Who Satan really is?

[jerzy]

I noticed people referring to Satan as a powerful supernatural entity competing with God.

Alas, this is nothing else but the old Egyptian belief about existence of a bad god Sat transplanted into Christianity as a fallen angel Satan.

It is absolutely unbiblical.

It is a good tool for preachers who scare people making them believe that they can save them from this monster.

But no wonder.

This isn’t the only pagan belief that Christianity accepted by “compromising” with pagans:

"We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity." Pope Gregory I (601 AD).

I am sure you are going to ask for a proof.

Here it is:

The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity. -The Catholic Encyclopedia

Congratulation!!!!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I noticed people referring to Satan as a powerful supernatural entity competing with God.

Alas, this is nothing else but the old Egyptian belief about existence of a bad god Sat transplanted into Christianity as a fallen angel Satan.

It is absolutely unbiblical.

It is a good tool for preachers who scare people making them believe that they can save them from this monster.

But no wonder.

This isn’t the only pagan belief that Christianity accepted by “compromising” with pagans:

"We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity." Pope Gregory I (601 AD).

I am sure you are going to ask for a proof.

Here it is:

The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity. -The Catholic Encyclopedia

Congratulation!!!!

OK .... so how do you describe Satan ?

 

[Joshua David]

Here it is:

The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity. -The Catholic Encyclopedia


Congratulation!!!!

Still waiting for the proof.

 

[jerzy]

OK .... so how do you describe Satan ?

Something like this:

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Still waiting for the proof.

The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity. -The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone")

"We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity." Pope Gregory I (601 AD).

 

[Joshua David]

The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity. -The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone")

"We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity." Pope Gregory I (601 AD).

Help me out here... what does this have to do with who Satan really is? I was looking for proof that....

I noticed people referring to Satan as a powerful supernatural entity competing with God.

Alas, this is nothing else but the old Egyptian belief about existence of a bad god Sat transplanted into Christianity as a fallen angel Satan.

It is absolutely unbiblical.

It is a good tool for preachers who scare people making them believe that they can save them from this monster.

Please support your statement above with supporting facts that actually deal with the issue. In other words do you have supporting documentation that states or at least implies that Satan was derived from the Egyptian god Sat? or is this just an opinion that you have?

Let me say from the start that have my own issues with the Catholic Church and Sola Scriptura, as well as the inclusion of pagan influences into the Catholic churches, but neither of those deal with the issue of the supposed origins of Satan. Please support your statement with documentation that deals with the issue.


Joshua David

 

[jerzy]

Help me out here... what does this have to do with who Satan really is? I was looking for proof that....

Just another pagan fable.

Please support your statement above with supporting facts that actually deal with the issue. In other words do you have supporting documentation that states or at least implies that Satan was derived from the Egyptian god Sat? or is this just an opinion that you have?

No, there is a historical track of how the Egyptian Sat became a Christian fallen angel Satan.

Let me say from the start that have my own issues with the Catholic Church and Sola Scriptura, as well as the inclusion of pagan influences into the Catholic churches, but neither of those deal with the issue of the supposed origins of Satan. Please support your statement with documentation that deals with the issue.

Let me ask you from the start to show written that Satan is a fallen angel.

 

[Pelaides]

Satan is described many times in the Old testament,which was written years before the birth of Christ and the emergence of catholisism.
From the beginning of time until now man has always reconized the struggle between good and evil.you will see this in almost all religions,even pagan religions,Why should the Catholics be called pagan because they teach about satan?The Egyptians did not invent the Devil.

 

[jerzy]

Satan is described many times in the Old testament...

True, but never as a fallen angel.

From the beginning of time until now man has always reconized the struggle between good and evil.

It doesn't mean that Sat was a bad god no that the Pharaoh was a god.

Why should the Catholics be called pagan because they teach about satan?

Their infallible acknowledged to "compromising" with pagans. A fallen angel Satan/the devil are not mentioned in the scriptures.

The Egyptians did not invent the Devil.

Well, Christianity seldom teaches that God alone kills or create evil; that nothing exists to take man out of His control.

 

[Pelaides]

Satan in the bible is described as a Cherub (giant 18 foot tall angels)perfect in wisdom and beauty.

The following verses explain everything, Ezekiel28:12-14, Isaiah14:12-14, Matthew4:1-11

The egyptian god you are talking about was named Set not sat

 

[jerzy]

Satan in the bible is described as a Cherub (giant 18 foot tall angels)perfect in wisdom and beauty.

Do you often have such dreams?

The following verses explain everything, Ezekiel28:12-14, Isaiah14:12-14

Wishfull thinking.

Satan is not even mentioned there.

The egyptian god you are talking about was named Set not sat.

Thanks.

 

[Eltanin]

I think I understand what you are getting at Jerzy, but the idea of Satan being "The" devil is not necessarily Egyptian...

The Judaic tradition speaks of satans very often throughout their literature. There was never a solidified idea of one Devil leading the rest until awhile (nearly 200 years) after Jesus ascended...

'Satan' in Hebrew means 'adversary'... An adversary could never come against someone unless God willed it, and in fact, most of the time they were sent from God... Even the serpent, according to the Judaic literature I have read was sent by God to tempt Adam and Eve's free will, and not a demon or devil as Christians believe...

So where do we get the idea of the Devil aka Satan aka Lucifer....

Well, the idea hit mainstream with Origen, but he probably got the idea from Turtullian... or possibly the other way around... almost 200 years after Jesus...

It was a connect the dots scenario, and it was the ideas of these men who had an early influence on how the scriptures should be interpreted that set the idea of a sub-deity to rival God into motion...
... and I would say that that would be a particular instance where men messed up the Message... They took focus away from the teachings of Christ, and directed it towards the idea of Christ's rivals...

I remember reading the quote from Gregory I, and compromise, but he was not the only early church official to do so... And many of the traditions within the church are traditions that were carry-overs from the polytheistic culture of Rome....

Many of the Scriptures we reference as proof of one devil are actually verses talking of unidentified adversaries, or men... And much of the tradition we have on who demons and devils are do not come from the Bible... Many of the traditions we have about demons come from ideas passed on from Christianity's predecessor, Judaism... and I think Judism got it right when it didn't assign all of the world's corruption almost single-handedly to one entity...

 

[jerzy]

The Judaic tradition speaks of satans very often throughout their literature. There was never a solidified idea of one Devil leading the rest until awhile (nearly 200 years) after Jesus ascended...

The solidified idea.

Hmmmmm!!!!

That speaks volumes.

By the way, did the Jews mention in their literature that Satan was a fallen angel?

They were warned against mixing up with pagans.

There was no warning of a fallen angel.

'Satan' in Hebrew means 'adversary'...

Why then it is transliterated 19 out of 27 times in the OT?

An adversary could never come against someone unless God willed it, and in fact, most of the time they were sent from God... Even the serpent, according to the Judaic literature I have read was sent by God to tempt Adam and Eve's free will, and not a demon or devil as Christians believe...

No contest.

So where do we get the idea of the Devil aka Satan aka Lucifer....

Well, the idea hit mainstream with Origen, but he probably got the idea from Turtullian... or possibly the other way around... almost 200 years after Jesus...

It was a connect the dots scenario, and it was the ideas of these men who had an early influence on how the scriptures should be interpreted that set the idea of a sub-deity to rival God into motion...
... and I would say that that would be a particular instance where men messed up the Message... They took focus away from the teachings of Christ, and directed it towards the idea of Christ's rivals...

I remember reading the quote from Gregory I, and compromise, but he was not the only early church official to do so... And many of the traditions within the church are traditions that were carry-overs from the polytheistic culture of Rome....

Many of the Scriptures we reference as proof of one devil are actually verses talking of unidentified adversaries, or men... And much of the tradition we have on who demons and devils are do not come from the Bible... Many of the traditions we have about demons come from ideas passed on from Christianity's predecessor, Judaism... and I think Judism got it right when it didn't assign all of the world's corruption almost single-handedly to one entity...

All I can say is that there doesn't a supernatural power opposing God.

All power (the word God means power/strength) is of God.

 

[Eltanin]

...
By the way, did the Jews mention in their literature that Satan was a fallen angel?
.....
Why then it is transliterated 19 out of 27 times in the OT?
...

The Judaic tradition does mention fallen angels, but not one angel as a more powerful figure head over the others...

The word Satan is not a name, it is a title in the OT... an angel of God, who is doing God's will can be a satan to a person... it means adversary, or challenger...

There are still demons and fallen angels, but many times when we face challenges in our lives, it is because of natural consequences we face do to decisions we make of our own free will; or the fact that we live in an imperfect and temporary world... We don't need demons to come against us to tempt us with our selfish weaknesses, we are perfectly capable of choosing to do wrong without a devil on our shoulder... We need to be aware that there are spiritual powers that can come against us, but we also need to be aware that they are not as powerful as we give them credit for.

As for pagan association, unless your ancestors were Jewish, then they were probably pagan... Pagan was not just a set of religions, it was a set cultures, just as Judaism was a duel in nature. You aren't going to completely separate from an old culture, just because you adopt a new religion... This is where the Holy Spirit becomes absolutely necessary... A convert is going to have habits of culture along with spiritual habits. The Holy Spirit is instrumental in separating the chaff of the old life from the wheat that prepared them for the Spirit.... We need to remember that before we condemn all practices that don't fit into the box we as Christians have made.

We do need to be aware of the things that direct our attention away from God, though.

 

[jerzy]

The word Satan is not a name, it is a title in the OT... an angel of God, who is doing God's will can be a satan to a person... it means adversary, or challenger...

Angel of God not a fallen angel opposing God.

There are still demons...

In the OT they are useless man made idols of wood. Appears four times.

...and fallen angels...

Text, please.

We need to be aware that there are spiritual powers that can come against us...

Like the evil spirit of God who came upon Saul.

...but we also need to be aware that they are not as powerful as we give them credit for.

You know it from....?

We do need to be aware of the things that direct our attention away from God, though.

Sure:

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[Eltanin]

You might look at Matthew 25:41... One of the few NT dots that have given rise to the idea of 'The' Devil... it talks of Hell being for the devil and his angels... but the original Greek word, διάbολος ...or diabolos... is actually an adjective... Basically, the passage can be interpreted as hell being prepared for the angels of false accusation...

 

[Pelaides]

Isaiah14:12"How art thou fallen from heaven ,O lucifer,son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground,which didst weaken the nations".

Ezeikel28:14"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;and i have set thee so:thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire".

Job2:2"And the Lord said unto satan.from whence comest thou?and satan answered the Lord and said,From going to and fro in the earth,and from walking up and down in it."

 

[jerzy]

You might look at Matthew 25:41... One of the few NT dots that have given rise to the idea of 'The' Devil... it talks of Hell being for the devil and his angels... but the original Greek word, διάbολος ...or diabolos... is actually an adjective... Basically, the passage can be interpreted as hell being prepared for the angels of false accusation...

Mt 25:41 in no way proves that Satan or the devil is a fallen angel.

Isaiah14:12"How art thou fallen from heaven ,O lucifer,son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground,which didst weaken the nations".

Ezeikel28:14"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;and i have set thee so:thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire".

Could you, please highlight the part stating that Satan is a fallen angel?

Job2:2"And the Lord said unto satan.from whence comest thou?and satan answered the Lord and said,From going to and fro in the earth,and from walking up and down in it."

Could you, please highlight the part stating who Satan is?

 

[JosyWales]

I cant believe I am even going to reply to this thread but I thought I would throw in some verses.

Before I do tho, I should point out to Jerzy that any "proof' he shows here is simply some stuff from the Catholics. I think that should speak for itself. I mean, I like Catholics, but anyone who says that the Bible should not be trusted completely has a bit of a problem. However:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Kind of sounds like a conversation to me. I thought it takes two to do that.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Again sounds like a person being spoken to.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Here the Devil not only demands worship to himself, but is identified by Jesus as being Satan and an individual entity.

2Cr 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Here we see that Satan can transform himself, perhaps even into the creature this poster originally referred to. After all, Satan surely was around during the Egyption times. Who knows what he called himself back then.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Pretty explainatory I think. Not much wiggle room here.

True, the term "Satan" can mean a force or some other abstract thing, but the fact that there is a being who holds this title (if you wish to call it that) exists as a persona, is pretty evident.

Im still having trouble believing I even answered this post. :) We all must be pretty bored.

 

[jerzy]

JosyWales

Job 1:6

, Zec 3:2

Kind of sounds like a conversation to me. I thought it takes two to do that.

Who is Satan?

Mat 4:8

- Mat 4:10


Here the Devil not only demands worship to himself, but is identified by Jesus as being Satan and an individual entity.

Who is he?

When was the last time you fasted for 40 days? What would you think knowing that God always hears you?

2Cr 11:14

Here we see that Satan can transform himself, perhaps even into the creature this poster originally referred to. After all, Satan surely was around during the Egyption times. Who knows what he called himself back then.

Do you remember who the righter of 2 Cor was?

Do you remember what the Jewish leaders think about the "light" of Jesus?

Rev 12:9 And Rev 20:2

Pretty explainatory I think. Not much wiggle room here.

Pity you failed to read from Re 12:3 & answer who that great red dragon is.

True, the term "Satan" can mean a force or some other abstract thing, but the fact that there is a being who holds this title (if you wish to call it that) exists as a persona, is pretty evident.

Like this one?

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Eltanin]

Isaiah 14:12 is a reference to a man and a king...

If you read Ezekiel 28 a few lines before 14, you find that the prophet is addressing a man and a king of Tyre

The original language of Job, the word which we read as satan in English was the improper form... Satan in Job is a generic word for adversary...

The reason that the prophets might address kings as though they were addressing something originally from Heaven would be found in tradition older than Christianity... The Judaic tradition concerning angels is far more explanatory than anything we have in traditional Christianity.... According to Judaic tradition, just as an individual has a guardian angels, cities have angels, and nations have angels...

.... But anyways... we find none of this in depth information in the Bible, so it would be pointless to present it in this forum...

Mt 25:41 in no way proves that Satan or the devil is a fallen angel.

That was my point...

But to further my point it shows that there are angels who are not in God's good graces... angels of false accusation... and when we talk of demons or fallen angels, we are referring to angels that are not on God's good side.

There are many angels that are not on the side of light for whatever reason, the Bible isn't really clear on it.

Yes, there are many instances of adversaries tempting people and God in the Bible, but it was never originally indicated that each such instance points to the same one...

As to Jesus' temptation in Matthew, it would stand that He must be tempted as Adam was tempted, so that Jesus could succeed where Adam failed... The adversary in Matthew may or may not be the same adversary that was in the Garden, but I am of the mind that both instances, the events were deliberately set in motion by God.