a response to Randy, and you and he are presumably at least somewhat like-minded. I would prefer a response to what I posted. But, if you choose not to do that, that's fine with me; suit yourself. Just say so, one way or the other, as that would be the polite thing to do. :) Yeah ghosting... not cool. But again, suit yourself.

Grace and and peace to you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are not addressing the Scriptures/arguments I presented. I have showed you clear Scripture which shows that the bondage of corruption is banished from creation when Jesus comes. You have not acknowledged that. This forbids the Premil scenario.

This is how I'm applying my answers to the questions you're asking. The "bondage to corruption" is removed from the Church when it is glorified at Christ's 2nd Coming.

The Millennial Earth does not suffer *as much* violence as it does in the present age because Satan is bound, and nations are not at war.

The New Earth is the final liberation of earth from corruption when people are compartmentalized, depending on their judgment. Then wicked deeds will no longer be tolerated, and Nature will be at final peace.

Since there is renewed violence after the Millennium, the New Earth has not yet arrived, in my thinking. The New Earth *follows* the Millennial Age, when things are at relative peace before the final conflict.

Are you suggesting that these billions of religious phonies who overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea are those who have "not heard the Gospel" in this current day?

People are not born "religious phonies." They make choices and become "religious phones" when they make the choice to adopt a facade of religion.

In the Millennium people can choose to become Nominal Christians. When Satan is released many Nominal Christians will choose to follow Satan, since his powerful delusions will encourage them to pursue complete rebellion against God and true religion.

God's Word refutes that! The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The "Wicked" being spoken of here refer to the Antichristian forces that oppose the coming of Christ with his Kingdom. It is depicted in Dan 7. That's where the term "Antichrist" comes from. The "Little Horn" rises up to oppose the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to set up his Kingdom on earth.

All forces opposing the coming of Christ's Kingdom will be destroyed. This is not an all-encompassing concept, indicating nobody will ever do wickedness again. Obviously, if people survive nuclear wars and Armageddon itself, they will be able to return to wickedness at some point.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

The earth repopulated after Noah's Flood. We are told the 2nd Coming will be like the Flood. After the forces opposing Christ's Coming are completely destroyed, the world that remains will be able to continue choosing where they want to be, with God or without God. And ultimately, the forces opposing God will rise again.

 

[WPM]

This is how I'm applying my answers to the questions you're asking. The "bondage to corruption" is removed from the Church when it is glorified at Christ's 2nd Coming.

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Premils have no answer to the fact that Scripture shows the regeneration of the earth, heavens and elements to occur at Christ's return, not after some imaginary future millennial kingdom blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, corruption and crime, war and terror of the Premil scenario, including the pointless slaughter of countless innocent animals during that period.

The fact is: sin, death, disease, Satan, the wicked, wickedness and decay corrupt this current age, but are banished from the age to come at the end with the regeneration of the whole cosmos.

Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

In the Premil paradigm, the scoffers and scoffing survive the coming of the Lord, largely uncensored. These rebels remain able to continue their irrational sneer “since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” The reason being, many Premil propel the fiery judgment depicted in this reading forward 1,000+ years. But the actual thing Peter is warning them about in this passage is the impending wide-ranging destruction of the old heavens, elements, earth, and works upon the earth and the wholesale replacement of them with a brand-new heavens and a new earth. He is warning them that this will catch them unexpectedly. It will involve the complete destruction of the old arrangement, and the complete replacement with a new arrangement.

The Millennial Earth does not suffer *as much* violence as it does in the present age because Satan is bound, and nations are not at war.

You make statement after statement like this in your posts without any scriptural support. That is because it is not derived from the Book. It is what you have thought up or been taught.

The New Earth is the final liberation of earth from corruption when people are compartmentalized, depending on their judgment. Then wicked deeds will no longer be tolerated, and Nature will be at final peace.

Since there is renewed violence after the Millennium, the New Earth has not yet arrived, in my thinking. The New Earth *follows* the Millennial Age, when things are at relative peace before the final conflict.

Again, where does it mention "relative peace" during "the Millennial Age"?

People are not born "religious phonies." They make choices and become "religious phones" when they make the choice to adopt a facade of religion.

In the Millennium people can choose to become Nominal Christians. When Satan is released many Nominal Christians will choose to follow Satan, since his powerful delusions will encourage them to pursue complete rebellion against God and true religion.

You are ducking around the issue once again! How can you remotely argue that billions of ungodly religious phonies who have abode in the presence of the glorified Christ and the glorified saints, and have showed themselves to be the most deluded religious actors in history, stubbornly and relentlessly feigning allegiance to Christ throughout your supposed future millennium, do not possibly sin and die for 1000 years and yet at the first sight of their master Satan rise up in rebellion against Jesus and the Church? This is deception on a scale never seen before in history!

The "Wicked" being spoken of here refer to the Antichristian forces that oppose the coming of Christ with his Kingdom. It is depicted in Dan 7. That's where the term "Antichrist" comes from. The "Little Horn" rises up to oppose the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to set up his Kingdom on earth.

All forces opposing the coming of Christ's Kingdom will be destroyed. This is not an all-encompassing concept, indicating nobody will ever do wickedness again. Obviously, if people survive nuclear wars and Armageddon itself, they will be able to return to wickedness at some point.

The earth repopulated after Noah's Flood. We are told the 2nd Coming will be like the Flood. After the forces opposing Christ's Coming are completely destroyed, the world that remains will be able to continue choosing where they want to be, with God or without God. And ultimately, the forces opposing God will rise again.

The text itself exposes your reasoning. BTW, which unregenerate are excluded from the description of "them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8)?

 

[PinSeeker]

All I know is that the righteous Church will be glorified at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Sure. Absolutely.

That leaves a lot of dead people, ignorant and wicked, who will not enter into the rule of Christ's Kingdom at that time.

Ah, well, that seems to indicate a misunderstanding of what it means to be dead. In the Bible, Randy, being dead is a state of being. And the dead ~ you're right ~ will not enter into Christ's Kingdom... the New Heaven and New Earth. They will not be co-heirs with Christ as we will. They will depart, obediently, as a result of the final Judgment as given by Christ Himself, as Christ Himself depicts very vividly in Matthew 25:41-46. They "go away into eternal punishment" (v.46), and this is corresponding intensely with "those who," as Christ says in John 5:28-29, "have done evil," having been resurrected along with "those who have done good," but "to the resurrection of judgment" rather than "to the resurrection of life." The evil depart, go away, into eternal punishment, away from the New Heaven and New Earth, and this is the second death, to which those resurrected to life are not subjected.

I believe that there will be a "2nd Resurrection" at the end of the Millennium.

Well, good, I agree, but see directly above. :)

All the people who had rejected God's word in history will be raised up at that time, along with all of the Christians who lived during the Millennial era.

I agree. And all people from all time, including before the millennium. Everyone will be resurrected, but to what is the question. See above.

It will simply be another thousand years of waiting for spirits who have not yet received their eternal bodies.

Disagree. See above. Everyone will be resurrected, and everyone will be reunited with their physical bodies, and after the final Judgment will either enter into the New Heaven and New Earth or... <shudder>... depart obediently into eternal punishment, away from the New Heaven and New Earth (which sounds very mild, but...). <shudder>.

Some will be resurrected to immortality and some will be resurrected to rejection by God.

Agree.

This is for me a simple prediction of a time coming when people will have to face a resurrection to an eternal state of existence. Some will enjoy eternal fellowship with God, and some will not.

Absolutely. But I would submit to you, Randy, that those who "will not" will also have an eternal state of existence ~ annihilationism is a heresy that I hope you have not bought into ~ and that eternal state of existence will be ~ rather than in fellowship with God, in Christ ~ under His final judgment, which again, might sound mild, but... <shudder>.

Mortality indicates people live in bodies that are susceptible to suffering and death.

In this life, yes, of course. So yes, you and I do not mean the same thing regarding the eternal state in saying "they will still die." They will die, yes; the unrepentant, those not in Christ, will suffer the second death. But that is certainly not a cessation of existence.

Yes, most of Church history has been Amill, and has viewed it this way. I was raised up to believe this, but current Premill thought has been able to win me over. I've been Premill now for many, many years!

Hmmm. Well, certainly, you are your own person. I'm... not really trying to "win you over."

I'm not sure Satan is depicted as rebelling towards the "close" of the Millennium, or *after* the Millennium?

Well, he's depicted as being loosed, and I would just say "at the close of the millennium," because the millennium is the period in which God brings all His elect into His Israel. So, once God has completed bringing all the Gentile elect in and the Jewish elect in... once all Israel is saved... this is what will bring the millennium to a close, when it will have ended. God appoints all these times. Then Satan will be loosed, and the remaining time between that and the return of Christ Jesus is what will be cut short for the sake of the elect.

Yes, God binds Satan, indicating He has not tolerated Satan's influence during the Millennial era.

Ah, his "influence..." Well, we've talked about that... :) I would just say that opposition to the Gospel is what it is. The opposition will not be diminished or increased, really, but the conflict certainly will be ramped up ~ exponentially ~ when Satan is loosed. And, on His return, Christ Jesus will end it. I say again that Satan has been bound since the time of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit; Satan is presently unable to prevent the spread of the Gospel, which, before Christ came, he was able to do ~ he was able to prevent the spread of the Gospel outside the commonwealth of Israel... but only because God allowed him to do that, because it suited God's redemptive purposes, which were limited at that time ~ again, by God Himself ~ to the commonwealth of Israel (and the few foreigners who had come in, which at that time foreshadowed the bringing in of the Gentiles).

I believe people will still be mortals and will still be infected with sin during the Millennium.

We are, yes. :)

I've run out of time, but yes--this is the big question.

Well one of them, I guess. But if the pre-millennialist (and the post-millennialist actually) comes to understand that the events of Revelation 20:1-6 do not follow, chronologically, the events of Revelation 19:11-21 ~ and they do not ~ then the pre-millennialist has to... well, has to reevaluate a lot of things. :) But I say that would be a great thing. :) If you want to focus on this one thing (and its ramifications), I think that would be very worthwhile. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Right; not surprising.


Because, David, that's a response to Randy, and you and he are presumably at least somewhat like-minded. I would prefer a response to what I posted. But, if you choose not to do that, that's fine with me; suit yourself. Just say so, one way or the other, as that would be the polite thing to do. :) Yeah ghosting... not cool. But again, suit yourself.

Grace and and peace to you.

Unless you haven't noticed, this is a public forum. Which means no post is a private post between just two people. If you want to make it private between you and whomever you might be addressing, that's what PMs are for. All I was doing was commenting that nothing you submitted in that post would lead me to conclude you might be right about these things, the fact you posted that on a public forum where everyone including me could see what you said. I wasn't speaking for Randy as well. I was only speaking for myself and that I then mentioned post #119 which gives reasons as to why, and that it would be easier to look at that post instead of me yet again explaining why.

 

[APAK]

I don't know if you are correct or not, but one thing I do not think, is this That it is meaning in the literal sense. Ezekiel 47 and the following alone already proves a literal sea is not meant in Revelation 21:1..

Ezekiel 47:7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea , the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Make no mistake about it, the era of time these verses above are involving, are the same era of time Revelation 21-22 are involving. We can know that by comparing a few things.


These waters issue out toward the east country(Ezekiel 47:8)---compare with---And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb(Revelation 22:1)

And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine(Ezekiel 47:12)---compare with---In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations(Revelation 22:2)

Obviously, literal seas still exist during the NHNE, otherwise God through Ezekiel lied to us in these verses above in Ezekiel 47.

-------------------------
The OT account says this---it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary

The NT account says this----And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb---which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month
------------------------

-----------------------------------
The OT account says this----and the leaf thereof for medicine

The NT account says this----and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations
-----------------------------------------------
----------------------------
The OT account says this----And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed

The NT account says this----In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life
----------------------------

While Ezekiel 47:8 says this----These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea , the waters shall be healed.


Of course the waters would need to be healed post the trumpet and vial judgments involving bodies of water. That's just common sense. Of course though, some interpreters think literal bodies of water are not meant in the book of Revelation pertaining to judgments involving bodies of water to begin with. Therefore, it's going to make zero sense to them that post these trumpet and vial judgments that there is then a need to heal these bodies of water.

There is no literal sea/river sourced from Ezekiel 47 and therefore you proof is really no proof at all. The symbolic language used by Ezekiel uncannily mirrors in many ways John's view as both were caught up by the Spirit of God. Care to review it? And what is your real scriptural basis for a literal sea in Ezekiel anyway? Is there a agenda afoot to force it to be true? This can be a dangerous route to tread on.

Let me give you but one reason for my response.

This river of the Spirit, not a literal river, is in the New Jerusalem and is spoken of in Ezekiel 47:12 and in Rev 22:2. They are the same in intent and meaning.

The identification of the river in Ezekiel's vision with the river in the New Jerusalem is corroborated by Ezek 47:7, 12 which says that there were trees on both banks of the river. That parallels Rev 22:2 which similarly says that the tree of life was "on either side of the river." In both cases the trees are said to bear fruit (Ezek 47:12; Rev 22:2). Further, in both cases the leaves of the trees are "for healing" (Ezek 47:12; Rev 22:2).

This is no coincidence that John and Ezekiel align in thought and meaning, and there is more.