SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[Keiw]

God is called by many names.

God has 1 name=YHWH(Jehovah)
Ton Theon translates-The God--When plain Theon is in the same paragraph=god.

 

[Truthnightmare]

God has 1 name=YHWH(Jehovah)
Ton Theon translates-The God--When plain Theon is in the same paragraph=god.

It’s YHVH no “W”

 

[Keiw]

It’s YHVH no “W”

Thats what i believe as well, Yet the scholars are not 100% sure.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Thats what i believe as well, Yet the scholars are not 100% sure.

Yea… but we can lean more towards YHVH due to the acrostics found in Ester. You will notice that no W is present…

​

​ THE FIRST ACROSTIC (1:20)​ is formed by the initial letters, for the event was initial; and the name is spelled backward because Jehovah is turning back and overruling the counsels of man. The whole clause reads as follows; the words forming the Acrostic being put in italic type:— "And when the king's decree which he shall make, shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall giveto their husbands honor, both to great and small." The four words we give, 1st, in the Hebrew type (with the Majuscular letters at the beginning of each word); 2nd, with the Transliteration; and 3rd, in English paraphrase, reproducing the sentence in the word LORDwith the initial letters backward:—​ 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 Hi' Vekal Hannashim Yittenu. 1 2 3 4 it and-all the-wives shall-give "Due Respect Our Ladies​ shall give to their husbands, both to great and small."​ THE SECOND ACROSTIC (5:4)​ is formed, as before, by the initial letters, for Jehovah is initiating His action; but the name is spelled forwardbecause He is ruling and causing Esther to act; and take the first step, which was to lead up to so great an end. The four words are:​ 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 Yabo' Hammelek VeHaman Hayyom 1 2 3 4 let-come the-king and-Haman this-day "Let Our Royal Dinner​ this day be graced by the king and Haman." The name of Jehovah is read in the invitation, intimating that there would be a fourthat that banquet."​ THE THIRD ACROSTIC (5:13)​ is the beginning of the end; for Haman had gone forth from that banquet "joyful and with a glad heart" (5:9) "that day." Yet it was to be his last. Hence the third Acrostic is formed with the final letters, for the end was approaching; and the name is spelled backward, for Jehovah was overrulingHaman's gladness, and turning back Haman's counsel. The four words are:​ 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 zeH 'eynennV shoveH leY 1 3 2 4 this availeth nothing to-me​ The English may be freely rendered "Yet am I​ saD; foR, nO avaiL​ is all this to me."​ THE FOURTH ACROSTIC (7:7)​ is formed, like the third, by the final letters, for Haman's end had come. But it is spelled forward like the first, for Jehovah was ruling and bringing about the end He had determined. Haman saw there was cause for fear. A fourthis there—Jehovah Himself! And when Esther pleads for her life (7:3), the king asks "Who is he and where is he?" which brings in Jehovah's own ineffable name—the Acrostic of the five final letters spelling in Hebrew "I am" (see the fifth Acrostic below). Esther replies: "The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman." The king, filled with wrath, rises, and goes forth into the palace garden. Haman, filled with fear, rises, "to make request for his life to Esther the queen, for he saw​ that evil was determined against him​ by the king." This was the climax, the end had come. Hence the name is spelled by the final letters:​ 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 kY kalethaH elayV hara'aH 1 4 2 3 that evil was-determined against-him​ Translated, as before, the Acrostic appears in English thus: "For he saw that there was​ eviL tO feaR determineD​ against him by the king."​

​ THE FIFTH ACROSTIC (7:5)​ in this book does not form the name "Jehovah," but the remarkable name E H Y Hwhich means​ "I AM."​ It is noted in some manuscripts by Majuscular letters, which have Massoretic authority (see Appendix 30). The Acrostic is formed by the final letters, and the name is spelled backward. The king asks "Who is he, and where is he, that durst presume in his heart to do so?": that is to say, to sell for destruction Queen Esther and her People. In saying this he unconsciously gives the name of Him who came down to deliver His People out of the hand of Pharaoh, and had then come down to deliver them again out of the hand of Haman, "the Jews' enemy", who, like Pharaoh, sought to destroy the whole nation (compare Exodus 2:23-25 with 3:14, 15). The great enemy of the Messiah—the living Word—was seeking to destroy all hope of His promised coming (Genesis 3:15), and make void the repeated promise of Jehovah. Ahasuerus only pointed to human agency, but his words point us to the Satanic agency which was behind it. The Acrostic is in the final letters of his question "Who is he, and where is he?" Only the great "I am that I am" could know that, and could answer that question. Esther and Mordecai knew the human instrument, but none could know who was directing him but the One Who sees the end from the beginning. The words forming the Acrostic are​ 4 3 2 1 1 2 3 4 hu'E zeH ve'eY zeH 1 2 3 4 [who is] he this [man] and where [is] this [man]​ "who durst presume in his heart to do so": that is to say, to conspire against the life of the Queen and her People. We may English it thus:​ "WherE dwelletH the-enemY that-daretH​ presume in his heart to do this thing?" Thus was the name of the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14presented to the eye, to reveal the fact that He who said ofE H Y H "this is My Name for ever, and this is My Memorial unto all generations" (verse 15), was there to remember His People. Here was a "generation" in Persia who experienced the truth and the power of this Name, as a form​

Just a little something to consider.
Notes from E.W. Bullinger, the only American scholar
Ginsburg allowed to translate the Massorah..

 

[Truthnightmare]

Thats what i believe as well, Yet the scholars are not 100% sure.

I want be on much in the next couple weeks, but I wanted to take a moment and wish you a merry Christmas.. you enjoy this season!

 

[Runningman]

Dichotomy: a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups.

False dichotomy in salvation is the belief that it must be by Grace or it must be by works.
This is a false dichotomy because the two do not contradict!!
They both harmonize perfectly with one another.

The faith only to obtain salvation gospel advocates teach a false gospel of saving faith apart from works.
Likewise faith onlyist teach if works are involved then salvation cannot be by Grace for grace is a free gift.
This is a logical fallacy!

Grace is a free gift but grace is not unconditionally given.
Gods grace is conditional, therefore Gods grace comes with terms.

Must meet Gods terms to receive His gift of unmerited grace,
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

Grace teaches us we must do good works. Paul taught Titus that grace and works go together. They harmonize!
You will hear the faith onlyist use Ephesians 2:8-9 as a "proof text" we are saved without any involvement of works.

First, if salvation is apart from ALL works then we are saved without the work Christ did on the cross,
John 17:4,
- I have glorified You on earth I have finished the  work which You have given Me

Second Paul does teach in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are not saved by works.
But what must be understood is the gospel teaches there are different kinds of works.
To lump ALL works into meritorious works like for instance the commandment to be baptized, turns Jesus' gospel
in Mark 16:15-16 into a gospel that teaches we earn our salvation through a work of baptism.

The kind of works Paul condemns in Ephesians 2:8-9 is works of merit.
Paul also teaches that saving faith is a faith that works,
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith  working through love
1Corinthians 7:19,
- circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what matters

God requires a faith with action/obedience to His commandments in Jesus' gospel.
Only faith that works to meet Gods conditions can receive His grace!!!

When one believes in His gospel 1Corinthians 15:1-4
And obeys the commandments in His gospel,
Can one qualify to receive His unmerited favor.
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus' gospel is by grace through faith when faith is rightly defined.
It is a working/obedient faith that justifies the alien sinner,
James 2:24,
- you see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone

This faith is the only faith that is acceptable unto God,
Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him

God made it very clear that anyone who teaches no obedience/works to God to be saved is not a servant of of God but of the devil, Gen. 3:3-4.
1John 2:2-5,
- and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but also for the whole world, now by this we know we know Him  if we keep His commandments, he who says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

Last we get INTO Christ by baptism,
Galatians 3:26-27,
- for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

No spiritual blessings outside of Christ,
Ephesians 1:3,
- blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Savior who has blessed us with EVERY spiritual blessing  in the heavenly places IN Christ

If not why not?

The final judgement that results in a verdict to eternal life or death in the lake of fire is all works based. It's all about the the good or evil one has done. I don't want to make this long just for conciseness, but I hope this helps.

Romans 2
7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Keiw]

The final judgement that results in a verdict to eternal life or death in the lake of fire is all works based. It's all about the the good or evil one has done. I don't want to make this long just for conciseness, but I hope this helps.

Romans 2
7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

God has judged sin already=The wages sin pays is death. So once one dies has paid in full those wages and God could not re judge them on the same sins already paid for. Romans 6:7 says-one is aquitted of all sin at death.
Thus in the resurrection, Gods loving arrangement is that one gets an opportunity( with no satan influences for the 1000 year reign of Christ)( Rev 20:6) to learn and obey Gods will. Then satan is loosed for a little while to test their faith, those who stand then get their names written in Gods book of life, those who fall get destroyed forever.
There would be no sense for God to raise the wicked from death just to tell them they will die all over again, it wouldn't make any sense. They get a second chance like i have shown above. Truly God is love and merciful.

 

[Runningman]

God has judged sin already=The wages sin pays is death. So once one dies has paid in full those wages and God could not re judge them on the same sins already paid for. Romans 6:7 says-one is aquitted of all sin at death.
Thus in the resurrection, Gods loving arrangement is that one gets an opportunity( with no satan influences for the 1000 year reign of Christ)( Rev 20:6) to learn and obey Gods will. Then satan is loosed for a little while to test their faith, those who stand then get their names written in Gods book of life, those who fall get destroyed forever.
There would be no sense for God to raise the wicked from death just to tell them they will die all over again, it wouldn't make any sense. They get a second chance like i have shown above. Truly God is love and merciful.

Okay, but this is what the Bible says happens. They are resurrected, judged, then sent to the "second death" where they die again. It might seem like a waste of time, but if you look at it from a legal perspective it's actually just and righteous.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[Keiw]

Okay, but this is what the Bible says happens. They are resurrected, judged, then sent to the "second death" where they die again. It might seem like a waste of time, but if you look at it from a legal perspective it's actually just and righteous.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Yes they are judged for what they do after satan is loosed for a little while. Those brought through the tribulation and Armageddon have proved their faith already. Some of the resurrected will stand faithful and get life everlasting, some fall to satan and will be destroyed. Some will learn and do good, some will not.

 

[Titus]

The final judgement that results in a verdict to eternal life or death in the lake of fire is all works based. It's all about the the good or evil one has done.

Hello Runningman!!!! I dont believe we've met before, nice to meet you Sir!!!

First I'd like to congratulate you on not believing the most prominent error taught today among believers in Christ, btw, a believer is not necessarily a born again christian, read John 12:42-43.

I'm very thankful that men still exist that have not bought into the theology that you can live in sin and be saved as long as you believed in Jesus one period of time in your lifetime on earth.

It's good you realize God does hold us responsible/ accountable for how we  choose to live our lives.

No doubt the Scriptures teach we must give an answer for the things we have done in this life.
No doubt we  must live according to Gods commandments and our motivation  must be love for God and love for our brethren and our neighbors.

But I hate to disagree with you as my desire is that I can say amen to those who believe in and teach the word of God.

But I must disagree respectfully friend.

The final judgement that results in a verdict to eternal life or death in the lake of fire is all works based. It's all about the the good or evil one has done

Friend, judgement day is a judgement on what we have done in this life, whether we chose to serve God or self.

But salvation cannot be works based.
If salvation is works based, then we would be working our way to heaven.
That is impossible to work yourself to eternal life.

Gods free gift of eternal life is Grace based!!!

Salvation/eternal life is a gift from God.
No amount of good works can get you saved on there own merit.
God must be the one who saves us because just one sin against God makes us unworthy to go to heaven.

Since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,
We all need a perfect sinless Savior to atone for our sins.

When Jesus forgives all our sins He does so by His mercy and Grace.
Not because we worked off our sins by doing "enough" good works.


Even if we sinned only one time in our entire lives here we could not do enough good works to pay off our sin debt to God.

Even if Jesus sinned only once in His life, He could not take away the sins of mankind even with all the good works He did.

Why? Because God is the judge and His  standard for justifying the righteous is  perfection.

The only way salvation could be works based is if we could live perfect sinless lives in good works towards God. Live up to Gods standard which is perfection.

Since this is impossible the only way man can be saved is by God having mercy on sinners and giving us a gift of His Grace.

Gods grace is a free gift because He knows we cannot earn His grace.​

​

The Bible does teach we are saved by our obedience to God.​

But those good works themselves do nothing on there own.​

​

God sees our love for Him by our obdient service to Him. A service of obedient good works that God chooses to have compassion on us and freely give us his unmerited saving Grace.​

​

So the works do not earn salvation or force God to give us His grace.​

Grace is freely given but not without conditions.​

​

These conditions are faith based, faith that takes action and obeys God throughout our lives.​

​

God sees our good works and rewards us. Not because we earned it but because He loves us.He has mercy on us knowing without Christ's perfect sacrifice we are hopeless!!!​

​

No one who does not submit himself to God by loving God and doing good works by faith in Him.​

Will receive Gods free gift of Grace.​

Those selfish wicked people that loved the sinful pleasures of this world rather than loving God do not meet Gods conditions to receive His mercy, grace.​

​

This is how works play there part in salvation.​

Obedience to Gods commandments is what God requires out of everyone.​

If you meet His conditions then He will save you based on His mercy/Grace.​

​

If you reject His offer by refusing to believe and work His commandments, the result is, you do not qualify to receive His free gift, mercy/grace.​

​

No faith no Grace​

No works no Grace.​

​

Works out of love for Him,...God then has compassion on the individual.​

​

The false gospel that one can believe only but not do/work His commandments and be saved is a gospel that has no love for Jesus!!!​

John 14:15,21​

- if ye love Me keep My commandments ​

- he that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me and he that loveth Me shall be loved by My Father and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him​

1John 2:15-17,​

- Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him​

For all that is in the world the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life is not of the Father but is of the world​

And the world passeth away and the lust thereof but he that DOETH(works) the will of God abideth forever​

​

​

This false gospel (faith alone salvation) does not meet Gods requirements therefore one who thinks he is saved by faith alone apart from obedience never received Gods mercy/grace.​

They did not meet His qualifications for His free gift of eternal life.​

​

​

Is it a contradiction to say one must do works to recieve Gods free gift?​

Answer: No!​

​

No amount of good works can pay off our sin debt to God.​

Only Jesus' blood that was a perfect sacrifice can remove our sins.​

​

Free gifts come with terms/conditions/requirements.​

​

Example: A man murders another mans wife.​

He deserves to have his life taken, a life for a life.​

​

But the married man has mercy on the murderer.​

​

So the murderer receives unmerited grace from the husband.​

​

The husband spares the murderers life by giving him a condition to receive His grace/mercy.​

​

He tells the murderer he will make a contract with him, that if he agrees to work for him the rest of his life he will get to keep his life as a free gift.​

​

Could the murderer ever pay off taking the life of the wife?​

No, no amount off work could ever pay off, merit a life.​

​

So the murderer recieved grace based on the condition that he work for the husband.​

​

Free gifts come with conditions yet are still a free gift because they can never be payed off no matter how much work you do.​

​

​

Conclusion: we are judged by our works on judgment day.​

But it is by Grace that God saves us, therefore salvation is Grace based.​

That grace is only received when one meets Gods conditions by working His commandments until the day of judgement.​

Those saved on judgment will not be judged by their sinful works but will be pardoned by the washing of Christ's cleansing blood, sins done in the flesh will be forgotten by God and His mercy/Grace will save us but only those who will recieve this free gift are those who obeyed/worked the commandments of God.​

​

The Biblical plan of salvation is,​

Gods Grace, our Faith and faith acted upon by doing, working Gods commandments.​

Grace,Faith,Works. Biblical salvation.​

​

​

 

[Keiw]

Okay, but this is what the Bible says happens. They are resurrected, judged, then sent to the "second death" where they die again. It might seem like a waste of time, but if you look at it from a legal perspective it's actually just and righteous.

John 5
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

God has judged sin already-The wages sin pays is death, thus cannot be rejudged for those sins at the resurrection.-Romans 6:7= One is acquitted of all sin at death. Thus during the resurrection, one gets a 2nd chance to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Its why satan will be loosed for a little while to test their faith, its says some still follow him and are destroyed, the rest get their names written in Gods book of life, it would be senseless to raise the dead to tell them i will kill you because you were bad--What a loving provision by the true almighty God( YHWH(Jehovah) and his king( Jesus)
Eternal suffering is symbolic, not literal.

 

[Titus]

God has judged sin already-The wages sin pays is death, thus cannot be rejudged for those sins at the resurrection.-Romans 6:7=

Romans 6:7,
- for he that is dead is freed from sin

Paul is teaching how one is born again with Christ in water baptism here in chapter 6 of Romans.

You are ignoring the context or do not know the context!!!

Romans 6:1-4,
- Therefore we are buried with Jesus by baptism into death that like Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Now the context is being buried with Christ in water baptism as Christ died and was buried and as we Arise out of the water burial known as baptism we are born again in newness of life.

Now continue to read down to verse 7,
- for he that is dead is freed from sin

Paul is teaching that one who has re-enacted the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ by being water baptized into Christ's  death then raised out of that water burial to newness of life,
That In baptism we our old sinful ways are dead and we are reborn again free from sin!!!

Romans 6:7 is not teaching physical death eliminates sin!!!
That is a perversion of the scriptures!!!

Galatians 3:26-27,
- for ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Baptism in water is where we put to death our old sins and Arise out of the watery grave as Christ rose from the dead, born again!!!

Physical death, does nothing for the sins of the unrepentant alien sinner.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello Runningman!!!! I dont believe we've met before, nice to meet you Sir!!!

First I'd like to congratulate you on not believing the most prominent error taught today among believers in Christ, btw, a believer is not necessarily a born again christian, read John 12:42-43.

I'm very thankful that men still exist that have not bought into the theology that you can live in sin and be saved as long as you believed in Jesus one period of time in your lifetime on earth.

from one worker to another

A child of God can not live in sin.. Have you not read Johns epistles?

 

[Titus]

A child of God can not live in sin.. Have you not read Johns epistles?

Does your church teach this ?
This is not the first time you have taught this belief.
Paul taught christians can live in sin and be lost,

Note: some believe you can be christian but never saved. This is not taught in the Scriptures.
All christians are born again. You cannot become a christian until God saves you.
Believing you are a christian does not make you one. Only God makes one a christian.

Paul taught christians not to live in sin,
Romans 6:1-2,
- what shall we say then, shall we(born again christians) continue in sin, that grace may abound
God forbid, How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein


Read the whole chapter.
Pay very close attention to verse 12.
Paul says,
V.12
- Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Paul commands that those born again have put off the old man of sin.
Therefore born again christians must not allow sin to once again be practiced in the flesh.

Romans 6:6,
- knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin

Paul warns once you have put off your old sinful lifestyle do not go back to practicing sin as a christian.

Paul believes christians can live in sin, therefore he commands not to go back into the old self of obeying the lusts of the flesh.

John teaches the same.
John teaches born again christians must repent when we fall back into our old self and commit sin.
We must repent else we are no longer cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
Repent means to no longer practice sin.To have a change of mind that results in a change of ones lifestyle.

1John 1:7-9,10
- but  IF we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin
if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
IF we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

John warns saved christians to be in the light where sin is continually cleansed one must repent of his sins!!!

This proves born again christians can live in sin.

1John 3:9,
- whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin for His seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God
KJV

Sounds confusing since John in the first chapter commands children of God to repent of their sins to remain in the light so they might continue to receive Christ's cleansing blood.

Other English translations of the Bible make John's teaching easy to understand.
John in 1John 3:9 is simply saying,
A born again believer does not make sin a willful practise because he has been born again.

John is not teaching it is impossible for a christian to sin.
Nor is John teaching a born again christian is not judged by God for his sin.
Otherwise John contradicts himself, 1John 1:9 = 1John 3:9.

All the saved will be judged by their sin IF they do not repent of their sin by confessing their sins, 1John 1:9
The saved who do confess their sins, on judgment day, they will not be judged by their sinful works because God has already forgiven them of these sins.
They will be judged righteous and justified before God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does your church teach this ?
This is not the first time you have taught this belief.
Paul taught christians can live in sin and be lost,

Note: some believe you can be christian but never saved. This is not taught in the Scriptures.
All christians are born again. You cannot become a christian until God saves you.
Believing you are a christian does not make you one. Only God makes one a christian.

Paul taught christians not to live in sin,
Romans 6:1-2,
- what shall we say then, shall we(born again christians) continue in sin, that grace may abound
God forbid, How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein


Read the whole chapter.
Pay very close attention to verse 12.
Paul says,
V.12
- Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof

Paul commands that those born again have put off the old man of sin.
Therefore born again christians must not allow sin to once again be practiced in the flesh.

Romans 6:6,
- knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin

Paul warns once you have put off your old sinful lifestyle do not go back to practicing sin as a christian.

Paul believes christians can live in sin, therefore he commands not to go back into the old self of obeying the lusts of the flesh.

John teaches the same.
John teaches born again christians must repent when we fall back into our old self and commit sin.
We must repent else we are no longer cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
Repent means to no longer practice sin.To have a change of mind that results in a change of ones lifestyle.

1John 1:7-9,10
- but  IF we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin
if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
IF we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

John warns saved christians to be in the light where sin is continually cleansed one must repent of his sins!!!

This proves born again christians can live in sin.

1John 3:9,
- whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin for His seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God
KJV

Sounds confusing since John in the first chapter commands children of God to repent of their sins to remain in the light so they might continue to receive Christ's cleansing blood.

Other English translations of the Bible make John's teaching easy to understand.
John in 1John 3:9 is simply saying,
A born again believer does not make sin a willful practise because he has been born again.

John is not teaching it is impossible for a christian to sin.
Nor is John teaching a born again christian is not judged by God for his sin.
Otherwise John contradicts himself, 1John 1:9 = 1John 3:9.

All the saved will be judged by their sin IF they do not repent of their sin by confessing their sins, 1John 1:9
The saved who do confess their sins, on judgment day, they will not be judged by their sinful works because God has already forgiven them of these sins.
They will be judged righteous and justified before God.

This is called interpreting a passage to fit your belief

John did not say a child of God can not sin

He said they can not LIVE IN SIN.

Huge difference.

why do you want to put people under law?

 

[Titus]

This is called interpreting a passage to fit your belief

No, I have no interest in teaching my own ideas on any religious matter!
I only want to follow what Gods word teaches. I let the word interpret itself.

John did not say a child of God can not sin

He said they can not LIVE IN SIN

Wrong,
If a child of God cannot live in sin then NO REPENTANCE IS REQUIRED!!!!

John teaches the child of God must repent of sins in order to stay in the light.
The light being Christ Jesus. Only if the child of God repent can he continue to be in the light of Christ where all sins are cleansed.

Since a christians sins will not be cleansed if they do not confess their sins.
This logically proves a born again christian who does not obey 1John 1:9 will be LIVING IN SIN!!!

1John 1:5-10,
- this then is the message which we have heard of Him and declare unto you, that God is light
and in Him is no darkness at all
If we(born again christian's) say that we have fellowship with God and walk in darkness(live in unrepentant sin seperated from God) we lie and do not the truth

- but IF we walk in the light(with God) as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin

- IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

-IF we say that we(born again christian's ) have not sinned we make God a liar and the truth is not in us

John teaches that the child of God can walk in darkness by living in unrepentant sins.

why do you want to put people under law?

I dont want to do anything to anybody!!!!

I follow Gods instruction and you should also.

God puts His people under His new testament law i.e. the law of Christ.
We are not under the old testament law of Moses. Not even Jews are under the old law today.

If no law today then there are no commandments in the new testament gospel of Christ.
If no law then there is no way anyone can commit sin.
Your belief makes no sense that we are not under law today.

Romans 4:15,
- because the law(old Mosaic law) worketh wrath for where no law is there IS NO SIN

People sin today therefore there must be Gods law today!!
This law all are under today is not the old law but the new,
Galatians 6:2,
- bear one another's burdens and so fullfil the law of Christ

Sin today proves there is law.
As Paul explained without law sin cannot exist.

James 1:25,
- but whosoever looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein he not being a forgetful hearer but a  doer of the work this man shall be blessed in his deed(work)

Christ's law is perfect because it has the power to liberate, liberty
Moses old law was the law of death because it could not save only condem

Romans 8:2,
- for the law of the Spirit(law of Christ, new testament) of life in Christ Jesus hath
made us free
from the law(old Mosaic law) of sin and death

Two laws Paul taught!!
The law of the Spirit that makes us free it gives us liberty because it is perfect.

And the law of death, because it only condemns those of sin, it has no power to free or liberate one from their sins.

We are under the new law.
You are teaching a false doctrine that goes against the Bible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, I have no interest in teaching my own ideas on any religious matter!
I only want to follow what Gods word teaches. I let the word interpret itself.

then why don't you

Wrong,
If a child of God cannot live in sin then NO REPENTANCE IS REQUIRED!!!!

John said a child of God can not live in sin.

If you have not repented your not saved.. So you need to repent to get saved before you can be a person who is changed by God who no longer lives in sin

 

[Ritajanice]

1 John 3:9 KJV​

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Titus]

If you have not repented your not saved.. So you need to repent to get saved before you can be a person who is changed by God who no longer lives in sin

Your Baptist church MUST ignore the context of 1, 11, 111 John in order to teach the false doctrine of OSAS.

The alien sinner must repent to get saved,
Acts 17:30,
- ....but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent

Acts is the unsaved alien sinners commandment to repent.

Who is 1, 2 and 3 John written to?

Answer: born again christians!!!!

Therefore it MUST be christians, that are being told by John to repent/confess their sins in order to continue walking in the light where the cleansing of sins take place.


Conclusion,
The new testament teaches alien sinners must repent of sins to get saved.
And born again christians who sin MUST repent in order to stay saved.

 

[Titus]

1 John 3:9 KJV​

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I guess you believe as Eternally Grateful that child of God cannot sin?

This doctrine is a license to sin against God.
It is wicked and from the devil