Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him
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A couple of things. In fact a number of things. I will start with two...
1.) Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
2.) This is really a big deal for me as I start to realize for the first time that the foundational reason Jesus appeared was to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8), to disarm "principalities and powers" (Colossians 2:15), and to "destroy him that had the power of death" (Hebrews 2:14). The one concept that unifies all the other aspects of the ministry of Jesus Christ is his mission to spread the kingdom of God by pushing back the kingdom of darkness. It's also interesting to note that none of the devil spirits knew what was coming by the resurrection of Christ. And that would explain why they asked him continually "why have you come?"
I looked at all 15 verses and don't see it. You must not know where it is either or you would have given me the verse.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
As I mentioned, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines “the·oʹtes” in basically the same way it does thei·oʹtes, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.” So, there is a solid basis for rendering the·oʹtes as referring to quality, not personality.
Jesus can therefore be “divine” without being “deity”. I do not believe that Jesus ever admitted to being deity.
I disagree with that too......he is our savior, but there are other saviours mentioned in the scriptures as well. The word simply means a “deliverer”.
Both Jehovah and his son are saviours in that the one who sent the savior is also a savior.
The one thing I find in the scriptures is that they are never illogical.
They never contradict either, so when I come across scriptures that are contrary to another stated belief, red flags go up for me, and I go into research mode.
Never does the Bible say that Jesus is “God” (capital “G”) It refers to him as “theos” but this word in Greek means “any god or goddess or divinity”. Calling Jesus “theos” does not make him Jehovah, any more than calling satan “theos” makes him into something he is not.
Since the Greek language had no word for the monotheistic God of the Jews, who at that time was nameless (the Jews had ceased to use the divine name in their spoken word, replacing his name with titles supposedly because of the fear of “taking the Lord’s name in vain”....but more truthfully, I believe it was because they were making frivolous oaths in Jehovah’s name and then failing to honor them, thus bringing reproach on the name of God....instead of holding the guilty ones to punishment, it was easier to just make a ban on using God’s name altogether).
With no name, the true God was identified by the definite article (the) meaning THE God of the Jews.
So with that in mind, when they called Jesus “theos” they knew what it meant in Greek....”a divine mighty one”....all their gods had names, so recording things in the language of the day was not without its challenges. We are at the mercy of the old translations which I believe, through serious study, are highly inaccurate and biased in their renderings.
I believe that Jesus is what he said he was.....”the only begotten son of God”....for one to be “begotten, one has to have a ‘begetter’...one who existed before them and who produced them.
As God’s first and only direct creation, this son is unique among many “sons of God”. John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH GOD”....how can one be “with” another and yet at the same time, BE that other? That is not only illogical, but nowhere does Jesus ever say that he is God incarnate.
John 1:14 says it was the Word who “became flesh” not God. He was divine, but not deity.
Then verse 18 says “no man has seen God at any time”...how many saw Jesus?
The Bible does not have contradictions.....it’s truth is consistent.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
John 17:3 has Jesus emphasising what it means to gain everlasting life....who do we need to know?
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
“The only true God” is the Father of Jesus Christ, the one he was praying to......and we need to know who he is, and who he is NOT. Squeezing three gods into one head is not scripturally based. Jesus has a head over him....
1 Cor 11:3...
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”
Again we see the superiority of one over the other. Christ is never said to be the head of God nor is the holy spirit said to be the head of anyone.
We also need to know “the one whom he sent”...because if we do not know these two, we will not have everlasting life.....but did you notice there is only two, not three. Why is the holy spirit missing here when our everlasting life is involved?
Even in heaven, Jehovah is the God of Jesus.....there is again no mention of the holy spirit.
Rev 3:12...
“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”
Melchizedek lived in the time of Abraham....long before the nation of Israel was formed in the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Jacob (Israel).
He has no genealogy mentioned in the scriptures because there is nothing much written about him apart from the fact that he was both a king and a priest....so being without a father or mother is not literal because Melchizedek obviously had human parents and he eventually died, but since there is nothing written about his lineage or the end of his priesthood, the continuity of it is figurative and we know that Christ is also a King and a priest......something that was not possible in Israel because the Kings came for the tribe of Judah and the priests from Levi....his appointment as both king and priest like Melchizedek was from God.
He was a king of Salem which later became Jerusalem. He offered Abraham a blessing, and in turn Abraham offered him a tithe.
As above there is a connection made between the two, but figuratively. Melchizedek was a type...a shadow of what was to come in the Messiah.
The prehuman Jesus was the very first of God’s creations and his beginning goes way back before the creation of anything else. All that exists came through the agency of the son according to Col 1:15-17 and John 1:2-3.
“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”
There is no time mentioned apart from the fact that he was “the beginning of God’s creation” (Rev 3:14)
Jehovah is an infinite being who had no beginning, but creation did....his son was his first creation, which in no way demeans him as the second most important personage in existence.
Jesus is who HE says he is......
John 10:31-36...
“Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
This was an excellent opportunity for Jesus to reveal his deity if he really was God incarnate, because they were charging him with blasphemy anyway.....and yet, what did he say? Read it carefully....
Jehovah himself called the judges of Israel “gods”.....so calling himself “God’s son” was not blasphemous at all.....if he had claimed to be Almighty God they would have had grounds to execute him, but because he was not God, he died an innocent man as it was prophesied.
What the NWT did was not to remove or add the words to the scriptures, but to correct words and phrases that were incorrectly translated when the English versions were released to the public in the first place. The task was to do thorough research on the translations done by Westcott and Hort , (well respected Bible scholars), and to follow what their refined translation brought out that the KJV in particular did not.
The KJV ONLY crowd of course will jump up and down and cry foul....but it’s not hard to point out the errors.
I will address some of the changes in another post as time allows, as I like to be thorough in my responses.
This one is getting way too long....
I’ll link you to Strongs Concordance to look up all the titles that Isa 9:6 gives to Jesus......each one proving that he is not God....or see post #90....(on page 5)
Isa 9:6 Strongs
The fact is if Jesus was God, he would be immortal and could not die......mere humans cannot kill God.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Absolutely....the Bible says so. Unless he was sinless his life would not have paid the redemption price....a sinless life for a sinless life. Jesus repaid what Adam lost for all his children.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
In answer to your question....
“I know JW have revised their Bible and taken out words. I would like to know what words?”
This particular site I found on the net challenges 4 places where the NWT appears to them to be in error, so let’s take them one at a time.....
“So, what’s wrong with the NWT? In a phrase, the translators consistently have sought to conform the text to Watch Tower theology, particularly with respect to the person and work of Christ.
A few examples should make this clear.
1) Jesus as “a god”
John 1:1
This verse in the NWT 2013 reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” The Watch Tower goes to great lengths to explain why this is an accurate rendering of the Greek, citing grammatical rules and misquoting Greek scholars to support its belief that the Word is “godlike, divine, a god,” but not co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.”
This is what I have already addressed by pointing out that the grammatical rules apply, and even Strongs Concordance backs up our rendering (see post #90).....they omit the definite article as if it was never there, but the Mounce Interlinear clearly shows that it is used with reference to God in the first instance, but not in the second. The word “theos” in Greek does not pertain only to Jehovah, and according to Strongs Concordance, it means ‘any god or goddess or divine personage’....even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:3-4 because he is the self appointed “god of this world”.
Why omit such an important detail in order to prove what the rest of scripture does not support.
The NWT Rendering is more correct despite what these so called scholars say.....we can all pit one scholar over another but God knows who is correct, even if we do not. Why is it important? Because to assume that Jesus is equal to his Father is nowhere supported in scripture.....not a single vers has Jesus or his Father calling themselves equally God with the holy spirit.
2) Jesus not eternal
John 8:58
The New World Translation (2013) renders this: “Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’” Because Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity and eternality of Jesus, their translators had to change the biblical text to match their errant doctrines.
Compare the KJV: “Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
Or consider the NASB: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” And the HCSB renders it, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
Here, Jesus harks back to Exodus 3 where God reveals Himself to Moses in the burning bush as I AM, or YHWH, a unique name Jesus applies to Himself as He speaks to religious leaders of His day.”
I addressed this in post #90 as well ....
If you look up the text in the Jewish Tanakh, at Exodus 3:13-15, you will see that “I Am” is not the meaning of God’s name and in the context of the question that Jesus was answering, we see what he said and why he said it.....if you know scripture then you will understand that Jesus said “I am....” many times and in many ways about a lot of things, none of which is a statement of his deity.
In that post I quoted the Jewish Tanakh to show that God’s name has a much broader meaning than a just statement of his existence, because the Jews (as descendants of Jacob/Israel) already knew who he was, Jehovah was adding dimension to his name by saying “I will be what I will be”....IOW, Jehovah was not just saying that he existed, because his people already knew that, he was telling them that he would “be” or “become” whatever was necessary to carry out his will and purpose in connection with them, because he was going to use them to bring his Messiah into the world.
In John 8:58, Jesus is responding to a question about his age, not his status as a deity.
The wording in the NWT is therefore correct because Exodus 3:15 has no connection whatsoever with John 8:56.
“I know JW have revised their Bible and taken out words. I would like to know what words?”
This particular site I found on the net challenges 4 places where the NWT appears to them to be in error, so let’s take them one at a time.....
“So, what’s wrong with the NWT? In a phrase, the translators consistently have sought to conform the text to Watch Tower theology, particularly with respect to the person and work of Christ.
A few examples should make this clear.
1) Jesus as “a god”
John 1:1
This verse in the NWT 2013 reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” The Watch Tower goes to great lengths to explain why this is an accurate rendering of the Greek, citing grammatical rules and misquoting Greek scholars to support its belief that the Word is “godlike, divine, a god,” but not co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.”
This is what I have already addressed by pointing out that the grammatical rules apply, and even Strongs Concordance backs up our rendering (see post #90).....they omit the definite article as if it was never there, but the Mounce Interlinear clearly shows that it is used with reference to God in the first instance, but not in the second. The word “theos” in Greek does not pertain only to Jehovah, and according to Strongs Concordance, it means ‘any god or goddess or divine personage’....even satan is called “theos” in 2 Cor 4:3-4 because he is the self appointed “god of this world”.
Why omit such an important detail in order to prove what the rest of scripture does not support.
The NWT Rendering is more correct despite what these so called scholars say.....we can all pit one scholar over another but God knows who is correct, even if we do not. Why is it important? Because to assume that Jesus is equal to his Father is nowhere supported in scripture.....not a single vers has Jesus or his Father calling themselves equally God with the holy spirit.
2) Jesus not eternal
John 8:58
The New World Translation (2013) renders this: “Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’” Because Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity and eternality of Jesus, their translators had to change the biblical text to match their errant doctrines.
Compare the KJV: “Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
Or consider the NASB: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” And the HCSB renders it, “I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.”
Here, Jesus harks back to Exodus 3 where God reveals Himself to Moses in the burning bush as I AM, or YHWH, a unique name Jesus applies to Himself as He speaks to religious leaders of His day.”
I addressed this in post #90 as well ....
If you look up the text in the Jewish Tanakh, at Exodus 3:13-15, you will see that “I Am” is not the meaning of God’s name and in the context of the question that Jesus was answering, we see what he said and why he said it.....if you know scripture then you will understand that Jesus said “I am....” many times and in many ways about a lot of things, none of which is a statement of his deity.
In that post I quoted the Jewish Tanakh to show that God’s name has a much broader meaning than a just statement of his existence, because the Jews (as descendants of Jacob/Israel) already knew who he was, Jehovah was adding dimension to his name by saying “I will be what I will be”....IOW, Jehovah was not just saying that he existed, because his people already knew that, he was telling them that he would “be” or “become” whatever was necessary to carry out his will and purpose in connection with them, because he was going to use them to bring his Messiah into the world.
In John 8:58, Jesus is responding to a question about his age, not his status as a deity.
The wording in the NWT is therefore correct because Exodus 3:15 has no connection whatsoever with John 8:56.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
3) “Jesus’ blood not divine
Acts 20:28
The NWT 2013 reads: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.”
Since JWs deny the deity of Christ, they cannot allow God to shed His blood to pay our sin debt.
Consider the plainer language of the KJV: “… feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
Now this one makes me smile....as if the Supreme being needed to become a flesh and blood human to undo what Adam did to his children....what nonsense!
If we look up Acts 4:27, 30 we will see something that I guarantee that most in Christendom would never have read....
“For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed”. . . . .”30 while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
If Jesus is God, then whose servant is he?
The apostle Paul also used the roles that Jesus would play.....
Hebrews 3:1...
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus.”
To his fellow elect (saints) Paul calls Jesus “the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge” so Christ’s disciples acknowledged Jesus as having those two titles.
Was Jesus an “apostle” ? Since it means “one sent forth” he most certainly was. (John 17:3)
Is Jesus now our “high priest”? Yes again, but how can God be his own high priest? Are you getting the sense of how ridiculous Christendom’s beliefs are? They are completely illogical.
If blood needed to be shed, then what was the price of redemption? The scriptures call it a ransom, which we know is the price paid to release captives. A “redemption” emphasizes the releasing accomplished as a result of the “ransom” paid. The most significant ransom price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which made deliverance from sin and death possible for the offspring of Adam...but how does it work?
Jesus did not need to be God in order to pay the price of something a mere mortal had done. All Jesus needed to be was sinless...a sinless life offered for the sinless life Adam took away from his children.....Jesus could pay the ransom because he was not God. Since God is immortal, he cannot die, so he could not pay the ransom price himself...only a mortal human could pay the price and that human had to be sinless. God sent his son, who willingly offered his life for ours......That cancelled out any other human offering to sacrifice their life instead.....because no other human was sinless.
4) Jesus a secondary creator
Colossians 1:17
The NWT 2013 reads: “Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus is the first of Jehovah’s created beings, who then created all “other” things. Again, the biblical text is bent to match JW doctrine.
The KJV reads: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
The NASB reads: “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
And the HCSB reads: “He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.”
No English translation distorts the true meaning of this verse like the NWT.”
LOL....no one distorts scripture like Christendom does. I was raised in Christendom, but until I actually started to study the Bible, I took for granted what my translation said and never questioned it.....but once I did, my whole perspective changed....I now love to do research on all topics because I owe it to myself to know the truth from my own research. So much is available online, that no one has an excuse for ignorance in this very challenging time in history.
Let’s read that passage in context...speaking of Jesus, Paul writes....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.
Now, even if the word “other” is not in the original text, nothing changes if you add it, in fact it enhances the text.
Jesus in his pre-human existence is “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”, making him the first created being.
He is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)
“By means of him (through the agency of the son) the Father created all things in heaven and on earth.
“He is BEFOR ALL THINGS and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
How does the KJV render that passage?....
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Seems to me that the KJV says more or less exactly what the NWT says. If Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature”....then he himself is a creature (ktisis) “.
From Strongs....
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου.
2. equivalent to κτίσμα, creation i. e. thing created
..a created being.”
If all things were “created by him and for him”, does that mean that God did all this for himself?
If he is “before all things” who or what was created before him? He was “in the beginning WITH GOD, so what “beginning” is this?.......can someone please explain why the word “other” is out of place? It alters nothing.
I say, question everything....and ask God to reveal his truth to you.....our own “truth” is worthless if all it does is make salvation all about us....salvation was to be shared....inviting others to come to a knowledge of why we are here, and where we are going....explaining why is the world so full of violence and immorality.
God tells us exactly why, and what he has done and is doing right now to bring about the fulfilment of Revelation 21:2-4.....the coming of God’s Kingdom....what Jesus taught us to pray for.
Acts 20:28
The NWT 2013 reads: “Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son.”
Since JWs deny the deity of Christ, they cannot allow God to shed His blood to pay our sin debt.
Consider the plainer language of the KJV: “… feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
Now this one makes me smile....as if the Supreme being needed to become a flesh and blood human to undo what Adam did to his children....what nonsense!
If we look up Acts 4:27, 30 we will see something that I guarantee that most in Christendom would never have read....
“For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed”. . . . .”30 while you stretch out your hand for healing and while signs and wonders occur through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
If Jesus is God, then whose servant is he?
The apostle Paul also used the roles that Jesus would play.....
Hebrews 3:1...
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge—Jesus.”
To his fellow elect (saints) Paul calls Jesus “the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge” so Christ’s disciples acknowledged Jesus as having those two titles.
Was Jesus an “apostle” ? Since it means “one sent forth” he most certainly was. (John 17:3)
Is Jesus now our “high priest”? Yes again, but how can God be his own high priest? Are you getting the sense of how ridiculous Christendom’s beliefs are? They are completely illogical.
If blood needed to be shed, then what was the price of redemption? The scriptures call it a ransom, which we know is the price paid to release captives. A “redemption” emphasizes the releasing accomplished as a result of the “ransom” paid. The most significant ransom price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which made deliverance from sin and death possible for the offspring of Adam...but how does it work?
Jesus did not need to be God in order to pay the price of something a mere mortal had done. All Jesus needed to be was sinless...a sinless life offered for the sinless life Adam took away from his children.....Jesus could pay the ransom because he was not God. Since God is immortal, he cannot die, so he could not pay the ransom price himself...only a mortal human could pay the price and that human had to be sinless. God sent his son, who willingly offered his life for ours......That cancelled out any other human offering to sacrifice their life instead.....because no other human was sinless.
4) Jesus a secondary creator
Colossians 1:17
The NWT 2013 reads: “Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus is the first of Jehovah’s created beings, who then created all “other” things. Again, the biblical text is bent to match JW doctrine.
The KJV reads: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
The NASB reads: “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
And the HCSB reads: “He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.”
No English translation distorts the true meaning of this verse like the NWT.”
LOL....no one distorts scripture like Christendom does. I was raised in Christendom, but until I actually started to study the Bible, I took for granted what my translation said and never questioned it.....but once I did, my whole perspective changed....I now love to do research on all topics because I owe it to myself to know the truth from my own research. So much is available online, that no one has an excuse for ignorance in this very challenging time in history.
Let’s read that passage in context...speaking of Jesus, Paul writes....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.
Now, even if the word “other” is not in the original text, nothing changes if you add it, in fact it enhances the text.
Jesus in his pre-human existence is “the firstborn of ALL CREATION”, making him the first created being.
He is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)
“By means of him (through the agency of the son) the Father created all things in heaven and on earth.
“He is BEFOR ALL THINGS and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”
How does the KJV render that passage?....
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
Seems to me that the KJV says more or less exactly what the NWT says. If Jesus is “the firstborn of every creature”....then he himself is a creature (ktisis) “.
From Strongs....
1. the act of creating, creation: τοῦ κόσμου.
2. equivalent to κτίσμα, creation i. e. thing created
..a created being.”
If all things were “created by him and for him”, does that mean that God did all this for himself?
If he is “before all things” who or what was created before him? He was “in the beginning WITH GOD, so what “beginning” is this?.......can someone please explain why the word “other” is out of place? It alters nothing.
I say, question everything....and ask God to reveal his truth to you.....our own “truth” is worthless if all it does is make salvation all about us....salvation was to be shared....inviting others to come to a knowledge of why we are here, and where we are going....explaining why is the world so full of violence and immorality.
God tells us exactly why, and what he has done and is doing right now to bring about the fulfilment of Revelation 21:2-4.....the coming of God’s Kingdom....what Jesus taught us to pray for.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
@Aunty Jane
I like someone who studies and researches what they believe. I do too. Do JW's believe in the Holy Spirit's gifts? What supernatural gift(s) has/have God given you?
I like someone who studies and researches what they believe. I do too. Do JW's believe in the Holy Spirit's gifts? What supernatural gift(s) has/have God given you?
God told Moses you can't look at me because if you do it will kill you. And that causes me to believe that looking at God is lethal.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
But doesn't your Bible tell you that Moses was allowed to see His back? Ours does. BTW are you JW or Mormon? That's okay if you are if you believe and acknowledge at lease that Jesus is your Savior.
Do you believe you can be filled with the Holy Spirit and receive the gifts of Mark 16:16-18, and or 1 Corinthians 12?
Also, are you sinless? Does your church teach this. I don't mean sinless perfection, but sinless. And do you also believe that you can also be perfect when you are also mature in all the fruit of the Spirit?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Do you believe you can be filled with the Holy Spirit and receive the gifts of Mark 16:16-18, and or 1 Corinthians 12?
Also, are you sinless? Does your church teach this. I don't mean sinless perfection, but sinless. And do you also believe that you can also be perfect when you are also mature in all the fruit of the Spirit?
1.) We don't know what God showed Moses when he mooned him.
2.) I'm not a JW or Mormon and I never was.
3.) I don't have a church and I don't know what sinless is.
4.) My Bible does not say I can be perfect. It says I cannot sin.
Much of your questions can be answered if you read a few pages I wrote on walking by the spirit that can be viewed here...
www.carb-fat.com/walking-by-the-spirit.html
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No, we do not believe that the gifts are still operative...they were given in the first century, but were not continued after the death of the apostles.
Once they had accomplished the purpose for which they were sent, they were withdrawn. Why? Because they served a dual purpose...
1) To show the Jewish people that God had shifted his favour over to the disciples of Christ, (the Messiah that the majority of them rejected...)
2) Each of the gifts was a demonstration of how they would be used when God’s kingdom “comes” to rule the redeemed human race. (Rev 21:2-4)
Along with those reasons, there was something to come in the future that would confuse and deceive many who still wanted to see the miracles.....Paul called this the traits of a spiritual infant.....there were more mature aspects to becoming a “Christian” than seeing supernatural events....”Faith, Hope and love” would be needed to stand strong in the face of the strong opposition that was to come. (1 Cor 13:8-13) A weak faith based on what is seen would not stand.
Another point is that the devil was also going to use his power to deceive people with fake miracles, so as to mislead them. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
If the devil was the only one doing these “signs and wonders” then true Christians would see right through them as weak imitations of what what God’s spirit accomplished in the first century.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No one is sinless in this world, not even the elect. Peter was a chosen apostle and yet he continued to make big mistakes even after Pentecost when the disciples received the holy spirit ....
We have strong reasons NOT to sin, but as Jesus said...”the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.
We have to contend with these weaknesses in our imperfect flesh, and try our best, because if Peter is an example of human weakness, Jesus taught him that he could overcome these weaknesses if he prayed for God to help him to do so. Making mistakes is human, but recognising them and asking God’s forgiveness on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice, will yield good fruitage.
God wants to encourage us...not discourage us, or burden us with guilt. We can right any wrong we commit with a repentant heart and spirit. God is a wonderful forgiver.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Did you know there are two types of sins? They are sins unto death and sins not unto death. Jesus took away sins unto death/lawlessness out of our nature. Then He prunes sins not unto death out of us so that eventually in this lifetime never stumble.
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