Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[Grailhunter]

Watched some of this video.

My criticism of this approach is simply the value is analytical understanding.
The Lord declares from His position, and we can expand and honour and work out this declaration.

Our thought process is linear, and relies on going from one concept to another.
The difficulty is when we have to hold thousands of perspectives together and see the balance.
But this is the Lord, and in the end trust and love are the key to pull us through.

I know I am an emotional creature driven by models in my mind which make sense of this world is which I travel.
The pragmatic approach is finding how the Lords words work out, applying them and seeing their fruit.
No system is definitive and absolute, but walking in love and faith guide our steps through.

When Jesus says the Father will destroy the body and soul of some, then this is a prophetic statement of reality.
Judgement is an ultimate reference point, but only as a warning. When you drive a car on a mountain road,
knowing the sheer drop on one side just declares the finality of failure of following the road, it changes nothing about
the skills and mechanical operation of the car to keep it going in the right direction. So the warning is seek, listen,
find the place of Gods heart and follow Jesus.

Paul warned us not to judge or feel ourselves superior over others, but just to walk in love.
And often the disagreements in denominations are because of pain and anger inflicted from one group upon another.

And our certainties are often our defence against being wrong or failing, so we want to define the undefinable, and when
our structures are challenged to build them stronger. But step back and see both are right, often with different emphasis,
so the Lord is not going to divide over this but rather how each deal with the other.

Is a church service woe is me, I am undone, again or is it halleluyah I have been resolved to God, repented and made new
and finding victory and transformation each step I take, even in the stumbles and failures, still the Lords way holds true.

God bless you

If I am understanding your post correctly…..

You are perplexed or struggling with some of the inconsistencies or apparent contradictions in Christianity. If so I may be able to help with that.

The Bible is written in such a fashion that it is easy to not be able to see the forest for the trees. And this is one of the reasons that there are thousands of denominations. I will get back to this but first I want to clarify something.

Salvation….if you are sincere….salvation is secure…seat in Heaven with your name on it. When you get down to it Christianity is one of the most simplest of religions….salvation is simple. That is why Christ could state the bottom line in two commandments…Love God and love one another. It is an absolute truth that what you do matters in regard to your salvation. That does not mean you have to be perfect, even though perfection is the goal….aim small miss small. Sincerely love God and sincerely love one another. Sincerely try to be good and do good for others. And on occasion we will fail. The concept that God planed a system of salvation for the perfect is an oxymoron. If so, there would be no reason for it.

Can we sin our way to Hell? Yes, but you have to work at it. Some of us are better at being good than others but the plan is made for both. Yahweh warned us from the very beginning… If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it Genesis 4:6-7 You can sin to a point that sin engulfs you and you are toast. But again you have to work for it and this type of sin is mostly lifestyle sins…. homosexuality, a doctor that murder babies in a building designed for murdering babies, living your life stoned…things such as that…but that is working for sin and means you are not sincere about Christianity so again if you are sincere salvation is sincere.

Now for the inconsistencies or apparent contradictions in Christianity. The Bible was written in a certain religious literary style where any one person could make statements to the extreme ends of any one topic. That is why you see people that are debating here on this forum that can produce scriptures from the same Apostle that seems to support two different view points.

This is a norm within the Bible, norm or not it has caused a lot of confusion and why there are so many denominations. Keep it simple Sam…LOL…For this reason it is important to understand the big picture …stand back and look at the forest. Understanding the Spirit of Christ is understanding the Spirit of Christianity and brings clarity to the understanding of salvation.

 

[MatthewG]

Watched some of this video.

My criticism of this approach is simply the value is analytical understanding.
The Lord declares from His position, and we can expand and honour and work out this declaration.

Our thought process is linear, and relies on going from one concept to another.
The difficulty is when we have to hold thousands of perspectives together and see the balance.
But this is the Lord, and in the end trust and love are the key to pull us through.

I know I am an emotional creature driven by models in my mind which make sense of this world is which I travel.
The pragmatic approach is finding how the Lords words work out, applying them and seeing their fruit.
No system is definitive and absolute, but walking in love and faith guide our steps through.

When Jesus says the Father will destroy the body and soul of some, then this is a prophetic statement of reality.
Judgement is an ultimate reference point, but only as a warning. When you drive a car on a mountain road,
knowing the sheer drop on one side just declares the finality of failure of following the road, it changes nothing about
the skills and mechanical operation of the car to keep it going in the right direction. So the warning is seek, listen,
find the place of Gods heart and follow Jesus.

Paul warned us not to judge or feel ourselves superior over others, but just to walk in love.
And often the disagreements in denominations are because of pain and anger inflicted from one group upon another.

And our certainties are often our defence against being wrong or failing, so we want to define the undefinable, and when
our structures are challenged to build them stronger. But step back and see both are right, often with different emphasis,
so the Lord is not going to divide over this but rather how each deal with the other.

Is a church service woe is me, I am undone, again or is it halleluyah I have been resolved to God, repented and made new
and finding victory and transformation each step I take, even in the stumbles and failures, still the Lords way holds true.

God bless you

Thanks, Walkinlight. This guy has been a very helpful teacher to me for a very long time.

Love the bible, and believe it's a great and useful spiritual tool (including historical) for any human being, however there is also the spirit! Praise God. :) Faith and love, and a little bit of feet washing (just kidding.)

 

[Gottservant]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

This is a hot Church (fires of Hell)/cold Church (separation from God) thing.

But its a good observation, we need to be mindful of peoples whose perspective shifts.

 

[WalkInLight]

If I am understanding your post correctly…..

You are perplexed or struggling with some of the inconsistencies or apparent contradictions in Christianity. If so I may be able to help with that.

The Bible is written in such a fashion that it is easy to not be able to see the forest for the trees. And this is one of the reasons that there are thousands of denominations. I will get back to this but first I want to clarify something.

Salvation….if you are sincere….salvation is secure…seat in Heaven with your name on it. When you get down to it Christianity is one of the most simplest of religions….salvation is simple. That is why Christ could state the bottom line in two commandments…Love God and love one another. It is an absolute truth that what you do matters in regard to your salvation. That does not mean you have to be perfect, even though perfection is the goal….aim small miss small. Sincerely love God and sincerely love one another. Sincerely try to be good and do good for others. And on occasion we will fail. The concept that God planed a system of salvation for the perfect is an oxymoron. If so, there would be no reason for it.

Can we sin our way to Hell? Yes, but you have to work at it. Some of us are better at being good than others but the plan is made for both. Yahweh warned us from the very beginning… If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it Genesis 4:6-7 You can sin to a point that sin engulfs you and you are toast. But again you have to work for it and this type of sin is mostly lifestyle sins…. homosexuality, a doctor that murder babies in a building designed for murdering babies, living your life stoned…things such as that…but that is working for sin and means you are not sincere about Christianity so again if you are sincere salvation is sincere.

Now for the inconsistencies or apparent contradictions in Christianity. The Bible was written in a certain religious literary style where any one person could make statements to the extreme ends of any one topic. That is why you see people that are debating here on this forum that can produce scriptures from the same Apostle that seems to support two different view points.

This is a norm within the Bible, norm or not it has caused a lot of confusion and why there are so many denominations. Keep it simple Sam…LOL…For this reason it is important to understand the big picture …stand back and look at the forest. Understanding the Spirit of Christ is understanding the Spirit of Christianity and brings clarity to the understanding of salvation.

Thank you for this.

Emotional reading of scripture. I am commanded to respect my parents, which for many is very hard, especially if they are abusive and been serious harm to their development. Jesus when comparing love for Him conflicting with love for family etc. we should love Him and hate our families ie. follow Him rather than loyalty to the family and its ways.

This highlights an important reality. We are basically emotional creatures with an analytical mind which interprets and fills in the gaps.
So the command to respect our parents is to respect they are why we exist, and their role to give us food and protection worked to varying degrees. Emotionally we love them, in this God given role, but we do not love their sin and harm done to us. But when we learn how damaged and destructive they are, we see them as much victims of sin as we are, and in Gods love who is our true Father we can be healed and grow in the Lords love and grace.

It took me many years to realise my dad had ptsd from the 2nd world war and never could connect with his emotions and my mother had ptsd from her childhood over a bout of appendicitis which almost killed her. With this history it is hard to see a loving God who has ones best interests at heart. But this is the gospel, we are born into a lost world with reasons to be hard and cynical, but we can choose to overcome this and see love conquers all, and find the freedom love brings to us despite our hurts and battered existence.

I know for many these words will just be words but do not connect, while others will know because they too have walked this path.

This is why we know Jesus, because He connected with us, as He took all the rubbish of the world and all it could do to destroy Him and He forgave them.

God bless you

 

[St. SteVen]

This is a hot Church (fires of Hell)/cold Church (separation from God) thing.

Like a lukewarm thing? (church in Laodicea)

Revelation 3:16 NIV
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

But its a good observation, we need to be mindful of people's whose perspective shifts.

What do you think is driving the perspective shifts?

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for this.

Emotional reading of scripture. I am commanded to respect my parents, which for many is very hard, especially if they are abusive and been serious harm to their development. Jesus when comparing love for Him conflicting with love for family etc. we should love Him and hate our families ie. follow Him rather than loyalty to the family and its ways.

This highlights an important reality. We are basically emotional creatures with an analytical mind which interprets and fills in the gaps.
So the command to respect our parents is to respect they are why we exist, and their role to give us food and protection worked to varying degrees. Emotionally we love them, in this God given role, but we do not love their sin and harm done to us. But when we learn how damaged and destructive they are, we see them as much victims of sin as we are, and in Gods love who is our true Father we can be healed and grow in the Lords love and grace.

It took me many years to realise my dad had ptsd from the 2nd world war and never could connect with his emotions and my mother had ptsd from her childhood over a bout of appendicitis which almost killed her. With this history it is hard to see a loving God who has ones best interests at heart. But this is the gospel, we are born into a lost world with reasons to be hard and cynical, but we can choose to overcome this and see love conquers all, and find the freedom love brings to us despite our hurts and battered existence.

I know for many these words will just be words but do not connect, while others will know because they too have walked this path.

This is why we know Jesus, because He connected with us, as He took all the rubbish of the world and all it could do to destroy Him and He forgave them.

God bless you

Have you ever seen the movie The Shack?

 

[WalkInLight]

Have you ever seen the movie The Shack?

I know the film the Shack.
Its theme is very good, except the idea that love will always speak through to peoples hearts.
I have seen people pass away resolute in their position. The proposition is, faced with the Lord
and His life people will fold, except the Pharisees heard and saw Jesus and were prepared to have
Him executed.

A lost heart shuts out everything that can reach them, and it appears to force through will just destroy the individual. It is why God does not create believers, He calls them and they follow.
After debating with believers with closed hearts, it is obvious belief by itself does not bring
revelation or freedom.

God bless you

 

[Grailhunter]

I know the film the Shack.
Its theme is very good, except the idea that love will always speak through to peoples hearts.
I have seen people pass away resolute in their position. The proposition is, faced with the Lord
and His life people will fold, except the Pharisees heard and saw Jesus and were prepared to have
Him executed.

A lost heart shuts out everything that can reach them, and it appears to force through will just destroy the individual. It is why God does not create believers, He calls them and they follow.
After debating with believers with closed hearts, it is obvious belief by itself does not bring
revelation or freedom.

God bless you

Well then you know the theme of the movie.
Besides losing his daughter, he had issues with his father.
Well the part where he is talking to Wisdom, she shows him that this character flaw can go back generations.
This sort of thing is hard to fix in their lifetime and if it is going to get fixed it is going to take drastic action.
And it usually going to take some one that is willing to step up and go the extra mile.

1. People that are abusive usually have a past and are in pain themselves and when you get down to it they are generally serious cowards.

2. They can sense fear and look for people that have fear in them to start relationships with.

3. Their victims are people that subconsciously desire to be abused. Christians that see suffering and abuse as part of their religious devotion are perfect targets. We have all seen it, women that remain in abusive relationships and if they do escape find other abusive relationships. It is the desire to be a victim, conscience or subconscious.

4. Both need help.

 

[WalkInLight]

Well then you know the theme of the movie.
Besides losing his daughter, he had issues with his father.
Well the part where he is talking to Wisdom, she shows him that this character flaw can go back generations.
This sort of thing is hard to fix in their lifetime and if it is going to get fixed it is going to take drastic action.
And it usually going to take some one that is willing to step up and go the extra mile.

1. People that are abusive usually have a past and are in pain themselves and when you get down to it they are generally serious cowards.

2. They can sense fear and look for people that have fear in them to start relationships with.

3. Their victims are people that subconsciously desire to be abused. Christians that see suffering and abuse as part of their religious devotion are perfect targets. We have all seen it, women that remain in abusive relationships and if they do escape find other abusive relationships. It is the desire to be a victim, conscience or subconscious.

4. Both need help.

This area leads me to the principle of fault and punishment.
A part of christian thought is everyone is on the same moral plain of choice and responsibility. Clearly people have many different levels of perception of others and their own self worth, and how they respond emotionally to the unpredictable world in which we live.

So the area of the innocence of children arises. How can a child who has not reached the age of responsibility be said to sin in a condemned way. This is putting the proposition judgement occurs because of defined sinful actions. If we were perfect there would be no judgement. It proposes people are innocent until the first sinful act is done. This creates a further proposition that if we are redeemed a sinful act then condemns us until repentance sets us free again.

Some have therefore argued all children are saved, it is only after the age of responsibility that condemnation occurs.

If we step back from this and say the problem is separation from God, being born alone in a real sense, linked to our mum and dad, is the ultimate condemnation, which will lead to sin and compound our lostness. In this model sin is the symtom of separation not its cause.
Paul extends this argument saying the believing parent covers the children in the covenant because they are born into the Kingdom.

Another analogy is the parable of the seed and the sower. It is the hardness of the ground and the depth to which the word can grow that defines those in the Kingdom and those not. So sanctification is the transformation of the lost sinner into perfect saint on step at a time. The key marker of salvation is the presence of the Holy Spirit and the direction of travel.

This particular reality of communion with the Lord rather than sinful deeds have to be all resolved day 1, or you are lost causes most confusion. Paul used the encouragement of aiming at perfection, of sowing to the Spirit not the flesh, of using things of God to grow in Him combatting temptations and desires to go elsewhere.

I am very aware we carry an emotional history which drives most of our lives. What Jesus can do is to help change this so our emotional reaction to others and our lives comes to be what Jesus would desire. I know this can sound glib and so much can be assumed as stable and I can cope, when actually I am very fragile and prone to issues if I am not careful. But the Lord has changed me, and I react now very differently to how I used to, and I can express love and encouragement that in the past I would be incapable of doing.

This is a glorious gospel Jesus gives us, and a key to eternal life and relationships so deep its hard to fully express. A small part is the consequences of not following and opening up to Jesus, but until you experience it, judgement and accountability seem so arbitrary and unfair.

God bless you

 

[TheHC]

Over the years I have noticed a shift away from the embarrassment of the hell doctrine.
It had always seemed like the "fly in the ointment" of Christianity to me.
But we had biblical evidence that it was sad, but true.

The solution was evangelism. We are in the business of "saving souls from hell." Err...
I mean "eternal separation from God." (whatever that means to you) ???

This task of world evangelism was completely overwhelming.
We had annual world missions conferences for fund raising.
We were sending and supporting missionaries at home and abroad.

Some were wanting to be good stewards of their giving by
demanding results, or channeling the funds toward "fruitful" ministries.
Which meant withdrawing support from any who seemed to not
measure up to their expectations. Made me wonder.

Here at home we were still expected to spread the good news.
But, an over-evangelized America was less than welcoming.
They hadn't forgotten the "hellfire and brimstone".

What's your take on all of this?



@Patrick1966 @Hillsage @Chadrho @FaithWillDo @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @quietthinker @Lambano

You make some good points!
Very astute.

At Genesis 37:35, Jacob uses the Hebrew word “Sheol”, where he says he is going “down to”.

This is the same word, along with the Greek word “Hades” in the NT, that is translated “hell” in many places ….

In fact, here is a link to that Scripture on BibleHub:

Genesis 37:35 - Jacob Mourns Joseph

All his sons and daughters tried to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. No, he said. I will go down to Sheol mourning for my son. So his father wept for him.

biblehub.com

If you scroll down to the Douay-Rheims version, you’ll see how it is translated there.

In Job 14:13, Job said he asked God to send him there, for relief; here is another link to BibleHub:

Job 14:13 - Job Laments the Finality of Death

If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger has passed! If only You would appoint a time for me and then remember me!

biblehub.com

Notice in both Scriptures, the various ways Sheol has been translated.
Again, look at the Douay.

At Acts 2:27, the Apostle Peter quoted the words of Psalms 16:10….
Psalm 16:10 - The Presence of God
….to Jesus. (Notice the KJV & the Douay ) So Jesus, too, was in hell.

The teaching of “torment in hell” has been used for centuries as a tactic to control the masses.

You might find the following article interesting (it’s not by JW’s, so no one can yell bias):

Is There a Burning Hell?

A discussion of all the Bible words that are translated as Hell and Hell Fire

2001translation.com

I don’t agree with everything they publish, but this topic is almost a mirror of my understanding. Almost.

 

[Jack]

Every English Bible I know of warns us of the everlasting fire.

 

[TheHC]

Revelation 20:14…NIV…

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

Other versions found at

Revelation 20:14 - The Final Judgment

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

biblehub.com

How can you burn death, a non-tangible thing? You can’t.

But fire can have a symbolic meaning, of complete destruction forever.
Just as when literal fire burns something up…. You ain’t ever getting it back! The same with its symbolic meaning…. Death “thrown into” fire, simply means that death (due to sin) will be gone forever, it will be no more.
Which is exactly what Revelation 21:4 says.

 

[St. SteVen]

But fire can have a symbolic meaning, of complete destruction forever.
Just as when literal fire burns something up…. You ain’t ever getting it back! The same with its symbolic meaning…. Death “thrown into” fire, simply means that death (due to sin) will be gone forever, it will be no more.
Which is exactly what Revelation 21:4 says.

Yes.
We already understand the process of burning the "wood, hay, and stubble" in the judgment of our works.
Even if everything burns up, the one tested "escapes as one through the flames." (saved) See 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

I think the same will apply to everyone. The goal is redemption and restoration.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

You make some good points!
Very astute.

Thank you.
And for your thoughtful and through post. Much appreciated.

The teaching of “torment in hell” has been used for centuries as a tactic to control the masses.

Agree.
The offering of "the free gift of eternal life", or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.
Which amounts to spiritual extortion. IMO

All intended to play on our emotions. Our longing for home and rest. (heaven)
And our fear of pain and suffering. (hell)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

At Acts 2:27, the Apostle Peter the words of Psalms 16:10….
Psalm 16:10 - The Presence of God
….to Jesus. (Notice the KJV & the Douay ) So Jesus, too, was in hell.

This is even referred to in the Creed.
"... he descended into hell..." (line 9 below)

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.


/

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes little men dare think they are better, more moral.more loving.more just and fair than Almighty God=great error.

 

[Hobie]

Every English Bible I know of warns us of the everlasting fire.

When Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt up, those in the city received a judgement that will not be changed, its everlasting, thus the use of everlasting fire. Same as those wicked in the lake of fire, they will perish, with a final judgement that will separate them from God, forever.

 

[Jack]

When Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt up, those in the city received a judgement that will not be changed, its everlasting, thus the use of everlasting fire. Same as those wicked in the lake of fire, they will perish, with a final judgement that will separate them from God, forever.

Why don't you try the NT?

 

[Hobie]

Why don't you try the NT?

Well lets look...

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Jack]

Well lets look...

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

There you go! Like Jesus said, eternal life and eternal punishment. NEVER ending.