SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[GracePeace]

God only accepts worship in spirit and TRUTH-John 4:22-24-- I shared bible truth on what Jesus says it takes to enter Gods kingdom and get eternal life.

Off topic, as noted.

There are basically two sides you can take in this discussion :

1) You are saved by grace through faith, and you do not work for salvation--you do good works because you are saved.

2) You are saved by grace through faith, and God expects you to walk in faith afterward; if, instead, you continue sinning, you will fall under God's wrath and not inherit what He promised.

These are roughly the two positions being argued--this other issue you are raising ("Christ's divinity : Yea or Nay?") doesn't fall within either side of what is being argued.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Living word of God is his seed...the Holy Spirit....Heart Knowledge and revelation.​

Head Knowledge is useless without the seed of God....who leads his children into all truth...” His Truth “.

1 Peter 1:23 KJV​

being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

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Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen.
You were given a CHOICE when grace was revealed and you were drawn by the conviction of the Holy Spirit !

YOU COULD HAVE REFUSED THE GRACE OF GOD UNTO SALVATION, AS MANY DO !!!

CHOOSE THIS DAY, WHILE IT IS CALLED TODAY, WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

He would NOT have been living in you, IF you had rejected his grace.

For it is by grace through faith; his grace, our faith in believing he is whom he says he is.

God does not force, coerce, overwhelm, nor enter into a person making them to believe.
However, the evil spirit does, then lies to convince such of their righteousness, and blinds them to the truth of God's word.

It is sad.
I can image such a one being thrown from loved ones homes, desiring to participate in murder, rebelling even to the pulling out of their own hair in rage when told God's word or being told of the the need of his word for living in him !

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If predestination or predeterminism were true, THEN GOD WOULD HAVE TO BE A LIAR.

 

[Ritajanice]

Man made words, will never get one into Heaven, this is what happens when one doesn’t understand what it means to be Born Again of Gods seed....

They make up their own man made theology...believing that God forces his children to be Born Again...

The seed of God, the Bible is Gods word..we can’t live without his seed...the seed that lives in us, brings us to all knowledge of Gods truth...as his seed grows and matures us...the more the Holy Spirit brings us to the truth of Gods word.....it’s an Amazing relationship we have with God, via his Holy Spirit.

We have the Spirit/ Seed of God in our hearts.....then we have his seed the Living word..The Bible.....which we need ,to have that intimate relationship with God..as children that is how we get to know him, through his seed..via his Spirit.....The Bible....without God’s seed in our hearts and his seed the Bible...we would still be in darkness and sin, alienated from God....my testimony and belief...

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

They need to be Born Of Gods seed....because the seed comes from God...and not from their own made up theory of what it truly means to be Born Again...all imo, of course.

Born Again Scripture....not what one thinks is Born Again Scripture.."..the Carnal mind couldn’t possibly understand this Scripture.they twist Gods word, because they don’t understand what it means to be Born Of God....therefore they say he forces his children to be Born Again.....that is a carnal mind thinking.
..Gods seed is a Living seed...he is the Holy Spirit.....he is the Life Giver....

Nowhere in scripture does God say he enters into a person to make them believe..plus it’s the Holy Spirit who enters our hearts.Gods seed, the Living word of God...we believe in our head, as God brought us to believe in our mind/ head.........we then believe in our hearts after we are Born Again...how can you have faith without God’s Spirit entering your heart?............no one said we don’t believe .....but, imo it is God who brings us to believe..man alone cannot believe in God, he needs Gods intervention to believe in Jesus.........then we are Born Again...Spirit gives birth to spirit....

There is also no faith without the seed of God Living in ones heart...Faith without the Spirit is no faith at all...it’s just human faith, void of Gods Holy Spirit.
Believing is not being Born Again.....Belief first of course..anyone can say they believe ,

James 2:19​

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”





..then we must receive the seed of God into our hearts / Spirit gives birth to spirit.......Born Again of incorruptible seed, that is the Holy Spirit penetrating the believers heart, because they have been Born of God..........not of mans theory..which makes no sense to a Born Again.its just their own mumbo jumbo...they are the ones who spread confusion over Gods word...Gods word to the Born Again are very easy to understand....because they have been Born of Gods Living seed........as his word says.

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1 Peter 1:23 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God John 3 King James Version​ 3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. ​ ◄ John 1:13 ► ​ Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. New Living Translation They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God. English Standard Version who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Berean Standard Bible children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God Romans 8:30​ Romans 8:30 KJV​ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Matthew 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, ****Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, ****It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then sait JESUS into him, GET THEE HENCE,SATAN, for it is writtenThou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Luke 8:11-15
11 Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

( Read whole of Luke 8 to see the different grounds the word of God, THE SEED, is sown in)

satan can quote the word, for his purpose, out of the context if the H.S.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I apologize to @Titus, the O.P of this thread for this uncalled for diversion. The perverting & corrupting of God's truths must be rebuked !

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man according to what the Word of the Lord tells us in James 2:20.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It's not a matter of trying to earn salvation thru good works... It's a matter of being obedient verses being disobedient!

Those that accept the calling of the Lord and become new creatures in Christ Jesus abiding in Him doing good works by the power of the Holy Spirit within as the Lord leads... these are true children of God.

Those claiming to be saved not walking in obedience have rejected the ordination and calling of the Lord and are the children of disobedience who refuse to put on the new man and walk in newness of life to stop being servants of sin...

Colossians 3:5-9
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

As these scripture references indicate, those not accepting the calling of the Lord to be led by the Holy Ghost into walking after the new man are in disobedience... which will NOT end well for them unless they repent of their sin and get with the Lord's game plan!

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Colossians 3:6
the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

 

[Ritajanice]

The seed of. God is given to the Born Again.

They are the ones who have been Born Again of imperishable “ SEED”:as per his word says..therefore a Born Again receives the imperishable seed into their “ HEARTS “ via his Spirit.

The parable of the sower is all about the heart.the soil represents the heart.......without being Born Again..of Gods Spirit, then I’m afraid we are none of His...

Gods seed is a Living seed..it’s not something you read..and the Living seed of God ..is when Spirit gives birth to spirit...

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

New Living Translation
For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

English Standard Version
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Berean Standard Bible
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The seed if God is given to the Born Again.

They are the ones who have been Born Again of imperishable “ SEED”:as per his word says..therefore a Born Again receives the imperishable seed in their “ HEARTS “ via his Spirit.

That would be God's Word.

According to Jesus, the Word can be choked out of someone's life and they end up not baring fruit (Mark 4:13-20)

Jesus also said He is the vine and those that don't abide in Him and bare fruit are cut off (John 15)

And of course the OSAS peoples will claim Jesus mispoke or something since they cannot accpt everything Jesus says, only those things that agree with their preconceived ideas about OSAS (eisegesis)

 

[Ritajanice]

That would be God's Word.

According to Jesus, the Word can be choked out of someone's life and they end up not baring fruit (Mark 4:13-20)

Jesus also said He is the vine and those that don't abide in Him and bare fruit are cut off (John 15)

And of course the OSAS peoples will claim Jesus mispoke or something since they cannot accpt everything Jesus says, only those things that agree with their preconceived ideas about OSAS (eisegesis)

Did you actually read this scripture?

We are Born Again...therefore NOT among the weeds that can be choked out.
Berean Standard Bible
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God


A Born Again will always remain in the “ true vine” because they have been Born Again of Gods seed.

Which means what exactly?

What does being Born of Gods seed mean?

We are Born Again of “ IMPERISHABLE SEED”...?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

We are Born Again...therefore NOT among the weeds that can be choked out.

Jesus said the sower sows the Word

All those He spoke of received the Word.

Some allowed certain things to enter in and choke the Word causing them to NOT bare fruit.

Jesus says those not abiding in Him are cut off because Jesus does not teach OSAS

God's Word does not perish, but we are in fact capable of turning away from God's Word

Let me know if this helps you escape the OSAS cult!

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus said the sower sows the Word

All those He spoke of received the Word.

Some allowed certain things to enter in and choke the Word causing them to NOT bare fruit.

Jesus says those not abiding in Him are cut off because Jesus does not teach OSAS

Let me know if this helps you escape the false doctrine of OSAS.

The soil represents the heart?

A Born Again has been Born Again of imperishable seed?

A Born Again will bear fruit, because they have been Born Again of Gods seed..

Let me know when you can explain what the true meaning of Born Again means ..because as of yet..you haven’t?

Therefore you are not in a position..to preach what you preach.....once Born Again always Born Again...we have been Born Again of imperishable seed?

That has been sown into our hearts...by Gods Living seed?

Berean Standard Bible
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

A Born Again will bear fruit, because they have been Born Again of Gods seed..

Well you can argue that Jesus taught wrongly in Mark 4:13-20 if you'd like.

once Born Again always Born Again

Not according to God's Word, but that apparently is besides the point.

To believe in OSAS, one can only accept a few select bible verses and must throw the rest of God's Word in the trash.

That's the only way to hold one's OSAS position.

 

[BarneyFife]

To believe in OSAS, one can only accept a few select bible verses and must throw the rest of God's Word in the trash.

Hard to believe someone would do something like that.

.

 

[Ritajanice]

Well you can argue that Jesus taught wrongly in Mark 4:13-20 if you'd like.




Not according to God's Word, but that apparently is besides the point.

To believe in OSAS, one can only accept a few select bible verses and must throw the rest of God's Word in the trash.

That's the only way to hold one's OSAS position.

Once again...your words are void..because you have yet to show me what it means to be Born of Gods seed?

Therefore you are in ignorance...of the true Living seed ,that is Gods truth.

I go by Gods word to his “ Born Again “ children.....NOT what your opinion of scripture is.

I have posted at great lengths scripture on being Born Again.

You have yet to explain what that means...therefore it is “ YOU” who is denying the word of God....

You post an opinion of what “ you” think God is saying to a Born Again.....none Of scripture you post, has NO mention of Born Again...if it does...then show us?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Hard to believe someone would do something like that.

And yet, that's exactly what they do!

Lots of folks have preconceived ideas and any bible verses that doesn't agree with their preconceived ideas must be discarded. They will either explain them away some how, blame the translators for getting it wrong, or just ignore them altogether.

People don't like their religious apple cart being turned over

 

[BarneyFife]

And yet, that's exactly what they do!

Lots of folks have preconceived ideas and any bible verses that doesn't agree with their preconceived ideas must be discarded. They will either explain them away some how, blame the translators for getting it wrong, or just ignore them altogether.

People don't like their religious apple cart being turned over View attachment 39314

That doesn't seem very funny.

What determines if something is a preconceived idea?

.

 

[Ritajanice]

And yet, that's exactly what they do!

Lots of folks have preconceived ideas and any bible verses that doesn't agree with their preconceived ideas must be discarded. They will either explain them away some how, blame the translators for getting it wrong, or just ignore them altogether.

People don't like their religious apple cart being turned over View attachment 39314

How can our apple cart be turned over by you....when you can’t even explain what it means to be Born Again of Gods seed?

You can’t even explain what seed is?

Therefore you voice “ your own” theory/ theology..manmade doctrine....

You speak for God...instead of allowing him to speak his, the word of truth.

We can’t have a discussion with you, for you are yet to explain Born Again of imperishable seed?

Or even what Born Again means....that has to be learnt , and it can only be learnt by the seed of God.?

After we have become Born Again by the seed of God....then we start learning and we learn by the Spirit not of ourselves.

Salvation is from God....you can’t work in your own strength for salvation.

The central truth of God's saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man's salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God. The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross


Faith is an AMAZING gift from God.


1 Corinthians 12:7-11 lists a number of spiritual gifts, including the gift of faith: “To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit …”
The gift of faith enables some people to have an extraordinary amount of faith that God uses to show us His power in ways that create joy and encouragement for others. We might see someone with the gift of faith as a superior Christian, but that is far from the truth.

Amen!!.....as he uses us to Glorify His Name and His Name alone.

The Holy Spirit Glorifies the Father through us...as he gave us the precious gift of Faith.....without the Spirit, there is only human faith...no faith at all.just empty vessels ...no life in them ( spiritual life).

1 Corinthians 12:7-11

King James Version

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7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

[TheHC]

Faith & works go hand-in-hand.
Like love, faith is a motivator.

Good works... really, what we do & how we act in everyday life… shows if we have a living faith, or a dead faith, ie., no faith at all.
James clarified this when he wrote at James 2:17, “faith by itself, without works, is dead.”
Vs.26 reiterates the fact.