Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[grafted branch]

How so?

The rest of the dead are the ones spiritually dead the unsaved who have died and come back at the throne judgement day

There are two sets of thousand Years one the binding and one the reigning. The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

We don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because of Jesus

Well this is the first time I’ve come across a two different millennium theory. I personally don’t think that idea is supported.

 

[ScottA]

-- "Martha said to Him, I know that he shall [ἀνίστημι anístēmi] in the resurrection of the body [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] Resurrection of the body and the the Life in the body [zōḗ]!

He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live in the body [zōḗ].”

Why have you added the above (in red)?

 

[Zao is life]

Paul wrote that we are currently seatEd in heaven with Jesus and Paul wrote that we reign in life now

Is your body seated there with you?

Or is Christ's Spirit, Who is in you and with Whom your spirit is united while you are here on earth in your body, omnipresent?

 

[Zao is life]

Why have you added the above (in red)?

I added nothing. It's what the Greek word means. In the long list of verses where it's found (see below), the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

@ScottA Why has your theology taken it out?

 

[ScottA]

I added nothing. It's what the Greek word means. In the long list of verses where it's found (see below), the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body:-

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

@ScottA Why has your theology taken it out?

That is a matter of interpretation of the word as definitive to your own liking, meaning you are simply claiming yours is a better interpretation.

Even so, even giving you the benefit of the doubt (which does surely exist with the original word)--your attempt is to take it literally, while the matter is spiritual. In other words, you are not even accounting for the fact that, that would be literal body or life...is not actually literal but a mere "created" "image." Meaning, you are calling evil good.

 

[Marty fox]

Well this is the first time I’ve come across a two different millennium theory. I personally don’t think that idea is supported.

They start and end at different times and for different reasons

 

[rwb]

But insisting the souls seen by John are people who have physically died creates the problem of the rest of the dead living again when Satans little season starts.

As I've already said some translations do make it appear these martyred saints come to life AGAIN, but that is not how the verse should be interpreted. See reply #2 for why I say this.

 

[rwb]

The only place in the entire New Testament where you will find a reference to a spiritual body is in 1 Corinthians 15:44. That's the only place:

-- "It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:44.

You seem to be disagreeing with what you agree with??? Paul does not write it is raised a body spiritual, he writes it is raised a "spiritual body", because that is what those who die in faith become after our natural body has died. Just as we are while alive on earth a natural body of believers on earth, so too we shall be a supernatural spiritual body of believers in heaven. Spiritually alive as souls.

.. and it says nothing about "in heaven".

Where does the spirit that returns to God after the physical body dies, if not to heaven?

The spirits of humans (the sons of Adam) are spirits. They do not have their own bodies. That would be a separate creation to the body, soul and spirit that God created Adam with.

Adam was created body and soul, and the Spirit of God breathed eternal life into him.

Death of the body is death. God did not intend for Adam to die. There is no controversy with this fact and what Solomon said:

Humans are created with a body + spirit (breath of life) called a living soul. That's abundantly clear in the creation account in Gen 2:7.
Death of our body does not mean death of the spirit that is indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. The spirit with the Holy Spirit lives forever, while the flesh is ordained to die.

If you desire to discuss whether or not all who are born again have eternal/everlasting life that's fine, but that is not the subject of this thread.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

That is not a proper or accurate definition of Preterist beliefs.

The Preterists believed that Christ had already returned (past tense) and that it was a done deal, meaning that since then everyone else has missed His return. Paul addressed that, and also explained what is actually true, first breaking down the return of Christ into two groups (the dead in Christ, and the living in Christ (i.e. "we who are alive and remain"), then clarified, saying "but"--"but each one (individual) in his own order" or time. Which means, yes the Preterists were wrong in believing Christ had already returned as if it was a done deal--because according to Paul--it's not done until every"one" comes in "his own order" or time, even unto the end of days.

So, no, Marty has not claimed a "Preterist" belief, but it reiterating Paul's correct clarification of what is actually true. The point is--most of Christendom is, and has been, wrong in believing that the return of Christ is not an ongoing event of "each one (individual) in his own order" since Christ went to the Father and continuing until the end of days.

Did you NOT bother to read further of my posting ?

Post in thread 'Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.' Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

But no matter, as sooo many here just " itch" to discredit what others post as if all but the one discrediting is in ignorance !

Yet Mart Fox claims he is a partial preterist.
Post in thread 'Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.' Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

 

[Marty fox]

Is your body seated there with you?

Or is Christ's Spirit, Who is in you and with Whom your spirit is united while you are here on earth in your body, omnipresent?

It’s a symbolic symbol of us reigning in life and death

 

[rwb]

How so?

The rest of the dead are the ones spiritually dead the unsaved who have died and come back at the throne judgement day

There are two sets of thousand Years one the binding and one the reigning. The binding ends when satan is released and the reigning ends at the end of our world

We don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because of Jesus

When we understand Rev 20 we learn there is only one period of time symbolized a thousand years. This symbolic time begins with the advent of Christ and ends when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John begins by showing how Satan is bound during this symbolic period of time he writes as a thousand years. Then John goes on to write of all who shall be saved and have eternal/everlasting life, who have both lived and reigned with Christ in life, as well as those who shall reign with Christ during this same symbolic time he writes a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 John writes how he is given to understand there is life after physical death for those who die in faith. Speaking of the saints who have been martyred for their faith he writes during this time, symbolized a thousand years they lived and reigned with Christ. The lived and reigned with Christ on earth before they died for their faithfulness. Man must be physically alive to have lived and reigned with Christ in time.

Then John writes of the rest of the dead, that is those who had physically died but were not among the martyred for their faith. John continues to say there shall be other faithful saints who are blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection and shall also reign with Christ during this symbolic time a thousand years.

Those who have lived and reigned with Christ and those who shall reign with Christ is during the same thousand years when Satan is bound. Then when the thousand years expire Satan is set free for a little season. Rev 10 shows us that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound time, that same time symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. Because that is the symbolic time the Church is to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit. Satan is set free to continue to deceive Gog & Magog after the Kingdom of God is complete when the last Gentile to be saved enters the Kingdom of God. As Gog & Magog under the power and influence continue the spiritual warfare against Christ and Christians still alive on earth during Satan's little season, the saints shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God's wrath comes down from heaven to destroy all that is still left alive on the earth.

 

[Marty fox]

When we understand Rev 20 we learn there is only one period of time symbolized a thousand years. This symbolic time begins with the advent of Christ and ends when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

John begins by showing how Satan is bound during this symbolic period of time he writes as a thousand years. Then John goes on to write of all who shall be saved and have eternal/everlasting life, who have both lived and reigned with Christ in life, as well as those who shall reign with Christ during this same symbolic time he writes a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 John writes how he is given to understand there is life after physical death for those who die in faith. Speaking of the saints who have been martyred for their faith he writes during this time, symbolized a thousand years they lived and reigned with Christ. The lived and reigned with Christ on earth before they died for their faithfulness. Man must be physically alive to have lived and reigned with Christ in time.

Then John writes of the rest of the dead, that is those who had physically died but were not among the martyred for their faith. John continues to say there shall be other faithful saints who are blessed and holy, have part in the first resurrection and shall also reign with Christ during this symbolic time a thousand years.

Those who have lived and reigned with Christ and those who shall reign with Christ is during the same thousand years when Satan is bound. Then when the thousand years expire Satan is set free for a little season. Rev 10 shows us that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound time, that same time symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer. Because that is the symbolic time the Church is to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the earth through the power of the Holy Spirit. Satan is set free to continue to deceive Gog & Magog after the Kingdom of God is complete when the last Gentile to be saved enters the Kingdom of God. As Gog & Magog under the power and influence continue the spiritual warfare against Christ and Christians still alive on earth during Satan's little season, the saints shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and the fire of God's wrath comes down from heaven to destroy all that is still left alive on the earth.

How I see it is that there are two sets of thousand years one the reigning and one the binding. Once again we don’t reign because satan is bound we reign because Jesus reigns thus there has to be two sets of binding they aren’t a coincidence.

The reigning and the binding happened at the cross and resurrection as shown in Revelation 20:2 & 4.

The binding ends when satan is released as shown in Revelation 20:7 before his final assault on the church, his defeat, the end of our world and him being cast into the lake of fire. After this is the great white throne judgement as shown in Revelation 20:11-15

The reigning ends at the end of our world after satans defeat when the rest of the dead are raised at the great white throne judgement revelation 20:5 confirms it as we see them in verse revelation 20:12-13

 

[Marty fox]

Really? I never realized that some Premillennialists have that presupposition! As a Premill, I certainly don't have that presupposition! I thought the Millennium was associated with the Sabbath Day, in accord with the Millennial-Day Theory.

Well, obviously Premills do not make this connection. I personally believe that Christians are immediately made "alive with Christ in heaven" the moment we swear on oath to Christ, making him our Lord. We then are given his Sprit as an eternal possession, which qualifies us to partake of his heavenly gifts.

I don't think, personally, this has anything to do with a future Millennial Reign. Our "reign" today is certainly not what our "future reign" will be. We are just benefiting from Christ today in a way that falls short of what it will be in the consummation of all things.

I see nothing wrong with focusing on a "physical resurrection," as opposed to our being spiritually "raised up with Christ" in the spiritual, metaphorical sense. In fact, the primary importance of the resurrection is "physical."

The Church has been Amillennial for a couple of thousand years. The Premillennial belief was early and late in Christian history. We can believe the same things about being "raised up in Christ" today. What will happen in the future is on the speculative side--we just have to maintain an actual physical hope, as I see it. Otherwise, we only have a metaphorical, symbolic hope, which is not enough for me. :)

The big difference between Amill and Premill is, I think, about whether God will literally restore the nation Israel in the Millennial Age. Those who don't think so find no necessity for a Millennial Age. There will be neither Israel nor nations. Premill thinks the other way, finding Israel and nations critical in the fulfillment of God's literal promises to Abraham. We have to decide according to our best effort.

Hi Randy how are you?

Sorry but the first statement was a miss print by me I meant to say at the second coming not the resurrection day I did fix my mistake

Yes I don’t believe in a literal thousand years but that has nothing to do with the restoration of Israel which I also don’t believe

 

[Marty fox]

The relevancy...... is of beliefs.

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the first century. Preterists believe that the dating of the book of Revelation is of vital importance and that it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Marty believes this and looks through the lense of the fulfillment of Revelation, whether in whole or part, and may also believe Amil.
Do you also ?

In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

Christian preterists believe that the Tribulation was a divine judgment visited upon the Jews for their sins, including rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. It occurred entirely in the past, around 70 AD when the armed forces of the Roman Empire destroyed Jerusalem and its temple.

A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and the Olivet discourse, rather than on the Book of Revelation. Most preterists apply much of the symbolism in Revelation to Rome, the Caesars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.

Disclaimer: I do not hold to this erroneous doctrine and only seek to understand another's pov ( Quotes on preterism from online)

Btw, you addressed me ,not I you !

Yes I am amill but only a partial Preterist not a full one

What happened to Israel was a tribulation by God judgement for their rejection and murder of their God and Messiah but not the great tribulation. I believe that The great tribulation is the persecution of the saints by satan and it started on the day Stephen was killed and is still happening today

Actually I believe that revelation is Johns version of the Olivit discourse starting with the destruction of Jerusalem who is Babylon the great.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes I am amill but only a partial Preterist not a full one

What happened to Israel was a tribulation by God judgement for their rejection and murder of their God and Messiah but not the great tribulation. I believe that The great tribulation is the persecution of the saints by satan and it started on the day Stephen was killed and is still happening today

This would mean your view has the Millennium happening at the same time as the tribulation. Scripture does not support that. The trib happens first, then the Millennium. Rev 20 has those who were killed in the trib before the thousand years even begins which proves what I have stated.

 

[Marty fox]

This would mean your view has the Millennium happening at the same time as the tribulation. Scripture does not support that. The trib happens first, then the Millennium. Rev 20 has those who were killed in the trib before the thousand years even begins which proves what I have stated.

In your view of what the millennium is yes but not in my view of what the millennium is

 

[ScottA]

Did you NOT bother to read further of my posting ?

Post in thread 'Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.' Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

But no matter, as sooo many here just " itch" to discredit what others post as if all but the one discrediting is in ignorance !

Yet Mart Fox claims he is a partial preterist.
Post in thread 'Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.' Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

Perhaps I misunderstood you to be speaking against Marty's point as well as Paul's. Now I see why you laughed. My apologies if that is the case! And you are correct--I have not read all the posts in the thread, but was just responding to your response to Marty's OP.

 

[ewq1938]

In your view of what the millennium is yes but not in my view of what the millennium is

It's not my view. It's what Rev 20 says which proves the trib took place before the thousand years takes place. That means it is impossible for the two periods to be simultaneous.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy how are you?

Sorry but the first statement was a miss print by me I meant to say at the second coming not the resurrection day I did fix my mistake

Yes I don’t believe in a literal thousand years but that has nothing to do with the restoration of Israel which I also don’t believe

Right, the historic Church rejected Israel's future role in a prophecy of national restoration. However, I believe the Early Church expected that Israel would be restored. And the belief has reemerged in modern times. You have to believe according to your best understanding of Scriptures.

I'm fine, Marty, except that I caught a cold coming in from out of state, which then developed into bronchitis. I coughed my way through the holiday season. ;) Still recovering... But thanks for asking.

Happy after-Season to you! :)

 

[Zao is life]

It’s a symbolic symbol of us reigning in life and death

Christ is not seated in heaven symbolically.