1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Seeing as my Christian husband divorced me without cause, and married the wife of his best friend, I studied what God had to say about divorce in Deuteronomy. He is still the last man I kissed back in 2001.
Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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That says to me that you are a victim of the church teaching.
And I'm sure you know others. I sure do.
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Actually, it is. Your claim that God approves something He didn't ordain is dangerous. God had to make certain provisions because of men's fallen state and their descent into deeper and deeper sin, away from His original perfect design. (I suppose you believe that since the Bible mentions incest between Lot and his daughters that God ordains incest.)
I have no qualms with Jesus and the scriptures. I know how to take all scripture and rightly divide it ....none of it contradicts itself.
I already knew you only believe what you want to believe, as you do not hold to the conviction that all scripture is God's Word.
You make claims that God has ordained a man's right to sexual perversions. I disagree.
I believe this topic is exhausted.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
They think because we are not under the "Law" that means the whole Law, when it was only the Covenant that we are not under, the Ten Commandments. Ex. 34:28. But it is still unlawful to marry your sibling.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I left it up to God and I know who my Husband is now. Isa. 54:5 "
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name
What church teaching.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Hi there, an interesting topic, but if not discussed thoroughly, can lead to destruction.
Let's say for instant, fornication is where a single male or female commits sexual intercourse outside the covenant of marriage.
What's the difference between them, here again a married male or female too commit sexual intercourse outside the covenant of marriage?
i believe Jesus is clear between both which sounds the same, whether it is fornication or adultery. Where, fornication is one who is single, commits sexual intercourse outside of marriage, unfaithful to GOD and one's parents. While, adultery is one who is married, commits sexual intercourse outside of marriage, unfaithful to GOD and one's spouse.
For example, the Samaritan woman was with men who were not her husbands, yet Jesus referred to them as her husbands. When, Rebecca was introduced to Isaac, Isaac immediately took her into his tent, as consummated in marriage tradition of the day.
As according to Genesis, GOD bring a male and a female together and they become consummate in marriage. They are husband and wife, no longer individual persons, but one in HIS sight. The man takes the role of being the head and the wife the role of the body.
But, the case Jesus brought up in Matthew 19:8&9 then was, Jewish men without a cause divorce their wives as they like. Mainly, just in order to marry another probably younger or so forth, where Jesus calls them as, 'heartless men'.
Therefore, Jesus made it clear to them, may it be on the basis of one's wife commits sexual immorality with another man, that they are permitted to divorce her. Nevertheless, if the husband is able to forgive and accept her back, that would be even better.
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You are putting words in my mouth, (bearing false witness?)
I did NOT claim that God approves of adultery. (fornication, polygamy, concubines, prostitution, or sex slaves)
And I certainly don't claim that God ordains divorce. Do you? "What God has put together..."
God is in the "put together' business, not the "put asunder" business.
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The church teaching that permits divorce for sexual immorality.
And claims Jesus approved it. The point of this topic.
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Thanks for weighing in on this.
We need to consider Jesus' words carefully. And consider the cultural and legal aspects.
Which are not obvious in the key scripture.
1) This is addressing men putting away (divorcing) their wives. (not men and women)
2) There is no provision anywhere for a woman to divorce her husband.
3) For men, the consequence of adultery was death. (cultural and legal aspect)
4) This scripture discusses a man divorcing his wife for sex before marriage. (fornication)
5) Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18 (cultural and legal aspect)
6) It goes on to discuss adultery caused by remarriage,
7) It ends with the disciples concluding that it is better NOT to marry at all.
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
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And yet, that is EXACTLY what Jesus did say. He used the word porneia. And that word has a very broad meaning. There is not just one meaning to that word. I take what He said literally. He said what He said.
You're the one making the argument for it ...this wasn't your first thread of this topic and claim.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
In case y'all have forgotten, you're supposed to STONE the adulterous spouse, not divorce them. (Leviticus 20:10). Then they're dead, and the offended spouse is free to remarry.
Since none of us are qualified to cast the first stone, divorce is just a humane way to have your spouse declared dead.
Since none of us are qualified to cast the first stone, divorce is just a humane way to have your spouse declared dead.
No. That is NOT what he said at all.
It is YOU that perverts what he said by myopically overemphasizing ONE word in the translation.
Completely overlooking EXACTLY what he said in the rest of it.
1) This is addressing men putting away (divorcing) their wives. (not men and women)
2) There is no provision anywhere for a woman to divorce her husband.
3) For men, the consequence of adultery was death. (cultural and legal aspect)
4) This scripture discusses a man divorcing his wife for sex before marriage. (fornication)
5) Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18 (cultural and legal aspect)
6) It goes on to discuss adultery caused by remarriage,
7) It ends with the disciples concluding that it is better NOT to marry at all.
If what you say is correct...
Why did he under-emphasize adultery in regards to divorcees?
Was he allowing for anything outside of the narrower definition than
the broader application than what porneia covers?
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
/
Here's the text from the OP pasted below.
Where am I promoting adultery, fornication, polygamy, concubines, prostitution, or sex slaves?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
The position of the church and society at large is mistaken as to what Jesus was quoted as saying in the gospels. IMHO
Let's discuss.
Questions:
1) What did Jesus actually say?
2) Why did he say it?
3) If we got this wrong, where do we go from here?
The position of the church and society at large is that adultery (sexual immorality) is grounds for divorce.
And they will quote Jesus as an authority on this. But is Jesus being misquoted? Yes, I believe so.
The biggest problem is the disconnect we have with the culture that Jesus was speaking to.
The church teaches that the only grounds for divorce is adultery. (sexual immorality)
But that is not what Jesus actually said.
The basis for this teaching is found in Matthew 19:9
See the NIV translation below, taking note of verse 10 as well as verse 9. (at the very bottom of this post)
Then compare the KJV below that. Note the use of the word "fornication" which matches the NT Greek.
This makes a HUGE difference, especially when considering the cultural setting of the Israelites under the law.
Jesus was saying that the only grounds for divorce is fornication, which is sexual intercourse before marriage. (not after)
What does this mean? Both in the historical context and to the misinterpretation assigned by the church today. ???
For the Israelites, a bride's parents presented her as a virgin to her husband-to-be. The law of Moses made a provision for this.
If the husband-to-be discovered that he had been given a bride that was not a virgin, he could divorce her. (for fornication)
Unfortunately, some new husbands were making false claims in order to divorce their new brides. The fornication loophole.
Parents were allowed to challenge this claim if it was false. See Deuteronomy 22:16-18
Therefore, the KJV translation is correct and the church got it wrong.
Jesus said there is no grounds for divorce except for fornication. Now read verse 10 again.
Better not to marry? Indeed. Not if you have ANY plans to divorce.
Matthew 19:8-10 NIV
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
--- COMPARE ---
Matthew 19:8-10 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:
but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
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That's a refreshing view. - LOL
Makes the "Divorce? Never! Murder perhaps, but never divorce." view make sense.
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One more point...
There IS actually a Biblical precedent that speaks of women divorcing their husbands. Mark chapter 10, Jesus mentions women (and men) divorcing their husband/wife. In other words, the Bible does say that women were able to divorce their husbands. And it supports the idea that the rules of divorce stated by Jesus go both for men and women .... since women were able to divorce their husbands.
What Jesus was doing was addressing the question of the Pharisees asking if a man could divorce his wife for "any reason." And their question was based in Deuteronomy 24. But Jesus took His response to a much deeper level, which actually protects women who were being put away for some physical blemish, or maybe they burned the bread one too many times. Jesus used the word porneia which has a broader meaning than just fornication. It does mean any sexual perversion (fornication, adultery, incest, idolatry, harlotry ....and even homosexuality in some places in scripture). Since Jesus was speaking to men who had asked a question that was rooted in tradition, He responded to their question ......and expanded on it, as He often did in the NT. Jesus gets to the heart in every encounter with people in scripture.
There IS actually a Biblical precedent that speaks of women divorcing their husbands. Mark chapter 10, Jesus mentions women (and men) divorcing their husband/wife. In other words, the Bible does say that women were able to divorce their husbands. And it supports the idea that the rules of divorce stated by Jesus go both for men and women .... since women were able to divorce their husbands.
What Jesus was doing was addressing the question of the Pharisees asking if a man could divorce his wife for "any reason." And their question was based in Deuteronomy 24. But Jesus took His response to a much deeper level, which actually protects women who were being put away for some physical blemish, or maybe they burned the bread one too many times. Jesus used the word porneia which has a broader meaning than just fornication. It does mean any sexual perversion (fornication, adultery, incest, idolatry, harlotry ....and even homosexuality in some places in scripture). Since Jesus was speaking to men who had asked a question that was rooted in tradition, He responded to their question ......and expanded on it, as He often did in the NT. Jesus gets to the heart in every encounter with people in scripture.
I had high hopes when I read this intro paragraph. But...
I was very disappointed when you failed to produce NEW evidence.
Just rehashed the same old, same old. Boo!
/
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
When I read your OP my spirit agreed with it as truth. I'm just surprised I didn't think of it myself!
You've a very valuable point there from the truth as according to the Law of Moses, that adulterous are to be put to death. But, Jesus from the Gospel according to Matthew onward, already giving and making the New Covenantal standards with the Israelites.
Especially, with the remnant of Israelites who are saved by grace and have become His disciples. Since, He is going to accomplish the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, and having them abolished.
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