A Third Jewish Temple is Required

[Davy]

"Just the facts ma'am."

1. The Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 events of ending the daily sacrifice and placing an IDOL abomination inside the temple causing it to become spiritually desolate, was prophesied for the END by Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Mark 13:14-19
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
KJV

2. The above Scripture proof by Lord Jesus Himself, reveals that "abomination of desolation" IDOL event is reserved for the very end of this world, for the time of "great tribulation" that He warned about in those verses also.

3. The confirming of the "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is the "league" of Daniel 11:21-23 which the "vile person" will make at the end of this world with a small group of orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. That "league" is the confirming of the 'old covenant' among the orthodox Jews at the end of this world, meaning re-establishing the old covenant worship among the unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem. That "vile person" represents the final Antichrist in Jerusalem at the very end of this present world.

4. The orthodox Jews believe that when Messiah returns, the Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifices will be re-established, and that must include a new temple in Jerusalem.

5. Old covenant worship involved the daily sacrifices, and worship inside a Jewish temple, in Jerusalem. That is what MUST be re-instituted for the end among the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem in order for the "abomination of desolation" prophecy to be fulfilled.

6. Because Jesus referred to this Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 "abomination of desolation" prophecy as a SIGN in His Olivet discourse, and linked it with the time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world, this means these events will happen in the FINAL generation on earth that will see Jesus' future return.

6. Because the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in Daniel involves a STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE, with an IDOL ABOMINATION placed in it, this means there will... be a 3rd Jewish Temple built in Jerusalem in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled.

The Cornerstone Is Ready

The event of the cornerstone started the fulfillment of the end-time prophecy of Isaiah and Micah

www.templemountfaithful.org

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Just the facts ma'am."

Let's ensure these are really "facts," or just opinions?

1. The Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 events of ending the daily sacrifice and placing an IDOL abomination inside the temple causing it to become spiritually desolate, was prophesied for the END by Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 and Mark 13...

This is an opinion. Many of the early Church Fathers viewed Dan 9.27 as having to do with the Roman Army defiling the holy city of Jerusalem. A pagan Roman army laying siege to the holy city was a form of desolating the temple. Destroying the temple was itself a "desolation."

Comparing this passage with Dan 11.31 conflates the actions of the Roman Army in Jerusalem with the activities of Antiochus 4, who both committed sacrilege against the temple and desolated the Jewish People. These are the facts, as I see them. Since there are differences of opinion on these "facts," I'm calling them "opinions."

Mark 13:14-19
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:...
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
KJV

2. The above Scripture proof by Lord Jesus Himself, reveals that "abomination of desolation" IDOL event is reserved for the very end of this world, for the time of "great tribulation" that He warned about in those verses also.

Again, these are not "facts" but opinions. Most of the early Church Fathers viewed the Olivet Discourse in a historicist way, seeing the fall of Jerusalem as beginning in 70 AD and continuing through a Jewish punishment in exile for the rest of the age.

The Jewish Diaspora thus became the "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People, afflicting both the guilty and the innocent, both ungodly Jews and saintly Christians. The fact this Tribulation continues until the end of the age does not at all mean it takes place *only* at the end of the age. On the contrary, it began in Jesus' generation.

Again, we are not talking about "facts" here, but about opinions. There are legitimate differences of opinion on these matters.

3. The confirming of the "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 is the "league" of Daniel 11:21-23 which the "vile person" will make at the end of this world with a small group of orthodox Jews in Jerusalem. That "league" is the confirming of the 'old covenant' among the orthodox Jews at the end of this world, meaning re-establishing the old covenant worship among the unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem. That "vile person" represents the final Antichrist in Jerusalem at the very end of this present world.

This isn't a "fact" either. I can't think of anything more controversial than what the "covenant" here is? I've held it to be the covenant of Christ, like so many of the Church Fathers did. But I don't hold to this position presently, because like you, I see the covenant belongs, in context, to a pagan ruler.

However, unlike Dispensationalists I do not think this "covenant" refers to the Antichrist. The context of Dan 9, as I said earlier, is the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So this cannot be about Antichrist. And so, I think the covenant is something made by the Roman ruler.

It may be that he agree with the Jews to allow them some time to worship under the temple while the Messiah is alive. But that would be more like a "decree" than a "confirmation."

Or, more likely, it may refer to the fact that the Roman ruler unwittingly "confirms" God's plan to complete the 70 Week period by allowing Christ freedom to minister for 3.5 years before cutting him off, and thus shutting down temple sacrifices and offerings under the Old Covenant.

In this sense, "confirming a covenant" does not have to be an intentional act, nor a decree. It is just doing something that allows God to complete the 70th Week as He promised.

4. Old covenant worship involved the daily sacrifices, and worship inside a Jewish temple, in Jerusalem. That is what MUST be re-instituted for the end among the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem.

This is not a "fact." In Dan 9, the temple Daniel is praying for is consigned to destruction in the time of Messiah, who is cut off, annulling temple sacrifices and offerings.

Sorry, you may legitimately embrace your own theories. But since there are also legitimate differences of opinion, I'd have to call your so-called "facts" just "opinions."

 

[Jay Ross]

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
. . . . . . .

Mark 13:14-19
14 [/COLOR]But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

The "Abomination of destruction" is a reference to Satan Himself. Satan is the desolator, the one who makes desolate spiritually.

Daniel 9:27b: And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator.

Now in Daniel 9:24b we have these words:

Daniel 9:24b: - {And then} to make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint a scared place as being Holy.

We should note that Christ's crucifixion on the cross did not anoint the Temple Mound as being Holy. His death did however make all of Jerusalem Holy because His sacrifice on the cross occurred outside of the city limits of that day.

As such a third temple is not required. However, because many "Christians" and Jews believe that a Third Temple is required to hasten the End Time Event, in our near future they will attempt to build the third temple, but they will not have the means to complete its construction. This attempt to build the Third Temple will cause the Kings of the earth to come against Jerusalem to trample God's sanctuary and His Earthly hosts one last time before the completion of the 2,300-year time span of the Daniel 8 prophecy.

Ever the best of scholars can get it wrong, some of the time and this is just one example where this is true. Many have got the need for the third temple wrong.

Shalom

 

[PinSeeker]

We ~ we ~ are the temple under construction, all of us in Christ. The Architect and Builder is God Himself, and He will bring it to completion.

Grace and peace to all!

 

[Davy]

We ~ we ~ are the temple under construction, all of us in Christ. The Architect and Builder is God Himself, and He will bring it to completion.

Grace and peace to all!

You shouldn't ever compare the spiritual temple which is in Christ via The Spirit with an earthly temple that can be trampled upon or corrupted.

The spiritual temple, of which the foundation is of the Apostles, and prophets, with Christ as The Cornerstone, and we as lively stones, is not related to any 'material' earthly building or location. It's because the spiritual temple is of The Spirit. And Spirit is not of the flesh (John 3:6).

Therefore, those preachers pushing the false doctrine that the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 "temple of God" is the spiritual temple in Christ, are actually preaching falseness from the devil's children. That doctrine is of the devil, and is designed to deceive those in Christ Jesus.

That "temple of God" which Apostle Paul mentioned is a traditional Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem. The Daniel prophecy for the end about the future "abomination of desolation" idol placed in the sanctuary in Jerusalem by the coming Antichrist means a standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem is required for the end.

 

[PinSeeker]

You shouldn't ever compare the spiritual temple which is in Christ via The Spirit with an earthly temple that can be trampled upon or corrupted.

Not sure what would give you the idea I was or am doing any such thing, Davy.

The spiritual temple, of which the foundation is of the Apostles, and prophets, with Christ as The Cornerstone, and we as lively stones, is not related to any 'material' earthly building or location.

Sure.

...the spiritual temple is of The Spirit. And Spirit is not of the flesh (John 3:6).

Right, and we believers are no longer of the flesh ~ which is to say we are no longer dead in sin and thus still sons of the Devil, as Jesus tells those whom He is speaking in John 8... He told them that as unbelievers, they were of their father the devil, and their will was to do the devil's desires. We believers have been born again of the Spirit and are no longer of the flesh; we are a new creation. As Paul says, "we (believers) regard no one..." ~ no other believer ~ "...according to the flesh... (e)ven though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer.... (t)herefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation... (t)he old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:16-17).

Therefore, those preachers pushing the false doctrine that the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 "temple of God" is the spiritual temple in Christ, are actually preaching falseness from the devil's children. That doctrine is of the devil, and is designed to deceive those in Christ Jesus.

Ah, 2 Thessalonians 2:4... a much disagreed upon text... The "temple of God" there as been variously interpreted as the church, the heavenly temple, the Jerusalem temple, and a metaphor for supreme blasphemous arrogance modeled on the activities of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But the context indicates a concrete and observable act of defiance against God rather than actually sitting (presumably on a chair) in an actual building of any kind.

That "temple of God" which Apostle Paul mentioned is a traditional Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem.

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooo... :) See above. :)

Anyway, to what you say here, so when Paul says that in Christ, we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit, he's actually saying we a bunch of rocks and not actual people? Ugh. :) You, know, Davy, when Christ said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," He was ~ as John says there (John talking about Himself, not a building made of stones (or any other building/construction material). So again... see above.

The Daniel prophecy for the end about the future "abomination of desolation" idol placed in the sanctuary in Jerusalem by the coming Antichrist means a standing Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem is required for the end.

Many think so... :) I do agree that there will be a standing temple; it will be made up exclusively of all true Jews, Jews inwardly rather than outwardly (although there will be many outward Jews included), whose circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter, whose praise is not from man but from God (Romans 2:28-29)... :) At present, it's... under construction... :) And it's Architect and Builder is God. This is what Abraham, who by faith obeyed and went to live in the land of promise, was looking forward to (Hebrews 11:8-10).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

Not sure what would give you the idea I was or am doing any such thing, Davy.

What you said in your previous post gave me that impression of course...

You said:
"We ~ we ~ are the temple under construction, all of us in Christ."

This thread topic is specifically about the idea the required 3rd Jewish temple for the end in order to fulfill the Daniel prophecy that Jesus pointed to for the end.

So I wouldn't try to be sly as if you didn't say the above as a counter to the idea of the future 3rd stone Jewish temple in Jerusalem. We are NOT... the "temple of God" which Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 that the coming "man of sin" (Antichrist) will exalt himself as God in.

Right, and we believers are no longer of the flesh ~ which is to say we are no longer dead in sin and thus still sons of the Devil, as Jesus tells those whom He is speaking in John 8... He told them that as unbelievers, they were of their father the devil, and their will was to do the devil's desires. We believers have been born again of the Spirit and are no longer of the flesh; we are a new creation. As Paul says, "we (believers) regard no one..." ~ no other believer ~ "...according to the flesh... (e)ven though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer.... (t)herefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation... (t)he old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:16-17).

Irrelevant to the thread topic about the future 3rd Jewish stone temple to be built in Jerusalem by the orthodox Jews.

Ah, 2 Thessalonians 2:4... a much disagreed upon text... The "temple of God" there as been variously interpreted as the church, the heavenly temple, the Jerusalem temple, and a metaphor for supreme blasphemous arrogance modeled on the activities of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But the context indicates a concrete and observable act of defiance against God rather than actually sitting (presumably on a chair) in an actual building of any kind.

The only ones who disagree with that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 text by Apostle Paul pointing to a literal Jewish stone "temple of God" in Jerusalem which the coming "man of sin" will play God in, are orthodox Jews and their deceived pundits who push lies against what Paul revealed there.

You know, Apostle Paul could have even quoted Christ about that future stone temple in Jerusalem, or from the Book of Daniel about that future stone temple and the "abomination of desolation" that is to be placed inside it for the end of this world. (Matthew 24:15).

Anyway, to what you say here, so when Paul says that in Christ, we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit, he's actually saying we a bunch of rocks and not actual people? Ugh. :) You, know, Davy, when Christ said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," He was ~ as John says there (John talking about Himself, not a building made of stones (or any other building/construction material). So again... see above.

Totally IRRELEVANT once again. The future JEWISH STONE TEMPLE which the orthodox unbelieving Jews are today ready to build, has NOTHING to do with Christ's Spiritual Temple. And any... TRUE CHRISTIAN would well understand that.

For that reason, that you REFUSE to understand that Christ's Temple of The Spirit CANNOT EVER be corrupted by ANY man, nor spirit nor angel, it suggests to me that you have come here pushing support for the JEW's Religion.

Brethren in Christ Jesus:
I would not trust anything this fellow PinSeeker here says. Like Apostle Paul expressed once for one pushing falseness, his word is like a canker.

 

[Davy]

Let's ensure these are really "facts," or just opinions?

This is an opinion. Many of the early Church Fathers viewed Dan 9.27 as having to do with the Roman Army defiling the holy city of Jerusalem. A pagan Roman army laying siege to the holy city was a form of desolating the temple. Destroying the temple was itself a "desolation."

Yours is the actual opinion from men's doctrines. The early Church father Hippolytus never said anything about the Romans having fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of Daniel 9:27. Nor did the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) claim the "abomination of desolation" placing of the idol in a stone temple in Jerusalem having been fulfilled by the Romans, for the 2nd temple burned down before the Romans could seize it; that is what Josephus said. Thus you are just spouting 'your OPINIONS' from men's doctrines in hopes the Biblically illiterate here might believe you.

So NO... the Roman army destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was definitely NOT... what the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in the Book of Daniel is about.

Comparing this passage with Dan 11.31 conflates the actions of the Roman Army in Jerusalem with the activities of Antiochus 4, who both committed sacrilege against the temple and desolated the Jewish People. These are the facts, as I see them. Since there are differences of opinion on these "facts," I'm calling them "opinions."

"Conflates"? The idiotic conflation is yours for your vain attempt to try and change... the actual Daniel "abomination of desolation" prophecy, and what God's Word reveals about it, just because you follow men's the old Reformer's doctrines that tried to claim a pope was the Antichrist. That's their purpose, and your's, for wrongly assigning the "abomination of desolation" event to 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple burned down.

Antiochus IV 'spiritually desolated' the 2nd temple in 165-170 B.C., setting up an IDOL inside it and demanding that all bow in worship to it. That... is what the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 is about. The Daniel 11 events involving the "vile person" is what that event is about. So it's just ignorance to call all that written Scripture just an "opinion". Actually, just 'who' would try and claim those events written in God's Word just represent 'opinion'? Where does that kind of vain thinking originate?

Again, these are not "facts" but opinions. Most of the early Church Fathers viewed the Olivet Discourse in a historicist way, seeing the fall of Jerusalem as beginning in 70 AD and continuing through a Jewish punishment in exile for the rest of the age.

All you are doing is pushing your personal 'opinion' against the Biblical FACTS of written Scripture. This is the SECOND TIME now you are claiming the early Church Fathers agree with you, when they do not. Hippolytus (170-235 A.D.) never said that the Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 "abomination of desolation" prophecy was about the Romans army destroying Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. The Jewish historian Josephus didn't either. Thus you are telling a LIE.

I can't continue conversation with you, which is why you are on my IGNORE list, you are spouting so much FALSE DOCTRINE.

 

[PinSeeker]

What you said in your previous post gave me that impression of course...

Fine, but it was a false impression. And that's your fault, Davy; I was very clear in what I said.

This thread topic is specifically about the idea the required 3rd Jewish temple for the end in order to fulfill the Daniel prophecy that Jesus pointed to for the end.

Yes, I'm well aware. And the misimpressions and misunderstandings regarding such. Yes.

So I wouldn't try to be sly as if you didn't say the above as a counter to the idea of the future 3rd stone Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Okay, good, but you might try being at least a little more understanding of what is clearly being said. :)

We are NOT... the "temple of God" which Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4...

Agree; he's talking about different things entirely at the end of Ephesians 2 as compared to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Sure.

Irrelevant to the thread topic about the future 3rd Jewish stone temple to be built in Jerusalem by the orthodox Jews.

It's entirely relevant, in that it states the true nature of the final Jewish stone temple ~ consisting of true Jews, among which will be people of every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ of God.

The only ones who disagree with that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 text by Apostle Paul pointing to a literal Jewish stone "temple of God" in Jerusalem which the coming "man of sin" will play God in, are orthodox Jews and their deceived pundits who push lies against what Paul revealed there.

Nah, that's not true. This misunderstanding is not limited to any ethnicity or people group. :)

You know, Apostle Paul could have even quoted Christ about that future stone temple in Jerusalem, or from the Book of Daniel about that future stone temple and the "abomination of desolation" that is to be placed inside it for the end of this world. (Matthew 24:15).

Well, he could have, I guess, but that would have been in contradiction of what Christ and Daniel actually said, and therefore would not have been included in God's Word. :)

Totally IRRELEVANT once again.

I mean, I get that you think that ~ and many others would probably agree with you. But that does not make it so... :)

For that reason, that you REFUSE to understand that Christ's Temple of The Spirit CANNOT EVER be corrupted by ANY man, nor spirit nor angel...

Oh, I would and do wholeheartedly agree with you on this, Davy. The gates of hell cannot and will not prevail. Thanks be to God.

Brethren in Christ Jesus:
I would not trust anything this fellow PinSeeker here says. Like Apostle Paul expressed once for one pushing falseness, his word is like a canker.

Grace and peace to you, Davy. Especially grace, since you seem to have none.

 

[Davy]

The "Abomination of destruction" is a reference to Satan Himself. Satan is the desolator, the one who makes desolate spiritually.

Not according to the Book of Daniel, and the 'ensample' of history we have already been given with what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem with setting up a literal idol in the 2nd temple and demanding that all in Jerusalem bow to it. The AOD event is about 'spiritual desolation' of the future 3rd Jewish stone temple today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are ready to build.

What causes that future 'spiritual desolation' will be a literal IDOL setup on an altar inside that future temple, with the coming Antichrist's demand that all worship it. Revelation 13 calls that IDOL as "the image of the beast", and is for the coming "great tribulation" time.

Daniel 9:27b: And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator.

I prefer the following Bible translation...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims

Now in Daniel 9:24b we have these words:

Daniel 9:24b: - {And then} to make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint a scared place as being Holy.

We should note that Christ's crucifixion on the cross did not anoint the Temple Mound as being Holy. His death did however make all of Jerusalem Holy because His sacrifice on the cross occurred outside of the city limits of that day.

As such a third temple is not required. However, because many "Christians" and Jews believe that a Third Temple is required to hasten the End Time Event, in our near future they will attempt to build the third temple, but they will not have the means to complete its construction. This attempt to build the Third Temple will cause the Kings of the earth to come against Jerusalem to trample God's sanctuary and His Earthly hosts one last time before the completion of the 2,300-year time span of the Daniel 8 prophecy.

What you propose is IRRELEVANT. Reason is no doubt because of the Bible translation you have chosen to use, and also by misinterpreting the below verse about that, "and to anoint the most Holy" event...

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV

That anointing of the most Holy is about the cleansing of the sanctuary that was mentioned back at Daniel 8:14...

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

No need then to try and 'spiritualize' that part in red as being simply about Christ, while trying to omit the idea of the "sanctuary" that it is in reality clearly pointing to.

Ever the best of scholars can get it wrong, some of the time and this is just one example where this is true. Many have got the need for the third temple wrong.

Shalom

Again, totally irrelevant. You are only saying that to suggest to the Biblically illiterate here that anybody can be in error of Bible interpretation. While that is true, it is NOT true all the time. And in this case, you will have to try a whole lot harder to remove the clarity of the Scriptures in God's Word that I have covered about this thread's topic. Randy Kluth above tried the same vain strategy continually using the idea that I'm only teaching my 'opinion'. That is often what those who cannot attack the Bible Scripture Truth resort to, with attacking the messenger.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yours is the actual opinion from men's doctrines. The early Church father Hippolytus never said anything about the Romans having fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy of Daniel 9:27. Nor did the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) claim the "abomination of desolation" placing of the idol in a stone temple in Jerusalem having been fulfilled by the Romans, for the 2nd temple burned down before the Romans could seize it; that is what Josephus said. Thus you are just spouting 'your OPINIONS' from men's doctrines in hopes the Biblically illiterate here might believe you.

So NO... the Roman army destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 A.D. Jerusalem was definitely NOT... what the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in the Book of Daniel is about.

Hippolytus was only about one of two or three Church Fathers who held to deviant views of Dan 9. He, along with his mentor, Irenaeus, held that the 70th Week of Daniel inexplicably would be a future Week, separated from the previous 69 Weeks!

Josephus is a limited authority on Christian views of the Bible. He most certainly would not have accepted Jesus' view of the Olivet Discourse, would he?

Again, your view is not "fact," but "opinion." The vast majority of Bible experts in history would've rejected your view. A currently-popular eschatology makes it appear to you that it is invincible. And it is not! In my view it is very flawed, as I've regularly been pointing out.

 

[Jay Ross]

Not according to the Book of Daniel, and the 'ensample' of history we have already been given with what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem with setting up a literal idol in the 2nd temple and demanding that all in Jerusalem bow to it. The AOD event is about 'spiritual desolation' of the future 3rd Jewish stone temple today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are ready to build.

What causes that future 'spiritual desolation' will be a literal IDOL setup on an altar inside that future temple, with the coming Antichrist's demand that all worship it. Revelation 13 calls that IDOL as "the image of the beast", and is for the coming "great tribulation" time.



I prefer the following Bible translation...

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims




What you propose is IRRELEVANT. Reason is no doubt because of the Bible translation you have chosen to use, and also by misinterpreting the below verse about that, "and to anoint the most Holy" event...

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV

That anointing of the most Holy is about the cleansing of the sanctuary that was mentioned back at Daniel 8:14...

Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

No need then to try and 'spiritualize' that part in red as being simply about Christ, while trying to omit the idea of the "sanctuary" that it is in reality clearly pointing to.



Again, totally irrelevant. You are only saying that to suggest to the Biblically illiterate here that anybody can be in error of Bible interpretation. While that is true, it is NOT true all the time. And in this case, you will have to try a whole lot harder to remove the clarity of the Scriptures in God's Word that I have covered about this thread's topic. Randy Kluth above tried the same vain strategy continually using the idea that I'm only teaching my 'opinion'. That is often what those who cannot attack the Bible Scripture Truth resort to, with attacking the messenger.

Davy, I cannot change your mind because of your accepted and flawed preterist understandings.

There is no point in continuing this conversation, Have a perceived win for now. It will not last.

Goodbye

 

[Davy]

Davy, I cannot change your mind because of your accepted and flawed preterist understandings.

There is no point in continuing this conversation, Have a perceived win for now. It will not last.

Goodbye

Thought to get in a last stab at me, huh?

I'm not a Preterist.

Preterism doesn't believe there will be a 3rd temple at the end of this world.

What you have actually resigned yourself to is your inability to change the Scripture evidence that I showed for a future 3rd Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

 

[Davy]

Hippolytus was only about one of two or three Church Fathers who held to deviant views of Dan 9. He, along with his mentor, Irenaeus, held that the 70th Week of Daniel inexplicably would be a future Week, separated from the previous 69 Weeks!

Josephus is a limited authority on Christian views of the Bible. He most certainly would not have accepted Jesus' view of the Olivet Discourse, would he?

Again, your view is not "fact," but "opinion." The vast majority of Bible experts in history would've rejected your view. A currently-popular eschatology makes it appear to you that it is invincible. And it is not! In my view it is very flawed, as I've regularly been pointing out.

The burden of proof is upon you, because you are the one who claimed the early Church fathers said the "abomination of desolation" event was about the destruction of the 2nd temple by the Romans army in 70 A.D.

 

[Davy]

Fine, but it was a false impression. And that's your fault, Davy; I was very clear in what I said.


Yes, I'm well aware. And the misimpressions and misunderstandings regarding such. Yes.


Okay, good, but you might try being at least a little more understanding of what is clearly being said. :)


Agree; he's talking about different things entirely at the end of Ephesians 2 as compared to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Sure.


It's entirely relevant, in that it states the true nature of the final Jewish stone temple ~ consisting of true Jews, among which will be people of every tongue, tribe, and nation ~ of God.


Nah, that's not true. This misunderstanding is not limited to any ethnicity or people group. :)


Well, he could have, I guess, but that would have been in contradiction of what Christ and Daniel actually said, and therefore would not have been included in God's Word. :)


I mean, I get that you think that ~ and many others would probably agree with you. But that does not make it so... :)



Oh, I would and do wholeheartedly agree with you on this, Davy. The gates of hell cannot and will not prevail. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you, Davy. Especially grace, since you seem to have none.

It's obvious you don't care to discuss the actual Bible Scripture evidence, and instead are on a false Jew agenda to try and discredit. Thus your idiotic rant above.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The burden of proof is upon you, because you are the one who claimed the early Church fathers said the "abomination of desolation" event was about the destruction of the 2nd temple by the Romans army in 70 A.D.

What do you want proof of? I've already showed you the arguments that I think indicate your view is flawed. I mean, I don't care if you want to believe X,Y, or Z theories of interpretation. We all have to do what we have to do.

But when it comes to claimed "facts," then the burden of proof is yours. And I've already addressed these supposed "facts." They are just opinions.

 

[Davy]

What do you want proof of? I've already showed you the arguments that I think indicate your view is flawed. I mean, I don't care if you want to believe X,Y, or Z theories of interpretation. We all have to do what we have to do.

But when it comes to claimed "facts," then the burden of proof is yours. And I've already addressed these supposed "facts." They are just opinions.

It's idiotic what you propose, since you have not offered any Bible Scripture evidence that disproves the 'facts' of Bible Scripture I showed in my above posts.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thought to get in a last stab at me, huh?

I'm not a Preterist.

Preterism doesn't believe there will be a 3rd temple at the end of this world.

What you have actually resigned yourself to is your inability to change the Scripture evidence that I showed for a future 3rd Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

So, you claim not to be a preterist, but you accept their claim that the Daniel 8:13-14 prophecy: -

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

This is what I said: -

Davy, I cannot change your mind because of your accepted and flawed preterist understandings.

Your claim that This prophecy occurred in 170-165 BC.

Not according to the Book of Daniel, and the 'ensample' of history we have already been given with what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem with setting up a literal idol in the 2nd temple and demanding that all in Jerusalem bow to it. The AOD event is about 'spiritual desolation' of the future 3rd Jewish stone temple today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem are ready to build.

This is one of the cornerstones of the Preterist's claims that all prophecy has been completed.

Now whether you accept only some of the preterist's theories, or all of their theories in whole or in part, does not invalidate what I had posted.

When the AOD is standing in that Holy place does not necessarily mean that a temple has to exist. For God all of Jerusalem is Holy, so that means that if the AOD is standing in Jerusalem then he is standing in a holy place.

In any case Jesus said that after the temple is loosened such that one stone is not left on another, that He would gather the Temples of His Body, the Saints to form the Temple in Jerusalem to worship God three days of the Lord from that day that the Temple is loosened.. If this is the case, then no temple must exist before the final judgement.

Davy, your arguments do not hold water.

Now Jesus did say that the Israelites would attempt to build a Temple before the end of this age, but that they would not have the means to do so and the surrounding nations would rise up to oppose them building the temple. Jesus even went so far that He described the time of the kings of the earth being judged at Armageddon, and when the Israelites saw the destruction of the kings of the earth the quickly sort out what Jesus' term of peace would be. Bur you probably do not recognise these verses and what they tell us about the redemption of the Israelites.

When you have a better card to play other than the martyr's card please present your rebuttal based on scripture.

Goodbye

 

[PinSeeker]

It's obvious you don't care to discuss the actual Bible Scripture evidence...

I'd love to, actually. I just know what I'd get from you. But still, sure. Always love discussing God's Word...

...and instead are on a false Jew agenda...

LOL!

to try and discredit.

Yes, this is exactly what you are doing, by faking incredulity and calling people idiots and making false ~ absurd, really ~ accusations and the like.

Thus your idiotic rant above.

The only one ranting here is you, Davy. You build yourself up by... well, attempting, I guess... to tear down others. Yeah, if you want to actually discuss God's Word, I'm all for that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

I'd love to, actually. I just know what I'd get from you. But still, sure. Always love discussing God's Word...

Still a cop out.

You won't discuss the Scriptures I presented because you don't know enough about them.

Yes, this is exactly what you are doing, by faking incredulity and calling people idiots and making false ~ absurd, really ~ accusations and the like.


The only one ranting here is you, Davy. You build yourself up by... well, attempting, I guess... to tear down others. Yeah, if you want to actually discuss God's Word, I'm all for that.

Grace and peace to you.

You are the one who instead of discussing the Scriptures I presented started your 'credibility' attack, you hypocrite.