The end in relation to when Christ initially returns.

[Davidpt]

The angel with the golden reed is able to make measurements in Revelation 21:15. How would it be possible for the angel to make those measurements unless it was possible to measure heaven above?

As to Revelation 11:1-2, it's not involving measuring anything literal, but even if it was, obviously it would not be impossible to measure a literal temple but it would be impossible to measure endlessness. Not sure why you are comparing the 2? If you agreed that heaven above is meaning endlessness, would you still be insisting it can be measured?

 

[grafted branch]

As to Revelation 11:1-2, it's not involving measuring anything literal, but even if it was, obviously it would not be impossible to measure a literal temple but it would be impossible to measure endlessness. Not sure why you are comparing the 2? If you agreed that heaven above is meaning endlessness, would you still be insisting it can be measured?

I think you might have misread my post, I was referring to Revelation 21:15 where the angel has the reed and the measuring takes place in vs 16-17 I was not referring to Revelation 11:1-2.

As to the universe itself, whether it is infinite or finite, that is still being debated by scientists. I personally think a finite universe makes more sense but that’s not something that can be proven either way.

 

[PinSeeker]

Isn’t it “funny,” David, how folks can take Scripture and make it say what they want it to say? Well, they think they can, anyway. And that applies to both of your last two posts. I’m sure you will say the same thing to me; so be it.

In that second post, though, none of your examples (except Revelation 12:6; I’ll speak to that in a moment) come from any of the other parts of the Bible that are apocalyptic in genre, and not highly symbolic as apocalyptic literature by definition is.

Back to Revelation 12:6… you’re certainly not alone, but you’re missing the proper context there, too. The 1260 corresponds to the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. That’s three and a half years. But the way to see those things is not as hard numbers; that’s what date-setters like Harold Camping do (in his case, did, as he is no longer with us). Rather, it is to be understood as half of seven years, seven being another number used in various places in Scripture to symbolize completeness… so, not literally half, but a time cut short, in the sense of a troublesome time cut short for the sake of the elect, which we actually see Jesus saying in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. Revelation 12:6 is intimately associated with the “time, times, and half a time” of Revelation 12:14, which harkens back to Daniel’s prophecy, too, which is also apocalyptic in genre, specifically Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.

And of course we can talk about the 144 thousand of Revelation 7 and 14, too. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes… 12 is yet another number rich in meaning in all of Scripture. There will be plenty who disagree, but this is not a hard number, but is repetitive in nature… 12 times 12 times 1000… yes, I always did very well in math… :)…and as such denotes the complete completeness, if you will, of the redeemed of God’s Israel and is fleshed out as an innumerable multitude of people in both passages.

Hey, Peter uses that same word, ‘chilioi,’ in 2 Peter 3:8. His point is far beyond any hard number, much less one thousand. And Peter is referring to Psalm 90:4, there…

Using a decent concordance, I would encourage you to do a word search of “thousand.” You… might find it interesting.:)

Grace and peace to to you.

 

[Zao is life]

Jesus says, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house." Nothing there about "binding Satan's works," but rather binding him so that he can no longer ~ at least for now ~ do his "work" of deceiving the nations, which, again is properly understood as preventing the spread of the Gospel to to all nations and the people therein. He is rendered utterly powerless to do so ~ bound and sealed from doing so.

So, yes, Satan's "house" is being "plundered" ~ many of "his goods" (his children, who are dead in their sin) are being taken. Paul speaks in that same context in Ephesians 2:5, that "...God ...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved..." And Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent that from happening, or even to curb it to any degree.

Grace and peace!

Hello Pin. I'm only asking you to answer questions 7 and 8, based on the correct answers to the questions that come before them:-

1. What was Jesus doing when He used that comparison about first binding a strong man before his goods can be plundered?

2. Why did Jesus use that comparison?

More importantly,

3. Did Jesus use that parable about binding the strong man and plundering his goods before or after His crucifixion?

4. When is it that Hebrews 2:14-15 and Revelation 12:11 tell us that Satan's power was defeated - was it before or after the crucifixion?

5. What is it that destroyed Satan's power as in Hebrews 2:14-15 and Revelation 12:11, and his power over what is being mentioned?

6. Had Jesus already destroyed Satan's works as in in Hebrews 2:14-15 and Revelation 12:11 at the time He made the comparison between first needing to bind a strong man before his goods can be plundered and His casting out of demons?

Or was Jesus not merely using a simple comparison of a simple fact to make a point?

If Jesus was not merely using a simple comparison of a simple fact to make a point, then why is it that Luke 11:19 records Jesus as asking those accusers of His at the same time,

"And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges." ?

These are the questions I'd like you to answer:-

7. Do you understand why it's totally illogical to use what Jesus said about binding a strong man before his goods can be plundered as proof that Satan was bound at the time of Calvary?

FINAL QUESTION:

8. Since there are a number of New Testament verses implying the opposite of Satan having been 'bound' at Calvary (see below), do you have any New Testament reference at all that directly states that Satan was bound at the time of Calvary?​

* In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

* Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

* The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

The other Amil argument: THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN'S WORKS

This is what we have been told about this:

"Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." Hebrews 2:14-15.

"And they overcame him (the devil) because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." Revelation 12:11.

The blood of the Lamb speaks of the death of Christ.

"He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil." 1 John 3:8

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3

1. Satan's works consist primarily in the death that became part of human experience, and the sin that leads to death.

2. Apparently, according to this Amil argument, the destruction of Satan's works will last for a mere thousand (symbolic) years, only to be "reversed for a short period at the close of the thousand years" (as though his works were merely bound for "a thousand symbolic years").​

 

[PinSeeker]

The only way I see that being logical is if the GWTJ takes place outside of time. But then that presents a problem with John 12:48 if that verse involves the GWTJ. That verse says the judgment is in the last day. In the realm pertaining to outside of time there couldn't possibly be a last day. A last day involves measurable time IOW.

And I haven't even brought up any of the following yet.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems to me, Matthew 25:31 spells out the timing of this, meaning when it initially gets underway.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Obviously, this is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Therefore, it should not be incorrect to understand Matthew 19:28 like such, in light of Matthew 25:31.

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We have two options here if we agree that Matthew 19:28 begins after Matthew 25:31 is fulfilled.

Option 1) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this forever without end.

Option 2) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this for a period of time, just not forever.

If we decide Option 2) appears to be the most reasonable conclusion to arrive at, we are to believe that they only do this for 24 hours or less? Obviously, they wouldn't still be doing this when the end comes and that God is all in all. If there are a thousand years following the 2nd coming though, this allows them more time to do this, meaning they continue doing it until the thousand years expire. Which makes better sense than they just doing this for 24 hours or less. If option 1) is the more reasonable option instead, then I guess that means what I was arguing per option 2), these arguments would be moot in that case.

What is meant by judging the 12 tribes of Israel? Obviously, it can't have anything to do with co-judging with Christ during the GWTJ since that judgment will also be involving ppl having no connection with the 12 tribes of Israel whatsoever. Not to mention, only Christ(God) is worthy of judging and sentencing someone in this manner, we sure aren't.

In saying what I said, I only really meant to convey that if God wanted the final Judgement to be even instantaneous, He could certainly do it. :) Think what you want to think, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

David, Before Jesus's coming, Satan most certainly "deceived the nations"... He was able to prevent the spread of the Gospel beyond the nation of Israel (which is a people, not a land mass). Since Jesus's coming, and for sure since the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, he is absolutely unable to do that.

Come on, my friend. Come on. :)

Tell the above to those who live in countries where the law will behead you for sharing the gospel. There are many governments in this world who do everything in their power to stop the spread of the gospel (and they are Satan's tools - those nations who are still being deceived by him, because he is not bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations).

Revelation 20 says he will be bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations. Have you any real evidence that there are no nations and no people among the nations who have not been, and do not continue to be, deceived in a religious sense - i.e, by Satan, who is the deceiver from the beginning? (Note: Part of the biblical message is that Satan has been the deceiver from the beginning).

(It would be nice if you could back up your assertion regarding this with proper evidence) :), especially because the biblical evidence for Satan not being bound yet, is found in all the following biblical facts:-

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

4. If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).​

 

[ewq1938]

Come on, my friend. Come on. :)

Tell the above to those who live in countries where the law will behead you for sharing the gospel. There are many governments in this world who do everything in their power to stop the spread of the gospel (and they are Satan's tools - those nations who are still being deceived by him, because he is not bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations).

Revelation 20 says he will be bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations. Have you any real evidence that there are no nations and no people among the nations who have not been, and do not continue to be, deceived in a religious sense - i.e, by Satan, who is the deceiver from the beginning? (Note: Part of the biblical message is that Satan has been the deceiver from the beginning).

(It would be nice if you could back up your assertion regarding this with proper evidence) :), especially because the biblical evidence for Satan not being bound yet, is found in all the following biblical facts:-

"And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled."

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.

2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

4. If we look for statements in the New Testament implying that Satan was bound when Jesus died and rose again, all we will ever find is passages stating the opposite:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).​

There is also the roaring lion reference and the Devil deceiving people through the false prophet, Rev 13.

Amill presents Satan as if he is getting weaker and weaker, more and more limited but scripture shows the opposite. Rev 12 speaks of him being angry because his time is short so his wrath is greater. Definitely not a situation where he is "bound" in any stronger way. He is allowed to do more and more things reminding me of how things went in the book of Job. That is an analogy for the saints in the trib and all of it is coming.

 

[Zao is life]

You are so funny, claiming that one only needs to study to know the truth, as if Amils haven't studied. If studying was all it took, then we would all agree, would we not?

I don't agree with you but I agree with you.

don't agree with you .. about Amil. Agree with you about the rest of what you say above.

 

[Zao is life]

There is also the roaring lion reference and the Devil deceiving people through the false prophet, Rev 13.

Amill presents Satan as if he is getting weaker and weaker, more and more limited but scripture shows the opposite. Rev 12 speaks of him being angry because his time is short so his wrath is greater. Definitely not a situation where he is "bound" in any stronger way. He is allowed to do more and more things reminding me of how things went in the book of Job. That is an analogy for the saints in the trib and all of it is coming.

I agree. The very fact that Revelation 12 says he was cast to earth having great wrath, and then speaks first about his war against the woman who gave birth to the Child, and closes with his war against "the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", and then the text that follows talks about him giving the beast his seat, power and great authority,

hardly speaks about the binding of Satan in any way, shape or form.​

 

[Zao is life]

A cpl of things about this. For one, Amils typically have satan bound at the cross or soon thereafter, yet Jesus was already doing these things before Amil even has satan bound. And another thing, once satan is bound he stays bound the entire thousand years. So in what way would what you bring up here have any relevance one way or the other to his thousand year binding?

Something I have noted is this. In the example you submitted, something is being cast out of something. In Revelation 20:1-3, the opposite is happening, something is being cast into something. IOW, these passages are unrelated.

Yep. Not only Jesus, but his apostles continued to cast out demons who had already been bound with Satan, after that? What about the apostles casting out demons even after the time of the cross when apparently they could not have been there in those people since they were all bound in the abyss?​

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems to me, Matthew 25:31 spells out the timing of this, meaning when it initially gets underway.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Obviously, this is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age. Therefore, it should not be incorrect to understand Matthew 19:28 like such, in light of Matthew 25:31.

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We have two options here if we agree that Matthew 19:28 begins after Matthew 25:31 is fulfilled.

Option 1) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this forever without end.

Option 2) ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That they do this for a period of time, just not forever.

If we decide Option 2) appears to be the most reasonable conclusion to arrive at, we are to believe that they only do this for 24 hours or less? Obviously, they wouldn't still be doing this when the end comes and that God is all in all. If there are a thousand years following the 2nd coming though, this allows them more time to do this, meaning they continue doing it until the thousand years expire. Which makes better sense than they just doing this for 24 hours or less. If option 1) is the more reasonable option instead, then I guess that means what I was arguing per option 2), these arguments would be moot in that case.

What is meant by judging the 12 tribes of Israel? Obviously, it can't have anything to do with co-judging with Christ during the GWTJ since that judgment will also be involving ppl having no connection with the 12 tribes of Israel whatsoever. Not to mention, only Christ(God) is worthy of judging and sentencing someone in this manner, we sure aren't.

The 12 tribes of Israel = Jews and Gentiles in Christ, IMO.

There can be no mixture of mortals and immortals in the paradise of the Kingdom of Christ. We will all be immortals, a few ruling over the masses (i.e over the 12 tribes of Israel), IMO, because Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden the moment he was prevented from eating of the tree of life. The moment he became mortal, he was expelled from the Garden of Eden.

The final rebellion is not the rebellion of nations of mortals: After a period had passed during the sabbath rest of God, Satan was permitted into the paradise (of the Garden of Eden) so that man - who was living forever - could be tested.

= after the resurrection we will have people reigning over us = those who had forsaken all to follow Him and those who had been martyred, and those who been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast, will be reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel, i.e over all who ever died in Christ without having to go through all that, and had been resurrected from the dead.

Yes, resurrected people can be punished with no rain during the millennium for not going up from year to year to worship the King as in Zechariah 14.

Compare these things. Think about them:

Immortality is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, and who alone has (eternal) life in Himself, according to the scriptures. "You will not surely die" implies that man (the creature) has eternal life in himself, and was (and still is) the first lie.

"You will surely die".
"You will not surely die" - implying that Adam's immortality | eternal life was in himself.

And so Adam died, and his death (the first death) came to all men, because all sinned.

The 2nd death cannot come to anyone who is not alive (zao) in his own body.

It's not wrapped up until it's all wrapped up. Adam was tested while he was living forever, before he died. The sons of Adam will all be tested. Those who had forsaken all for him, had been martyred, had already been tested, are promised that the 2nd death will have no authority over them. They will reign over the 12 tribes of Israel (living, resurrected saints) for a thousand years (in Revelation 20 only those who had refused the mark and worship of the beast were promised that the 2nd death will have no authority over them).

Satan will be released again one last time. Those who (like Adam did) believe their immortality | eternal life is in themselves instead of in Christ our Creator (who alone is immortal and who alone has eternal life in Himself), and who also rebel against Christ and the authority of the others over them (who are reigning over them), will experience the 2nd death.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour those Gog/Magog armies who surround the camp of the saints. Like the beast and the false prophet before them, they will be thrown alive (zao) into the lake of fire. The devil who deceived the nations again will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Then Death and hades will deliver the rest of the dead up for the GWT - those mortals of whom it is written, "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed".

The final rebellion is not the rebellion of nations of mortals: After a period had passed during the sabbath rest of God, Satan was permitted into the paradise (of the Garden of Eden) so that man - who was living forever - could be tested.

1. Adam's death, which came to all men.
2. The last Adam's (Christ's) death and resurrection from death, which comes to all men.
3. The 2nd death.

There will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death. And there will be no mortals in the millennium. It's the sons of Adam in paradise, having received immortality in Christ (through His Spirit in them sharing with Him in HIS immortality), having been resurrected from the dead.

There can be no mixture of mortals and immortals in the paradise of the Kingdom of Christ. We will all be immortals, a few ruling over the masses (i.e the 12 tribes of Israel), IMO, because Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden the moment he was prevented from eating of the tree of life, the moment he became mortal.

So reigning over the 12 tribes of Israel has nothing to do with the last day and how long it will last, IMO.​

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. The very fact that Revelation 12 says he was cast to earth having great wrath, and then speaks first about his war against the woman who gave birth to the Child, and closes with his war against "the rest of her seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", and then the text that follows talks about him giving the beast his seat, power and great authority,

hardly speaks about the binding of Satan in any way, shape or form.​

And let's not forget he starts a war in heaven which is chronologically after the cross and Pentecost when Amill claims he is bound....that's a LONG dog leash he is bound with lol

Premill's binding including imprisonment which is exactly what scripture describes and is the kind of binding and imprisonment that actually does something. Amill's binding is really only binding as they never really talk about being imprisoned in the pit or the key that goes to a lock which means he cannot leave.

 

[grafted branch]

Premill's binding including imprisonment which is exactly what scripture describes and is the kind of binding and imprisonment that actually does something. Amill's binding is really only binding as they never really talk about being imprisoned in the pit or the key that goes to a lock which means he cannot leave.

What does Premil do with Babylon? In Revelation 18:2 it becomes the hold of every foul spirit.

If Babylon is the bottomless pit then it would seem to cause issues with Revelation 18:4 where my people are commanded to come out of her, meaning humans are in the bottomless pit.

If Babylon is not the bottomless pit then you have Satan being bound in some kind of way just as the Amil do.

 

[Davidpt]

I think you might have misread my post, I was referring to Revelation 21:15 where the angel has the reed and the measuring takes place in vs 16-17 I was not referring to Revelation 11:1-2.

As to the universe itself, whether it is infinite or finite, that is still being debated by scientists. I personally think a finite universe makes more sense but that’s not something that can be proven either way.

My bad. I clearly misread it. Don't know why I was bringing up Revelation 11:1-2 when it was Revelation 21 that you were referring to? I'll have to start over then, in regards to trying to address post #59. Don't know when I might get around to it, though.

 

[Davidpt]

Isn’t it “funny,” David, how folks can take Scripture and make it say what they want it to say? Well, they think they can, anyway. And that applies to both of your last two posts. I’m sure you will say the same thing to me; so be it.

In that second post, though, none of your examples (except Revelation 12:6; I’ll speak to that in a moment) come from any of the other parts of the Bible that are apocalyptic in genre, and not highly symbolic as apocalyptic literature by definition is.

Back to Revelation 12:6… you’re certainly not alone, but you’re missing the proper context there, too. The 1260 corresponds to the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. That’s three and a half years. But the way to see those things is not as hard numbers; that’s what date-setters like Harold Camping do (in his case, did, as he is no longer with us). Rather, it is to be understood as half of seven years, seven being another number used in various places in Scripture to symbolize completeness… so, not literally half, but a time cut short, in the sense of a troublesome time cut short for the sake of the elect, which we actually see Jesus saying in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. Revelation 12:6 is intimately associated with the “time, times, and half a time” of Revelation 12:14, which harkens back to Daniel’s prophecy, too, which is also apocalyptic in genre, specifically Daniel 7:25 and 12:7.

And of course we can talk about the 144 thousand of Revelation 7 and 14, too. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes… 12 is yet another number rich in meaning in all of Scripture. There will be plenty who disagree, but this is not a hard number, but is repetitive in nature… 12 times 12 times 1000… yes, I always did very well in math… :)…and as such denotes the complete completeness, if you will, of the redeemed of God’s Israel and is fleshed out as an innumerable multitude of people in both passages.

Hey, Peter uses that same word, ‘chilioi,’ in 2 Peter 3:8. His point is far beyond any hard number, much less one thousand. And Peter is referring to Psalm 90:4, there…

Using a decent concordance, I would encourage you to do a word search of “thousand.” You… might find it interesting.:)

Grace and peace to to you.

You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter what 1260 might represent. It doesn't even have to be meaning a literal 1260 days. The point I was making is that it proves that chilioi has to mean exactly 1000 the same way diakosioi means 200 and that hexekonta means 60. IOW, chilioi + diakosioi + hexekonta = 1260. If chilioi can mean 2000, for example, how is that reasonable since 2000 + 200 + 60 does not equal the number in question?

 

[PinSeeker]

The point I was making is that it proves that chilioi has to mean exactly 1000 the same way diakosioi means 200 and that hexekonta means 60.

I got that point loud and clear. In just the wooden "a thing is a thing" context, I agree, but what is really being said in using that thing or those things depends on the context, as I said.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Come on, my friend. Come on. :)

Tell the above to those who live in countries where the law will behead you for sharing the gospel.​

No need to read even beyond your first sentence here. When we see any reference to "nations" in the Bible, FullnessOfTheGentiles ~ Revelation 20 included ~ we should not automatically associate that with nation-states, or countries, or governments.

There are many governments in this world who do everything in their power to stop the spread of the gospel (and they are Satan's tools - those nations who are still being deceived by him, because he is not bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations).​

Same as above. Even to what you say here about governments, take China, for example. China is doing everything it can to stop the spread of the Gospel, but still, it's spreading like wildfire there. Iran is another. I am very close with some missionaries in both countries, and the Gospel is advancing with power there despite the efforts of the governments. It's hard work, for sure, but God is doing great things in those parts of the world. He is building His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

The 12 tribes of Israel = Jews and Gentiles in Christ, IMO.
​

Maybe you are right, maybe you are not. I'm not certain either way. All I know is that I don't interpret judging the 12 tribes of Israel as a bad thing. It clearly has nothing to do with the great white throne judgment, and that it clearly has something to do with after Christ has returned, unless someone wants to argue that Matthew 25:31 has already been fulfilled and that it is not meaning His bodily return in the end of this age. That verse undeniably tells us when He shall sit upon the throne of His glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


One thing that is perfectly clear here, when Jesus spoke these words He was referring to something in the future, that being this regeneration in question. Unless this regeneration began before those He was speaking to at the time died, it would not be applicable to any of them, yet He was applying it to them. The only way to apply it to them before they died is to apply Matthew 25:31 prior to their death. Preterists might apply Matthew 25:31 like that but no one else would. And since there is such a thing as a resurrection of the saved when Christ returns, this then explains how those at the time could still fufill this after they had already died.


If the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 occurs the same day Christ returns, like Amils insist, which means God is all in all, and that the great white throne judgment is now in the past, this makes nonsense out of Matthew 19:28, that this regeneration in question only involves 24 hours or less, and that those which have followed Him, they only get to sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel for 24 hours or less. I don't see any of that being reasonable.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is also the roaring lion reference and the Devil deceiving people through the false prophet, Rev 13.

Individual people yes. Nations no. :)

Amill presents Satan as if he is getting weaker and weaker, more and more limited...

This is not true. It may be a perception, somehow, but not true.

...Definitely not a situation where he is "bound" in any stronger way.

I'm not sure what this even means. But because of Jesus and His work on the cross and His resurrection, Satan is completely unable to ~ so bound from ~ deceiving the nations... preventing the spread of the Gospel to all peoples/nations.

He is allowed to do more and more things reminding me of how things went in the book of Job.

Yes, and was Job an individual, or a nation?

That is an analogy for the saints in the trib and all of it is coming.

And past, and here now... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

I got that point loud and clear. In just the wooden "a thing is a thing" context, I agree, but what is really being said in using that thing or those things depends on the context, as I said.

Grace and peace to you.

Why then do Amils insist chilioi does not mean 1000, that it means any amount except for 1000? That it can even mean 2000, 3000, etc? Because ,after all, aren't Amils applying the thousand years to an undisclosed amount of time? Thus far this thousand years is almost involving 2000 years. Why then does only 1000 + 200 +60 = 1260 if 1000 can mean 2000, etc?