Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him

[CadyandZoe]

There is a lot to address here so I will break it up…..

Do you believe that God does not search the hearts of individuals to find those deserving of his blessings?

I believe that God searches out the hearts of individuals, yes. Does he do this in order to see who deserves his blessings? No.

Doesn’t this tell us that the heart dictates our words and actions? God reads hearts as easily as we read words. We tell God who we are every day, without saying a word.

Yes, Jesus' analogy tells us that the heart dictates our words and actions. The intent of his analogy is to help us understand how to read each other. We can know the tree by it's fruits. However, I don't think God needs actions to read hearts because he creates hearts. I think he has direct access to our hearts, as it says in 1 Chronicles 28:9, Romans 8:27, Revelation 2:23. Not only is God able to search the heart directly, he is able to know our intent.

At times, we may do something unintentionally or accidentally. It's not always possible to judge someone's true intentions based on their actions. However, God always knows our true intentions. On the other hand, Jesus' analogy of the tree/treasure suggests that if you want to know someone's true heart, you need to observe them over time. The longer you observe, the more accurately you can assess their character.

The main point is this. When God says, "I have kept for myself . . ." he takes responsibility and credit for the outcome. He wasn't looking for righteous people to select. Rather, he claims that it was in his power and control to bring about 7,000 men who would not bow the knee to Baal. He takes credit for that because it was his doing. He brought it about.

I agree that our behavior reflects our motives, and not bowing the knee to Baal indicates the true intent of the 7,000 men, as per Jesus' analogy. I also maintain that when God says, "I have kept for myself 7,000 men" he is taking credit for both their intent and their behavior.

To understand the bigger picture, we need to acknowledge that both statements are true at the same time. The scriptures invite us to discover how to harmonize them. How can it be true that the 7,000 men indicated the intent of their hearts by not bowing the knee, while at the same time, God takes credit for it instead? How can God and man take credit or responsibility for the same act?

We can look back to Paul's earlier statement regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Paul recognizes the same tension in the account of Moses and Pharaoh. The Bible states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while also stating that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both statements are true at the same time. Not only can we evaluate the heart of Pharaoh based on his actions, but we are also informed that the state and intention of Pharaoh's heart were under God's direct control, power, and management.

We individually build our own “house” of faith by listening to Jesus and doing as he tells us…..by doing so we will have the best foundations on which to build our faith…..I do not believe that Christendom has good foundations, and therefore her doctrines are due to lead to a complete collapse, because it will mean trying to whether a storm that she is not equipped to handle. The storm that is coming is God’s day of judgment….and it starts with “the house of God”. (1 Peter 4:17-18) False religion is the first to go.

You could be right. I can see what you are saying.

He is done with actual creating as it says in Genesis 2:1-3 …..but that doesn’t mean that he is done with his creation……he has continued to work, as this 7th day continues, (there is no indication in Genesis that the 7th day has ended because there is no declaration indicating God’s satisfaction with its completion)

"I'm not sure about this, but it seems that Moses structured his material around a seven-day week where God rested on the seventh day. However, I have often wondered if we are still in the sixth day. The scriptures suggest that there will be a day of rest, a day of Shalom, when we will lay down all our burdens. When speaking of Israel, Paul invites his readers to consider whether Joshua brought them their rest, which is also mentioned in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4." According to Paul, there remains a day of rest that we will enter.

So as the results of man’s rebellion escalate, God is separating mankind into two categories, so that when that day of accounting comes, there will be a clear line of demarcation.

I'm uncertain what you said is applicable to all mankind, but what you say is true regarding the nation of Israel. God will divide her into two categories. Maybe he will do the same for the rest of the world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is one way to read it, but IMO that does not fit in with what the scriptures say about those who must serve God with their whole hearts, soul and mind…..this was part of the “two greatest Commandments in the Law”, as outlined by Jesus himself. (Matt 22:36-40) One is not acceptable to God merely by being born into a certain lineage…..if our hearts are not 100% with God, we have no place in his kingdom.

I don't want to overlook the importance of Jesus' statement regarding free will and human moral accountability. As you correctly pointed out, it is our responsibility to obey God's commands, to honor and love Him and others, and to take care of His creation. Moreover, without free will, human actions lack meaning in that sense.

You also rightly point out that pedigree is not a basis for acceptability with God. That is Jesus' point also. Our apostle Paul also spoke about the sons of Abraham in his epistles to the Galatians and the Romans. In Romans chapter 4, Paul identifies the sons of Abraham as all those who share Abraham's faith. He is the father of faith to those who are the circumcised and those who are the uncircumcised.

So then, when Jesus says that God can raise up sons of Abraham from stones, he means to say that God can raise up people who share the same faith as Abraham from stones. We we accountable for our faith, or lack of faith? Yes. Is God accountable for our faith or lack of faith. Yes. Both are true at the same time. As Jesus said, God can create sons of Abraham from stones.

I have no such hope for fleshly Israel….individuals from natural Israel will come to Christ no doubt, as time allows…..but God will not redeem those who shun his only means of salvation. The “remnant” of that nation will be all that natural Israel will provide, just as it was prophesied.

I wouldn't say it that way because Paul doesn't put it that way. I could use an account from scripture to make my point.

Korah's rebellion is recorded in the Book of Numbers, in the portion known as Korach. It is a story of how Korah, a Levite, and his followers challenged the authority of Moses and Aaron, the leader and the High Priest of the Israelites. They claimed that they were all equally holy and deserving of the priesthood. As a result, they were punished by G-d in a miraculous way: the earth opened up and swallowed Korah and his allies, and fire consumed those who offered incense.

The main point I want to convey is that even after the incident of Korah's rebellion, Israel did not cease to exist as a nation. Though God removed ungodliness from the Levites and their followers, Israel still remained intact as a nation. God did not dissolve the nation after that event.

I agree with you that a similar event will happen in the future. As you mentioned, God will divide Israel into two parts, one of which will survive while the other will be destroyed. Similar to Korah's rebellion, the nation of Israel will continue to exist as a political and social power, comprising only those who fear the Lord.

How can God declare any nation with blood on their hands to be innocent before him? He does not hear their prayers. (Isa 1:15) There is nothing ”holy” about them…..it was their forefather Abraham who was holy to God…..his progeny did not follow in his footsteps, but nonetheless, they provided a stunning example of how NOT to serve Jehovah.

The term "holy" is not used to describe a person's character. Rather, it means "set aside to serve God." For instance, if a potter makes two bowls from the same clay, both exactly alike, he might use one bowl for his morning cereal and the other for performing oblations to the Lord in the temple. The first bowl is considered "common," while the second bowl is "holy." The terms "common" and "holy" are used to refer to the purpose for which the object is intended, not to its intrinsic nature.

Did Israel act like a holy people? Not always, no. Does the current Israel act like a holy people? No, not always. Did God set them aside, out of all the other nations, to serve a special purpose? Yes. Therefore, no matter their character or behavior, they are a holy people. They are holy because God set them aside for a special purpose.

It was already divided in the first century.

The people were divided, yes. But the country, the nation was united in her hatred for Jesus Christ and his followers.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not quite sure I catch your drift there.....

My point concerns terminology and the names of things. You were using the term "Israel" in reference to the body of Christ. My point was this. Paul uses the term "Israel" in reference to the nation of people, whom he calls "my kinsmen according to the flesh" and he remains critical of his nation for not seeking justification by faith. He would never suggest that the body of Christ is guilty of unbelief or disobedience. Rather, He uses the term "pleroma" in reference to the entire body of Christ, which includes both Jews and Gentiles from every place and from all time in history.

Sorry, but I beg to differ again…..since the promise made to Abraham was NOT just for the Jews, but for people of “all the nations” to obtain a blessing through the seed that was to come through his lineage, (as either one of its rulers or one of its subjects) it is God who determines who gets a pass into the Kingdom and what role they will play…..

Okay, I could be wrong. Perhaps the Olive tree represents "the state of being declared holy by God." If that is what the Tree represents, then "natural branches" are those people born into the state of holiness, and "wild olive branches" represent those people who entered a state of holiness by God's will. In any case, the Tree doesn't represent Israel, since Israel is populated mostly by Jacob's descendants, who enter the people of God through circumcision. And Israel is partially hardened.

The body of Christ is not solely populated by the descendants of Jacob entering Christ through circumcision. And the body of Christ is not partially hardened.

The promise was conditional…..God said…”IF you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples”…..that little word “IF”…..meant that “IF” they failed to obey their God, his promise to them was null and void. That was the reason for the Gentiles being grafted in, in their place.

God promised Israel that they will be his special people. I don't think that promise was conditional. Rather, their status was conditional. The question is whether Israel, at any given moment in time, is acting like a special people. For the most part, as we know, they didn't act like a special people, they acted like everyone else.

There is room still for those who want to accept Jesus as Messiah to come in now, before the judgment, but too late once the end has come and overtaken them.

I understand and I agree with your premise that "today" is the day to receive Jesus to be your messiah. Even so, God still has a use for the nation of Israel in the end.

If this is the example Jesus used, then what are we to take from it? No faith and obedience….means no salvation!

Agreed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that God searches out the hearts of individuals, yes. Does he do this in order to see who deserves his blessings? No.

I was thinking of Jesus’ instructions to his disciples when he sent them out to preach the message of the Kingdom....
Matt 10:11-14...
“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.”

The Word “deserving” used here is rendered “worthy” in other translations, so what does it mean?
Strongs gives the meaning of this word, “axios” as...

1. “weighing, having weight, having the weight of another thing of like value, worth as much
2. befitting, congruous, corresponding to a thing
3. of one who has merited anything worthy
   
   1. both in a good and a bad sense

ἄξιος áxios, ax'-ee-os; probably from G71; deserving, comparable or suitable (as if drawing praise):—due reward, meet, (un-)worthy.”

So people can be judged as either “worthy” or “unworthy” of some reward by their actions.......as far as I can see, people must ‘merit’ a reward from God, even though his free gift of life is given to all, not all will accept or ‘deserve’ the reward he is offering......it is conditional, just as continuing life in the garden of Eden was conditional. The first humans had an opportunity to live forever in their mortal flesh, but it depended on their obedience to God’s command concerning the TKGE. If they had refused the devil’s temptation (which they could have) we would not be in this mess. So our actions have an impact on our future and the future of others that our actions affect.

Israel’s blessings from Jehovah were conditional as well....as we saw by the word “IF” when making his covenant with them at Mt Sinai. A little word but packed with meaning.

I agree that our behavior reflects our motives, and not bowing the knee to Baal indicates the true intent of the 7,000 men, as per Jesus' analogy. I also maintain that when God says, "I have kept for myself 7,000 men" he is taking credit for both their intent and their

Yes, I see what you mean....I would see that as God discerning the hearts of those 7,000 and strengthening their resolve not to worship Baal, as all the others were doing. I believe Israel’s army was well over 600,000 men, so a mere 7,000 was a very small minority. (another remnant)

How can it be true that the 7,000 men indicated the intent of their hearts by not bowing the knee, while at the same time, God takes credit for it instead? How can God and man take credit or responsibility for the same act?

We can look back to Paul's earlier statement regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Paul recognizes the same tension in the account of Moses and Pharaoh. The Bible states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, while also stating that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Both statements are true at the same time. Not only can we evaluate the heart of Pharaoh based on his actions, but we are also informed that the state and intention of Pharaoh's heart were under God's direct control, power, and management.

Yes, that is a good example. Pharaoh was just being himself, but God did not dissuade him from his hardened attitude, because he would use him as a biblical example of one who thought he could try Jehovah’s patience to the limit. He saw himself as a god after all, so who was this “Jehovah” that he should do what he was told and let his entire body of slaves go free? (Exodus 5:1-2) Little did he know that all of the plagues were designed to humiliate the gods that Egypt worshipped...in the last plague, even Pharaoh himself lost his son and heir because of his stubborn disobedience....then he lost his own life in the pursuit of the Israelites, trying to get them back......some people never learn. His appalling example is still teaching us.

"I'm not sure about this, but it seems that Moses structured his material around a seven-day week where God rested on the seventh day. However, I have often wondered if we are still in the sixth day. The scriptures suggest that there will be a day of rest, a day of Shalom, when we will lay down all our burdens. When speaking of Israel, Paul invites his readers to consider whether Joshua brought them their rest, which is also mentioned in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4." According to Paul, there remains a day of rest that we will enter.

Yes, a 7 day week was based on the creative days, but as Peter said ”....do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (2 Peter 3:8)
Jehovah used the 7th day to give the Israelites a day of rest from their labors.....a day to give their consideration to spiritual things without distraction.

Even in the wilderness God catered to his rest day for them by providing a double portion of the manna, so that no work needed to be done at all. Keeping the Sabbath was part of God’s law to Israel, but it was never binding on Gentile Christians because they were not under the law as Jews and proselytes were........the Law was “done away with” by Jesus’s sacrifice. (Col 2:13-14; Gal 3:13) Jewish Christians were no longer obligated to observe the Sabbath either, but there was no law against it. Like circumcision, it was no longer necessary to identify God’s Christian worshippers.

Is there a reason why God could not take all the time he needed to create all that he had set himself to do in each creative period? He is after all, not confined to the rotation of our planet to determine time where he dwells. He is an infinite being where time is not as relevant as it is to us. Yet he is a precise time keeper.

Allowing Genesis to use the word “yôm” to mean ‘a period of undetermined length’, allows science to be somewhat correct about the age of the earth and of living things now extinct. I am not confirming their accuracy BTW.

Another thing to consider is reference to “evening and morning”, which we know is not a day in our reckoning. The Jewish day began at sundown and ended at the next sundown.....but evening to morning is not a 24 hour day. So I believe it has reference to one day beginning at sunset and a new day beginning at sunrise. Even in English, we speak of “the dawn of a new era”.....it isn’t a literal dawn, but the beginning of a new age or phase of something.

I'm uncertain what you said is applicable to all mankind, but what you say is true regarding the nation of Israel. God will divide her into two categories. Maybe he will do the same for the rest of the world.

Since the rest of the world was included in God’s acceptance of Gentiles into the Christian arrangement, it has to apply to all. (Acts 10:34-35) Paul said that only two categories of people would receive God’s adverse judgment.....”those who do not know God “ because they don’t want to know him....and ‘those who know about Jesus but fail to obey him’....that covers just about everyone, regardless of their religious leanings or lack of them.

Today, an identification of someone “Jewish” often just means an Israeli.....many Israeli’s are atheists.
Religiously, they are divided into sects like Christendom....some are slaves to ridiculous traditions which have them performing like seals just to get out of their front doors in the morning. I feel sorry for them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The main point I want to convey is that even after the incident of Korah's rebellion, Israel did not cease to exist as a nation. Though God removed ungodliness from the Levites and their followers, Israel still remained intact as a nation. God did not dissolve the nation after that event.

Jehovah was faithful to Israel, even when they were not faithful to him.....this was because he had reasons to keep them in existence even at those times when he wanted to exterminate them!
After all that he had done to demonstrate his power and saving ability, at the first sign that Moses was taking too long in the mountain, this was reason enough to make a golden calf and begin having “a festival to Jehovah”.
They created an idol and called it by the name of their God.....
God’s response? He said to Moses....
“So now let me be, and I will exterminate them in my burning anger, and let me make a great nation from you instead.”
Moses pleaded for the people, but when he got down the mountain, he was so appalled by what he saw, that he threw down the stone tablets upon which God had written his commandments.

Exodus 32:25-29 tells us the sad outcome....can we imagine being told to kill our own kin because of their disobedience? What does this tell us about faithfulness to God even in that early time period just after their deliverance?

I agree with you that a similar event will happen in the future. As you mentioned, God will divide Israel into two parts, one of which will survive while the other will be destroyed. Similar to Korah's rebellion, the nation of Israel will continue to exist as a political and social power, comprising only those who fear the Lord.

God is already dividing the human race.....when the reapers come (and they are right now standing at the ready, waiting for the master’s command to begin the harvest) they will already know who are “wheat” and who are “weeds”.....but will we? At Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus indicates that “many” will be shocked at his rejection, imagining that the “Christianity” they practised was authentic....but it “NEVER” was.

The terms "common" and "holy" are used to refer to the purpose for which the object is intended, not to its intrinsic nature.

Did Israel act like a holy people? Not always, no. Does the current Israel act like a holy people? No, not always.

The current “Israel” is a political nation, not a spiritual one. They have blood on their hands just as Christendom does......they have never acted as a holy people since well before the death of Christ. It was over 300 years since God had sent his prophets to correct Israel, so their spiritual condition was well and truly entrenched by the time God sent last prophet to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (not to the religious leaders)....”a prophet like Moses” (Deut 18:15) was going to collect out of them a people who would be obedient to God and his Christ......but only a remnant responded, as it was prophesied.

So I have no idea how you can say that God is with natural Israel......they are no better than the people that they are fighting. (Isaiah 1:15) No war that Israel fought in ancient times was for conquest, but only for the defence of their God given land......Israel lost her land when gentile nations dominated it due to God’s withdrawal of his protection, and he used Babylon to conquer Israel and lead them captive to Babylon for 70 years. Israel has never been in sole possession of her land, ever since. Religiously speaking the “holy land” failed to be holy once in the possession of those who served other gods. The Jews dispersed into other lands.

Did God set them aside, out of all the other nations, to serve a special purpose? Yes. Therefore, no matter their character or behavior, they are a holy people. They are holy because God set them aside for a special purpose.

Past tense.....they were “holy people” but not “holy” in their conduct....only in their purpose.....to produce God’s Messiah....the one that Israel was expecting to come and liberate them from the oppressive yoke of Rome and to re-establish them as God holy nation of priests in his kingdom.....they, of course were dreaming!
As soon as Jesus established himself as Israel’s Messiah (at his baptism) and he thereafter castigated the religious leaders for their failure as shepherds of God’s precious sheep, reprimanding them at every opportunity, their hatred for him grew and they painted a very dim picture of Jesus as one who did his miracles through the power of the devil. Those persuaded by the lies told by the Pharisees, condemned themselves, whereas those who came to Jesus were prepared to be persecuted and die for their faith in him as God’s Messiah. What was the difference? The condition of their hearts.

The people were divided, yes. But the country, the nation was united in her hatred for Jesus Christ and his followers.

The people were divided and at that time were judged as unworthy of Christ’s sacrifice because of their disobedience......”the lost sheep” were “lost” because of their negligent shepherds. Their leaders were a stark contrast to Jesus who treated people with kindness, understanding, and compassion......the Pharisees lacked all three.

The fact is that no Jew can trace his/her lineage, to prove that they are true descendants of Abraham. Everything was destroyed when Jerusalem was overtaken by the Roman armies in 70 CE and their genealogical records perished as well. We all know how pedantic the Jews were about their lineage, all carefully recorded so that when Messiah came, his credentials would be carefully checked against Bible prophesy.....so after the destruction of the Temple, no one claiming to be Israel’s Messiah could thereafter prove their authenticity.

Israel is still waiting for the first appearance of their Messiah, but here we are as Christians, almost 2000 years later, waiting for his return......with Christ’s return will come a separation and judgment.....these are inescapable, “just like the days of Noah”...people get no second chances. The window of opportunity is about to close.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My point concerns terminology and the names of things. You were using the term "Israel" in reference to the body of Christ. My point was this. Paul uses the term "Israel" in reference to the nation of people, whom he calls "my kinsmen according to the flesh" and he remains critical of his nation for not seeking justification by faith. He would never suggest that the body of Christ is guilty of unbelief or disobedience. Rather, He uses the term "pleroma" in reference to the entire body of Christ, which includes both Jews and Gentiles from every place and from all time in history.

Actually, I believe that Paul used the term “Israel” as any Jew would.....to refer to his nation....but he also spoke about “the Israel of God”.
He was speaking to his fellow Christians when he said regarding some who wanted the gentile Christians to be circumcised...(Gal 6:13-16)
“For even those who are getting circumcised do not keep the Law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they may have cause for boasting about your flesh. . . . . . 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. 16 As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God.”

So he spoke of his kinsmen (those pushing the circumcision issue) as well as those who are a “new creation” (the spirit anointed Christians)...these are “the Israel of God”.

Okay, I could be wrong. Perhaps the Olive tree represents "the state of being declared holy by God." If that is what the Tree represents, then "natural branches" are those people born into the state of holiness, and "wild olive branches" represent those people who entered a state of holiness by God's will.

The natural branches were broken off and new branches were grafted in so that all became “one nation” in Christ.
The only reason to graft in new branches was to fulfill the pre-determined number who were destined to become “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

Paul wrote to the Gentile Christians in Ephesus.....
“Therefore, remember that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent, were the ones called “uncircumcision” by those called “circumcision,” which is made in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel, strangers to the covenants of the promise; you had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus, you who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, the one who made the two groups one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace, 16 and to reconcile fully both peoples in one body to God....” (Eph 2:11-16)

This is the body of Christ. Gentiles will never lose their place as God’s anointed ones.

God promised Israel that they will be his special people. I don't think that promise was conditional. Rather, their status was conditional. The question is whether Israel, at any given moment in time, is acting like a special people. For the most part, as we know, they didn't act like a special people, they acted like everyone else.

Could Israel disqualify themselves as “God’s people”? I believe that they did. His special people were “special” only because they were used to further God’s purpose. Once his purpose was served, he no longer had reason to keep those disobedient ones in his care and keeping....a new “Israel” now became God’s special people....those who wanted to do God’s will instead of their own.

In any case, the Tree doesn't represent Israel, since Israel is populated mostly by Jacob's descendants, who enter the people of God through circumcision. And Israel is partially hardened.

How can the tree represent anything but God’s nation descended from Jacob? It was they who received God’s promises when he first released them from slavery in Egypt. Since it was Jacob’s descendants who would receive the privilege of producing the Messiah, the Christian scriptures concentrate on those descendants....and we have their history written for our instruction...to show us both good and bad examples of how to serve the true God correctly.

I understand and I agree with your premise that "today" is the day to receive Jesus to be your messiah. Even so, God still has a use for the nation of Israel in the end.

Time will tell, I’m sure....God has his nation of ‘spiritual Israel’, but I really don’t see how natural Israel has even a foot in the door since they will not jump ship at the last minute....God does not do things like that. He gives people ample opportunity to respond and then at the end, no more chances. He has given Israel 2000 years already! His patience has limits.

 

[Runningman]

Is the Bible contradicting for who raised Jesus.
John 10.18 says he did but what do you think

I think he did not. The wording in John 2:22 is stated as such that he wouldn't have been the one who did it. The thing is, if Jesus (all of Jesus) didn't die on the cross then Jesus didn't actually die. Jesus was still alive somewhere. The problem with this is that if that's true, then there was never a sacrifice for sins. So I believe Jesus died and then required God to resurrect him. This is stated all over, but I find one of the most powerful passages for this is 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.

 

[Pierac]

""""Jesus was in the world, and though the world was made by Him, the world did not recognize Him."""

Where did you get this idea?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I was thinking of Jesus’ instructions to his disciples when he sent them out to preach the message of the Kingdom....

In this instance, it's a question of deserving to hear the message. Who in that city deserves to hear the message? Jesus is warning them that some houses may not welcome the gospel message, while other houses will welcome the gospel message. If a house is unwelcome to hear the gospel message, then walk away and shake the dust off of your feet as a sign that you took nothing from them as payment, not even dust.

So people can be judged as either “worthy” or “unworthy” of some reward by their actions.......as far as I can see, people must ‘merit’ a reward from God,

I agree, God will reward those who merit a reward. And as you suggest, God will reward a worthy house with a messenger and a message to those who welcome the messenger.

But salvation is unlike rewarding meritorious action. According to Paul's account of the Gospel message in his epistle to the Romans, Paul reminds us all, Jews and Gentiles alike, that none of us are worthy of salvation. We are all worthy of damnation.

The good-news message we learned from Jesus and the Apostles is that God's gift of salvation is given freely.

even though his free gift of life is given to all, not all will accept or ‘deserve’ the reward he is offering......it is conditional, just as continuing life in the garden of Eden was conditional.

While the gift of salvation is conditional, it isn't contingent, if you know what I mean. We often emphasize the conditional aspect of salvation but fail to realize that God meets all the conditions himself. We can multiply verses of the Bible, where it is clear that believing God's word is a prerequisite to salvation. But we can find other verses teaching that faith itself is an aspect of God's free gift. We believe because God made it possible for us to believe.

Israel’s blessings from Jehovah were conditional as well....as we saw by the word “IF” when making his covenant with them at Mt Sinai. A little word but packed with meaning.

Yes, I agree. But to understand the relationship between God and Abraham, we should remember the account of Abraham as recorded in Genesis. In that account, God cut a covenant with Abraham. To "cut a covenant," in those days, animals were divided in half, and the two halves were spread apart on the ground. The two parties making the covenant would walk between the cuttings as if to say, "May what happened to these animals happen to us if we break our covenant." However, God did not allow Abraham to walk between the cuttings. Only God walked between the cuttings, signifying that God alone was responsible for carrying out the terms of the covenant.

The new covenant is the same thing. While God is going to make a covenant with Israel -- a covenant with conditions for both God and Israel, God alone will carry out all the terms of the covenant, -- his and Israel's -- because like their father Abraham, Israel will be in a deep sleep during that time.

Yes, I see what you mean....I would see that as God discerning the hearts of those 7,000 and strengthening their resolve not to worship Baal, as all the others were doing. I believe Israel’s army was well over 600,000 men, so a mere 7,000 was a very small minority. (another remnant)

I see that. The question is, why didn't God strengthen the resolve of everyone? If we say that God looked into the hearts of everyone and only found 7.000 men worthy of having their resolve strengthened, then why not say that 7,000 men kept themselves for God with God's help? But God says that HE kept 7,000 men for himself, expecting recognition, praise, and approval for something HE did.

If God found people who were worthy to be saved, then why not give recognition, praise, and approval for some quality of character that they possessed? Paul, used this example to highlight God's choice and to reiterate his position that salvation doesn't depend on human will.

Yes, that is a good example. Pharaoh was just being himself, but God did not dissuade him from his hardened attitude, because he would use him as a biblical example of one who thought he could try Jehovah’s patience to the limit.

Who is credited for why Pharaoh didn't change his mind after the first plague? Two or three plagues would have been enough to demonstrate Pharaoh's stubborn resolve. But no one is THAT stubborn are they? God tells Moses, "But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt." (Exodus 7:3) In other words, God kept Pharaoh's heart hardened for 10 plagues to multiply his signs and wonders.

For this reason, I think Paul is suggesting that God is keeping Israel's hearts hardened so that he might, once again, multiply his signs and wonders in the land of Israel. Maybe. The point is God hardens people's hearts to serve his purposes. And if Israel is partially hardened now, then it serves his purpose to keep them hardened until the right moment.

Today, an identification of someone “Jewish” often just means an Israeli.....many Israeli’s are atheists.
Religiously, they are divided into sects like Christendom....some are slaves to ridiculous traditions which have them performing like seals just to get out of their front doors in the morning. I feel sorry for them.

Me too. But God still has a role for Israel to play.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jehovah was faithful to Israel, even when they were not faithful to him.....this was because he had reasons to keep them in existence even at those times when he wanted to exterminate them!

Esatto!

The current “Israel” is a political nation, not a spiritual one.

Same as before.

but only a remnant responded, as it was prophesied.

Just as it will be in the end.

So I have no idea how you can say that God is with natural Israel......they are no better than the people that they are fighting.

God said that he would bring them back to the land. He is currently doing that. He also promised to bless them materially after they returned. He is currently doing that also. I have no empirical evidence of their heart condition. All I can do is wait to see Malachi 4 fulfilled, when Israel will be divided in two: those who fear the Lord, and the arrogant evil-doers. That may happen very soon. I don't know.

Past tense.....they were “holy people” but not “holy” in their conduct....only in their purpose.....to produce God’s Messiah....the one that Israel was expecting to come and liberate them from the oppressive yoke of Rome and to re-establish them as God holy nation of priests in his kingdom.....they, of course were dreaming!

Some understand the adjective "holy" as a descriptive adjective, giving more information about the quality of a person's character, attitude or lifestyle. I suppose that one could argue that Israel was never "holy" in that sense. But when God refers to Israel as his holy people, the adjective "holy" is classifying, assigning Israel to a class of people to be known as "the family line that God chose to be his people."

This background to this classification comes from ancient polytheism. In that view, more than one god existed, and each god controlled a particular territory of land. When countries went to war, their conception of war included a battle between gods, and when the strongest god would prevail over the weaker god, then his people would also prevail over the other people.

For instance, The defeat of Yahweh was the reason for the Babylonian captivity in the view of the ancients. However, according to Israel's prophets, Yahweh allowed his people to be taken into captivity as a punishment for violating the Sabbaths. To suggest that a foreign god can defeat Yahweh is blaspheme.

The prophet Isaiah picks up this theme in his writtings.

Isaiah 52:4-6

For thus says the Lord God, “My people went down at the first into Egypt to reside there; then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what do I have here,” declares the Lord, “seeing that My people have been taken away without cause?” Again the Lord declares, “Those who rule over them howl, and My name is continually blasphemed all day long. Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, ‘Here I am.’”​

God sends his people into captivity as a punishment. While they reside in foreign lands, their captors say that Israel was taken away without cause, blaspheming the name of Yahweh all day long. God DID have cause to punish Israel, and he used Egypt and Assyria to serve that purpose. From Egypt and Assyria's perspective, they defeated Israel's god and took them as slaves for their own purposes.

Paul brings Israel's leaders under condemnation in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 2:21-24
. . . you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

What is the point of all of this? The adjective "holy" is a classification, not a description. The people of Israel are "holy" because God chose them to be his people. They are holy, whether righteous or unrighteous, good or evil, loyal or disloyal. In a polytheistic world where nations supposedly align and serve a local god, Israel's prophets describe their god as "God almighty" and the "living God." And the other nations blaspheme when they say that their gods have defeated Yahweh.

The fact is that no Jew can trace his/her lineage, to prove that they are true descendants of Abraham. Everything was destroyed when Jerusalem was overtaken by the Roman armies in 70 CE and their genealogical records perished as well. We all know how pedantic the Jews were about their lineage, all carefully recorded so that when Messiah came, his credentials would be carefully checked against Bible prophesy.....so after the destruction of the Temple, no one claiming to be Israel’s Messiah could thereafter prove their authenticity.

This isn't a problem for my view, because Israel's prophets told Israel that he would sort them out.

Amos 9:8-9

“Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,​

And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;​

Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,”​

Declares the Lord.​

9 “For behold, I am commanding,​

And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations​

As grain is shaken in a sieve,​

But not a kernel will fall to the ground.​

Not a kernel will fall to the ground means that God will save and keep those whom he has chosen to save.

Israel is still waiting for the first appearance of their Messiah, but here we are as Christians, almost 2000 years later, waiting for his return......with Christ’s return will come a separation and judgment.....these are inescapable, “just like the days of Noah”...people get no second chances. The window of opportunity is about to close.

I agree. A separation and judgment are coming to Israel.

 

[Behold]

Where did you get this idea?

Do you own a New Testament ??


So, if you do, then just read...

John 1:10

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually, I believe that Paul used the term “Israel” as any Jew would.....to refer to his nation....but he also spoke about “the Israel of God”.
He was speaking to his fellow Christians when he said regarding some who wanted the gentile Christians to be circumcised...(Gal 6:13-16)

I understand your point of view. Nevertheless, according to verse 16, Paul seems to wish a benediction on two groups of people: 1) those who walk by this rule, and 2) the Israel of God. He wasn't implying that the church is Israel. The appellation "Israel of God" is a term Paul has given to the Israel of God's design as opposed to the Judaizers who have a different concept of "Israel." The Israel of God is different than the Israel of the Judaizers.

The natural branches were broken off and new branches were grafted in so that all became “one nation” in Christ.
The only reason to graft in new branches was to fulfill the pre-determined number who were destined to become “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in heaven. (Rev 20:6)

Do the branches represent Individual people? Some folks believe Paul is making a racial distinction with his Olive Tree metaphor. The natural branches represent individual Jews and the wild branches represent individual gentiles. I would like to propose or consider an alternative interpretation that takes account of a larger context.

First I note that Romans 11:1-6 deals with the Jews as individual people -- a remnant of the people. Then, beginning in Romans 11:7 Paul changes his focus toward the State of Israel. He says that what Israel was seeking, it has not obtained but those who were chosen obtained it. Here Paul is setting two ideas in opposition to each other. On the one hand, we have "Israel" and on the other hand we have "those who were chosen." Paul has focused on the differences between the two. The state of Israel, being run by the Sanhedrin, did not obtain God's favor but a fraction of Israel, those who were chosen, did receive it. The contrast is between a nation and it's people.

A nation is an organized, official body under the leadership of politicians and religious leaders. During the time of writing, Israel was being led by the Sanhedrin. It was the Sanhedrin who publicly rejected the house of David, putting to death David's rightful heir, Jesus Christ. David spoke of Israel's leaders when he said, "Let their table become a snare and a trap" etc. While he was king of Israel, he was constantly under attack by his own government. The same thing happened to Jesus, son of David.

There are some who argue that since the death of Christ on the cross, God has abandoned the idea of nationalism. This may seem like a reasonable conclusion, but Paul addresses this question in Romans 11:11. He speaks about the State of Israel(as opposed to the people) and asks, "Did they stumble so as to fall?" In other words, did God abandon His desire to rule over a nation of people through a future son of David as their leader? Did the death and ascension of Jesus indicate that God had abandoned his plan to rule the nation of Israel through a son of David? Paul says no.

More could be said about the rest of the chapter, but suffice it to say here, Jesus envisioned a change of authority and leadership for the house of Israel, not a destruction of Israel altogether. He tells his apostles that they, not the Pharisees, will become her new leaders. (Matthew 21:43, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, and Revelation 21:14)

How can the tree represent anything but God’s nation descended from Jacob? It was they who received God’s promises when he first released them from slavery in Egypt.

Good question and I am still a bit unsure of my interpretation of Paul's analogy. So I welcome some input. I am attempting to harmonize Paul's Olive Tree metaphor with his earlier assertion a few verses earlier.

Romans 11:15-16
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

"What does Paul mean by 'their rejection' here? Is Paul referring to God's rejection of Israel? That seems to be a plausible inference. However, Paul appears to be particularly focused on the Sanhedrin's rejection of Jesus, which ultimately brought salvation to the Gentiles. If this is the case, then Paul must be referring to a future time when Israel will accept Jesus as the Messiah." The resurrection of the State of Israel will correspond to an acceptance of Jesus as the messiah.

So the question is, how does Paul's olive tree analogy support that view? We would expect the Olive Tree metaphor to contain all of those elements: rejection of Jesus, gentile inclusion, and acceptance of Jesus.

Since it was Jacob’s descendants who would receive the privilege of producing the Messiah, the Christian scriptures concentrate on those descendants....and we have their history written for our instruction...to show us both good and bad examples of how to serve the true God correctly.


Time will tell, I’m sure....God has his nation of ‘spiritual Israel’, but I really don’t see how natural Israel has even a foot in the door since they will not jump ship at the last minute....God does not do things like that. He gives people ample opportunity to respond and then at the end, no more chances. He has given Israel 2000 years already! His patience has limits.

I agree in principle with what you said here.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In this instance, it's a question of deserving to hear the message. Who in that city deserves to hear the message? Jesus is warning them that some houses may not welcome the gospel message, while other houses will welcome the gospel message. If a house is unwelcome to hear the gospel message, then walk away and shake the dust off of your feet as a sign that you took nothing from them as payment, not even dust.

The disciples were not guided by God’s spirit only to the worthy households though....and for good reason.
The message that they brought was “good news” for some, but ‘bad news’ for others. The “worthy ones” responded and the disciples stayed in that household (enjoying the customary hospitality among Jews) to impart vital knowledge about Jesus Christ, leading to their salvation. Those not “worthy”, those who sent their visitors away without the customary washing of their feet, had the dust shaken off as a sign that they had rejected the messengers and therefore the salvation that went with their message....but the main point was that God gives everyone an equal opportunity to hear the message....it is their choice to then accept it or reject it.

But salvation is unlike rewarding meritorious action. According to Paul's account of the Gospel message in his epistle to the Romans, Paul reminds us all, Jews and Gentiles alike, that none of us are worthy of salvation. We are all worthy of damnation.

The good-news message we learned from Jesus and the Apostles is that God's gift of salvation is given freely.

It’s like someone offering a prize or reward for doing a certain difficult thing.....the offer is there, but not all will take up the offer if it puts them at risk, or if it will be humiliating to them. We see this reflected in those reality TV shows like “Survivor”. We have to ask if the reward is worth the risk? In our case it certainly is.
Those who inherit the Kingdom are “survivors”. The power working against them is huge, but no match for the power of the one offering the reward.

We can multiply verses of the Bible, where it is clear that believing God's word is a prerequisite to salvation. But we can find other verses teaching that faith itself is an aspect of God's free gift. We believe because God made it possible for us to believe.

In his second letter to the Thessalonians, Paul wrote...
“Finally, brothers, carry on prayer for us, that the word of Jehovah may keep spreading rapidly and being glorified, just as it is with you, 2 and that we may be rescued from harmful and wicked men, for faith is not a possession of all people. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the wicked one.” (2 Thess 3:1-3)

The wicked ones, motivated by the devil, will bring hardship and opposition to Christ’s disciples because as he says “faith is not a possession of all people”. What makes some faithful and others not? The roll of the genetic dice apparently.....we are the collection of DNA from many ancestors, and so we vary in personality and the personal qualities that we have inherited....add to that the imput from our upbringing and you have the resulting personality traits that make us either acceptable to God or not. He is searching among mankind, looking for those who will “worship him in spirit and truth”.

To the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus said....
“Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23-24)

If God is “looking for” those with a right heart and disposition to worship him, that is when I believe that John 6:44 and 65 comes into play. We give God something to work with......a foundation on which to build our faith. He does not issue this invitation to just anyone.

“Believing” is a prerequisite for salvation....but is “believing” the same as “faith”?.....
So, what is faith? Paul defines it in Hebrews 11:1...
“Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.”

If “faith is not the possession of all people”, then we must be the kind of “people” that Jehovah is “looking for”.....those who don’t need to see miracles, or hear others speaking in tongues and such, because we have the three main ingredients in humanity that are required in mature Christians....”faith...hope...and love”.

Does natural Israel possess these things? Spiritual Israel certainly does. Among them are the “remnant” of natural Jews whom God will save because they have already put faith in Christ Jesus as their savior. Others from among Israel may yet come to Jesus as Messiah, but the nation will not. They have never been able to hold up their end in worship to the God they promised to obey.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God said that he would bring them back to the land. He is currently doing that. He also promised to bless them materially after they returned. He is currently doing that also. I have no empirical evidence of their heart condition.

Just to add a thought here.....thinking back to Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman...this is interesting concerning “the land”....as we know Jerusalem was the capital and the centre of Jehovah’s worship.....and the place where his temple was located.
But God allowed the earthly Temple to be destroyed, and the Jewish nation to be decimated because of old bad habits.....failing to give heed to God’s prophets and silencing anyone who disagreed with what their leaders wanted to do.

Is God’s Temple completely destroyed though? Not the spiritual one....and the fact that their earthly Temple has never been rebuilt is proof that their sins are not forgiven, since they rejected their only means of salvation, and the Temple was the only place where their sacrifices could be offered.

What do you make of Jesus’ words here?
The Samaritan woman said to Jesus....
“Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26 Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (John 4:20-26)

If Israel and her holy land were a type for something much grander in the big picture, then what piece of dirt on earth could ever be “holy” with inhabitants who fail to “worship in spirit and truth”? Jerusalem today is the centre of conflict, with three “Abrahamic” faiths all laying claim to the holy mount, are fighting over it.
Where is Jehovah in that picture?
If salvation began with the Jews....it is apparent that it does not end with them. Since no earthly place will be the centre of Jehovah’s worship in the future, then our High Priest is serving his God in a heavenly Temple on another Mt Zion....”heavenly Jerusalem”. (Rev 14:1; Heb 12:22-26)

 

[Aunty Jane]

God said that he would bring them back to the land. He is currently doing that. He also promised to bless them materially after they returned. He is currently doing that also. I have no empirical evidence of their heart condition.

Just to add a thought here.....thinking back to Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman...this is interesting concerning “the land”....as we know Jerusalem was the capital and the centre of Jehovah’s worship.....and the place where his temple was located.
But God allowed the earthly Temple to be destroyed, and the Jewish nation to be decimated because of old bad habits.....failing to give heed to God’s prophets and silencing anyone who disagreed with what their leaders wanted to do.

Is God’s Temple completely destroyed though? Not the spiritual one....and the fact that their earthly Temple has never been rebuilt is proof that their sins are not forgiven, since they rejected their only means of salvation, and the Temple was the only place where their sacrifices could be offered.

What do you make of Jesus’ words here?
The Samaritan woman said to Jesus....
“Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26 Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (John 4:20-26)

If Israel and her holy land were a ‘type’ or ‘shadow’ for something much grander in the big picture, then what piece of dirt on earth could ever be “holy” with inhabitants who fail to “worship” Jehovah “in spirit and truth”? Jerusalem today is the centre of conflict, with three “Abrahamic” faiths all laying claim to the holy mount, are fighting over it.
Where is Jehovah in that picture?

If salvation began with the Jews....it is apparent that it does not end with them. Since no earthly place will be the centre of Jehovah’s worship in the future, then our High Priest is already serving his God in a heavenly Temple on another Mt Zion....in ”heavenly Jerusalem”. (Rev 14:1; Heb 12:22)

The ‘earthly things’ were pictorial of the ‘heavenly things’......there is no “Promised Land” anymore.....the whole earth is the Promised Land and mankind will go back to the beginning and see the fulfilment of God’s original purpose...to have the earth, transformed into a paradise, filled with obedient righteous people who have proven themselves ‘worthy’ of their inclusion.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus made a very plain and simple statement in Matthew 5:5: “The meek will inherit the earth.” Jesus did not invent that statement; he quoted Psalm 37:11. Many of the Jews of Jesus’ time had lost sight of the hope that Israel would be restored on earth, and the situation is the same today. The simple meaning of Matthew 5:5 has been lost due to the traditional teaching that saved people live in heaven forever after they die. Actually, what the Bible teaches is that Jesus Christ will come down from heaven to the earth, fight and win the Battle of Armageddon, and set up his kingdom on earth, which will fill the whole earth (Ps. 2:8; 72:8-11; Dan. 2:35; 7:14; Mic. 5:4; Zech. 9:10; Rev. 2:8; 19:11-21). He will set up his palace in the newly rebuilt Jerusalem, and for 1,000 years reign over all the earth. All the people who have been saved will be there because they will have been raised from the dead. Many scholars refer to this 1,000-year kingdom as the “Millennial Kingdom.” It is the first 1,000 years of the “Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about so often when he taught about “the Kingdom of God.” After the 1,000 years are over there will be a great war (Rev. 20:7-10). Then there will be the second resurrection, and after that the Everlasting City will come down from heaven to earth, and all the saved people of all time will live in it forever (Rev. 21:1-4). Thus, the future reign of Christ on earth is divided into two parts, the Millennial Kingdom, which will last 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-7), and the Everlasting Kingdom, which will last forever (Rev. 21-22).

 

[Pierac]

Do you own a New Testament ??
So, if you do, then just read...
John 1:10

Your reading the wrong translation .... Your reading is all wrong..... your missed the word "Through"... so you must have a KJV that read "by"

KJV Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
NASB Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

How is something made through... some one....

You need to read in the Greek... the word used for both is Dia

The answer is in the word “by ” better known in the Greek as “Dia”

G1223
dιά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek

1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus His Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6).

Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Pay attention.... On the day of Pentecost...the Beginning of the Church...

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).


Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Your not paying attention to Jesus....

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Now we have the truth here....

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.

Remember Jesus has a God…

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven

Your following the teachings of men.... Ignoring all scripture that does not agree with your beliefs you were taught by men...

Paul

 

[Behold]

KJV Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
NASB Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The "HIM" who created the world, is the same, in both verses.

Its Jesus. "God manifested in the Flesh".

Its this... Colossians 1:16, also.

 

[CadyandZoe]

but the main point was that God gives everyone an equal opportunity to hear the message....it is their choice to then accept it or reject it.

I agree with this except to point out that Jesus was confronted by many of his kinsmen who had closed eyes and stopped up ears. (Matthew 13:15) Those whom Jesus sent out to call the people to repentance would undoubtedly encounter many who would "keep on hearing, but will not understand; and keep on seeing, but will not perceive." The heart of his people have become dull. For this reason, the initial step in the process of salvation occurs when God softens the heart, opens the eyes, and gives understanding and insight to those he has chosen.

It’s like someone offering a prize or reward for doing a certain difficult thing.....the offer is there, but not all will take up the offer if it puts them at risk, or if it will be humiliating to them.

I don't think of salvation as winning a prize or accepting a free gift. Rather, I see salvation in terms of healing; the blind are made to have sight. There are many barriers to belief and trust in God's word. Barriers to belief are anything that prevents a person from being fully engaged in a relationship with God. Salvation isn't the acceptance of an offer as it is the guidance and encouragement from God himself. When God decides to save someone, he opens the eyes, and the ears. He opens the mind to accept new information; he opens the heart to trust God's word. And he spends time with that person in patient instruction, teaching, guidance, and encouragement. The purpose of the cross is reconciliation and once peace between God and an individual has been established, God blesses that individual with his full attention as a teacher and a mentor.

What makes some faithful and others not? The roll of the genetic dice apparently.....we are the collection of DNA from many ancestors, and so we vary in personality and the personal qualities that we have inherited....add to that the imput from our upbringing and you have the resulting personality traits that make us either acceptable to God or not. He is searching among mankind, looking for those who will “worship him in spirit and truth”.

I have a different perspective on this matter. Firstly, I do not believe that God searches among mankind for individuals to bless. Instead, He selects people to bless based on the role they will play in demonstrating His grace and love. Secondly, it is our natural tendency to mistrust God and resist His will. No one is born with a natural inclination to worship and believe in God. All of us are rebels from the very start. For this reason, according to the New Testament salvation is understood in supernatural terms, whereby God's miraculous overture is to transform a person born into rebellion into a wise, patient, kind, loving, individual with self-control, who has open eyes and a renewed mind to understand the teaching of his son.

“Believing” is a prerequisite for salvation....but is “believing” the same as “faith”?.....
So, what is faith? Paul defines it in Hebrews 11:1...
“Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.”

"I don't believe that Paul is defining faith in Hebrews 11:1. Instead of describing faith's nature, boundaries, or essence, his goal is to establish a strong connection between a person's faith and God's approval. The "not seen" thing in this context is God's approval of an individual, which we cannot know for sure. Therefore, Paul argues that our faith is evidence of God's approval since it has always been the basis of God's approval, as recorded in the Old Testament."

I believe that Paul didn't mean to say that "faith is not a possession of all people". The passage actually says, "not all the faith." Moreover, Paul talks about the faithfulness of God to contrast the harmful and wicked men with God. The difference between them is that God is faithful, and the wicked men are not. In Paul's experience, he encountered two kinds of people who claimed to promote God's will for mankind. The first group lacked fidelity with God's revealed word, whereas the second group had a high degree of fidelity with God's revealed word. Paul prays that God would continue to spread his word rapidly, so that God might be glorified instead of wicked men.

Does natural Israel possess these things? Spiritual Israel certainly does. Among them are the “remnant” of natural Jews whom God will save because they have already put faith in Christ Jesus as their savior. Others from among Israel may yet come to Jesus as Messiah, but the nation will not. They have never been able to hold up their end in worship to the God they promised to obey.

I don't think the Bible teaches that there is a "natural Israel" and there is a "spiritual Israel." As we saw in Romans 11, there is the political state of Israel that is partially hardened and contains a remnant of those who "fear the Lord."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just to add a thought here.....thinking back to Jesus conversation with the Samaritan woman...this is interesting concerning “the land”....as we know Jerusalem was the capital and the centre of Jehovah’s worship.....and the place where his temple was located.
But God allowed the earthly Temple to be destroyed, and the Jewish nation to be decimated because of old bad habits.....failing to give heed to God’s prophets and silencing anyone who disagreed with what their leaders wanted to do.

Is God’s Temple completely destroyed though? Not the spiritual one....and the fact that their earthly Temple has never been rebuilt is proof that their sins are not forgiven, since they rejected their only means of salvation, and the Temple was the only place where their sacrifices could be offered.

What do you make of Jesus’ words here?
The Samaritan woman said to Jesus....
“Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26 Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (John 4:20-26)

If Israel and her holy land were a type for something much grander in the big picture, then what piece of dirt on earth could ever be “holy” with inhabitants who fail to “worship in spirit and truth”? Jerusalem today is the centre of conflict, with three “Abrahamic” faiths all laying claim to the holy mount, are fighting over it.
Where is Jehovah in that picture?
If salvation began with the Jews....it is apparent that it does not end with them. Since no earthly place will be the centre of Jehovah’s worship in the future, then our High Priest is serving his God in a heavenly Temple on another Mt Zion....”heavenly Jerusalem”. (Rev 14:1; Heb 12:22-26)

My comment is that I don't believe in types or typology. :) I think the current strife is explicable in terms of Jesus' word to the church in Smyrna, "those who call themselves Jews." But that could be another discussion for another time. :) But I agree with your insight; Jesus was talking about something much grander in the big picture.