SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

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Eternally Grateful

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Your Baptist church MUST ignore the context of 1, 11, 111 John in order to teach the false doctrine of OSAS.
Your church must ignore the whole of the word to preach we are under law not under grace.

PS. I am not baptist,.
The alien sinner must repent to get saved,
Acts 17:30,
- ....but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

Acts is the unsaved alien sinners commandment to repent.

Who is 1, 2 and 3 John written to?

Answer: born again christians!!!!

Therefore it MUST be christians, that are being told by John to repent/confess their sins in order to continue walking in the light where the cleansing of sins take place.


Conclusion,
The new testament teaches alien sinners must repent of sins to get saved.
And born again christians who sin MUST repent in order to stay saved.
lol. Your right, One will not come to faith in christ UNTIL they repent.

Until they repent. they are under law.. and condemned by that law.

You want to put them back under law after they repent.. That;s not what Christ came for
 

Titus

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1John 3:9,
- No one born of God makes a practise of sinning because Gods life is in them so they cant keep on sinning because he has been born of God
ESV

1John 3:9,
- no one who has been born of God practices sin because His seed remains in him and he cannot continually sin because he has been born of God
NASB

John never taught a born again christian cannot sin or cannot live in sin.
Otherwise John contradicts himself.
This doctrine disproves itself by contradicting John's message in 1John 1:9
 

Runningman

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God has judged sin already-The wages sin pays is death, thus cannot be rejudged for those sins at the resurrection.-Romans 6:7= One is acquitted of all sin at death. Thus during the resurrection, one gets a 2nd chance to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Its why satan will be loosed for a little while to test their faith, its says some still follow him and are destroyed, the rest get their names written in Gods book of life, it would be senseless to raise the dead to tell them i will kill you because you were bad--What a loving provision by the true almighty God( YHWH(Jehovah) and his king( Jesus)
Eternal suffering is symbolic, not literal.
A person's sins are judged on an individual basis. Eternal life is a future, post-resurrection, event which none aside from Jesus have experienced. Judgement of sin is also after the resurrection. The final judgement is all works based.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.
 

Titus

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lol. Your right, One will not come to faith in christ UNTIL they repent.

Until they repent. they are under law.. and condemned by that law
Confusion.

The law an alien sinner is under today is the new testament law of Christ not the old testament law of Moses.

It is Christs law that teaches they must repent , Acts 17:30.
Acts 17:30 is new testament gospel of Jesus Christ not Jewish law!!!
 

Titus

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A person's sins are judged on an individual basis. Eternal life is a future, post-resurrection, event which none aside from Jesus have experienced. Judgement of sin is also after the resurrection. The final judgement is all works based.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.
What church are you a member of?
 

Titus

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The final judgement is all works based.
If it is all works based then no Grace can be given on judgment day.

All means ALL!!!!

All works excludes anything else.

If you cannot see this then I cannot help you friend.
 

Runningman

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If it is all works based then no Grace can be given on judgment day.

All means ALL!!!!

All works excludes anything else.

If you cannot see this then I cannot help you friend.
Everyone get's judgement in the end. Grace and mercy are for those who were using their time doing good and therefore they get eternal life. Your eternal life is in the "age to come." You haven't actually laid a hold of it yet. If you had already been given eternal life, you wouldn't die, but you will. Therefore, your judgement will result in a verdict. This is something Jesus and all of his disciples taught.

Romans 2
7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Luke 18
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Luke 20
34Jesus answered, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Confusion.

The law an alien sinner is under today is the new testament law of Christ not the old testament law of Moses.

It is Christs law that teaches they must repent , Acts 17:30.
Acts 17:30 is new testament gospel of Jesus Christ not Jewish law!!!
lol

No I am not confused.

If we sin, we are condemned.

We are cursed.

Jesus took the curse for us. If we have repented and recieved his gift of life. we are saved.

If not. we are still cursed..
 

Titus

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Therefore, your judgement will result in a verdict. This is something Jesus and all of his disciples taught.
If my judgment is ALL works based then how will I be saved?
You are teaching judgment day is all works no grace.
The logical conclusion of your interpretation of scriptures is on judgment day all will be saved or lost based on the good works or the works of the devil that we did here.
Since all my works are what saves or condems me. I do not need Christs shed blood to save me, we all save ourselves by earning eternal life by working for it.

You are teaching salvation through earning it yourself apart from Christ's shed blood.

James 2:12-13,
- so speak and so do as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty
- for he shall have judgment without  mercy what hath showed no mercy
And mercy rejoiceth AGAINST JUDGMENT

James is teaching that the only way to be saved in judgement is for God to have mercy on us.
If we all are not judged with mercy which comes from Gods grace.
Then we will all be judged based on nothing but our works.
All will be lost because no one has worked off their sin debt.

Do you know Jesus' death is caused by your sins?
Those sins are charged against you as a debt.
Do you think you can pay off a man losing His life because of your sins?

You can work for all eternity and you will never pay off your killing of Jesus Christ.
You realize you put Jesus on the cross?
You are just as guilty for the murder of Jesus as the Jews are!!!

It is only by mercy according to James that judgment will not be rendered as life for a life.
That is true justice you are deserving of if God does not show mercy/grace on you.

Gods mercy is what will free you against the righteous judgment you deserve on judgment day.
No amount of good works can earn a mans life that was taken because of your sins!!!

The wicked will receive the just sentence on judgment day.
The righteous will be pardoned of their killing of Christ by Gods mercy and Grace.
Works alone cannot make you just for the killing of Jesus that you are held guilty of.

You are teaching the gospel of meriting salvation/eternal life by working.
The gospel of "if I'm a good enough person in this life God will save me"

This gospel teaches one must do more good works than evil works in this life to merit ones eternal life.
God does not save us on judgment by counting the amount of good works verses sinful works.
If the good works add up greater than the sinful, we are then saved.
It does not work this way friend.

Think of this?
A old wicked man who lived the most wicked life had great sin.
But one day a saint shared with him the saving power of the good news.
The old wicked man repented and gave His life to Christ by believing the gospel and obeying its commandments to be saved.

The next day the man died.
In judgement how many wicked deeds will be counted?
How many good deeds will be counted?
Will he go to heaven or hell based on his good works?
He's going to hell if your teaching is judgment being all works based!!!

You cannot do enough to work off you sin that caused Christ His life.

This is impossible because all are guilty of the death of Christ.
No amount of good deeds can sway the scales towards eternal life.
No amount of work can pay for a mans life!!!

Works only cause God by His choice to have mercy on the individual and as a free gift give him his grace.

We are saved by grace not by meritorious works.
Works only give us access to Gods grace.
Without faith no grace.
Without works no grace.
Works are involved in our salvation but they can do nothing apart from Gods mercy, grace.

Titus 3:4-5,
- but after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His MERCY HE SAVED US by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Paul teaches our good works is not WHEN Jesus first had mercy on us.
- but after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared(now Paul is going to tell you Gods love/mercy/grace appeared before our good works)
- not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us

We can see here that Grace, love, mercy is the reason God saved us but this does not mean God does not require works to receive His mercy.

Paul is not teaching no works are involved in our salvation as the faith onlyist's claim.
Paul teaches God chose to save us by mercy not because we choose to do good works.

Notice that the washing of regeneration here is a work of baptism.
Titus 3:5,
- washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Therefore once again to receive Gods mercy, grace we must obey Gods commandments and submit to baptism,
Acts 10:48,
- and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

Paul tells Titus Jesus' mercy is not soley based on our good works.
But we must obey God by working His commandments to receive His grace.

Jesus had mercy on us before we ever did any good works.
But again Jesus does not impart grace to those who refuse to believe which is a work, John 6:28-29.

2Timothy 1:9,
- who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and GRACE which was given us IN CHRIST Jesus before the world began

Notice that Gods mercy and grace was before the world began.
His mercy on us was not because we started doing good works.
God had mercy on us when we were servants of satan. When we were lovers of this world living in sin, against God.

But again works play a part in His grace because today Gods plan of salvation is based on the condition that you believe and obey His commandments.
Only then does God grant you salvation by His free gift of grace.

Notice the later verse in 2Timothy 1:9,
.... which was given to us IN CHRIST JESUS

Gods grace is only given to those IN Christ Jesus.
No one outside of Christ receives Gods grace.

The only way to get into Christ according to Jesus' gospel is by faith and obedient works to His new testament commandments.

Go back to Titus 3:5,
-... washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

That is the faith that works the commandment to be washed in the waters of baptism where we receive the cleansing blood of Christ.

Galatians 3:26-27,
- for we are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
For as many of you have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ

By the work of baptism we get IN Christ.
This is where we receive Gods grace.

All spiritual blessings are IN Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
... who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places IN Christ

Both the saint and the alien sinner deserves eternal death based on the works we have done in this life.
God requires us to do good works to recieve His mercy but ultimately it is Gods Unmerited favor that will save us in judgement,
James 2:12-13,
- ... and mercy rejoiceth against judgment
 

Titus

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lol

No I am not confused.

If we sin, we are condemned.

We are cursed.

Jesus took the curse for us. If we have repented and recieved his gift of life. we are saved.

If not. we are still cursed..
Yes you are very confused.
You don't know what law is in force when you quote different verses in the new testament.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Yes you are very confused.
You don't know what law is in force when you quote different verses in the new testament.
No,

I am not confused

John 3: 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Thats the gospel.

There is no law period.
 

Titus

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No,

I am not confused

John 3: 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Thats the gospel.

There is no law period.
Um, wow!!!
Your church is very ignorant Sir!!!

He who believes in Him is not condemned....

Do you not realize it is Gods new testament law that you MUST believe in Jesus?

No law then no commandments!!!
Do you not understand that commandments are laws?
We are commanded to believe.

Romans 10:9-10,
- that if thou will confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hathed raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved

That is a command not optional.
You get commands from law.

Galatians 6:2,
- bear one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ
 

Eternally Grateful

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Um, wow!!!
Your church is very ignorant Sir!!!

He who believes in Him is not condemned....

Do you not realize it is Gods new testament law that you MUST believe in Jesus?

No law then no commandments!!!
Do you not understand that commandments are laws?
We are commanded to believe.

Romans 10:9-10,
- that if thou will confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hathed raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved

That is a command not optional.
You get commands from law.

Galatians 6:2,
- bear one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ
My church?

What is it with people talking about my church?

Jesus said whoever believes is not condemned, He said they will never perish, they will live forever.

Do you believe jesus or not?
 

Titus

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My church?

What is it with people talking about my church?

Jesus said whoever believes is not condemned, He said they will never perish, they will live forever.

Do you believe jesus or not?
Sure I believe Jesus.
I dont believe your misinterpretation of Jesus' teaching.

This did not even attempt to explain your strange doctrine of no law today despite believing in Jesus being new testament law a commandment of God.

I'm seriously considering coming to your local church in person.
Where is it located, what is the address?
 
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Titus

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1Corinthians 9:21,
- to them that are without law as without law being not without law to God but under the law of Christ
that I might gain them that are without law
 
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Runningman

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If my judgment is ALL works based then how will I be saved?
You are teaching judgment day is all works no grace.
The logical conclusion of your interpretation of scriptures is on judgment day all will be saved or lost based on the good works or the works of the devil that we did here.
Since all my works are what saves or condems me. I do not need Christs shed blood to save me, we all save ourselves by earning eternal life by working for it.
Those who do good are resurrected to life. Those who do evil are resurrected to judgement. My belief simply follows what Jesus and the other disciples taught. I understand not everyone believes them, but never the less this is what the said.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

You are teaching salvation through earning it yourself apart from Christ's shed blood.
I believe this is a misunderstanding about what Jesus' sacrifice accomplished. His sacrifice does indeed atone for our sins if we are "walking in the light." This refers to doing good and living righteously.

The sacrifice of Jesus' blood applies conditionally based on what you do. That's why you will be judged based on your works.

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
 

Titus

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John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:10,
- for we must  all appear before the judgement seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in the body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad

All means All!!!

Can you explain this?
 
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Keiw

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Romans 6:7,
- for he that is dead is freed from sin

Paul is teaching how one is born again with Christ in water baptism here in chapter 6 of Romans.

You are ignoring the context or do not know the context!!!

Romans 6:1-4,
- Therefore we are buried with Jesus by baptism into death that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Now the context is being buried with Christ in water baptism as Christ died and was buried and as we Arise out of the water burial known as baptism we are born again in newness of life.

Now continue to read down to verse 7,
- for he that is dead is freed from sin

Paul is teaching that one who has re-enacted the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ by being water baptized into Christ's  death then raised out of that water burial to newness of life,
That In baptism we our old sinful ways are dead and we are reborn again free from sin!!!

Romans 6:7 is not teaching physical death eliminates sin!!!
That is a perversion of the scriptures!!!

Galatians 3:26-27,
- for ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Baptism in water is where we put to death our old sins and Arise out of the watery grave as Christ rose from the dead, born again!!!

Physical death, does nothing for the sins of the unrepentant alien sinner.
I know the reality i shared is truth.
 

Keiw

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A person's sins are judged on an individual basis. Eternal life is a future, post-resurrection, event which none aside from Jesus have experienced. Judgement of sin is also after the resurrection. The final judgement is all works based.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.
In the resurrection some learn and become faithful, others follow satan when loosed for a little while. The ones brought through the tribulation and armageddon on earth have already proved faithful, there would be 0 sense letting satan back out unless it was for the resurrected ones to prove themselves either way. Its a magnificent loving provision from a God of love and mercy to give a second chance. Afterall no one in the ot days knew Jesus. Few now do.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Sure I believe Jesus.
I dont believe your misinterpretation of Jesus' teaching.

This did not even attempt to explain your strange doctrine of no law today despite believing in Jesus being new testament law a commandment of God.

I'm seriously considering coming to your local church in person.
Where is it located, what is the address?
My teaching is simple

But he who RECIEVES HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God

As moses lifted the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted up that whoever believes will NEVER DIE. and they will LIVE FOREVER. for God so loved the world. he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES will NEVER PERISH but LIVE FOREVER

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”