SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS? A FALSE DICHOTOMY

[FaithWillDo]

Jesus started a single religion, i believe it died out after Jesus, apostles and followers were all murdered, 2Thess 2:3 rose in its place( the religion that came out of Rome=Catholicism and her hundreds of branches(protestants)--Here in these last days, Jesus' 1 religion came back.

Dear Keiw,
Yes, the true church died after the Apostles died. As you stated, 2Thes 2:3 mentions the coming apostasy. Paul also mentions it here:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul verbally warned his churches for 3 years (with tears) about what was about to befall them. Satan took over the churches via the spirit of anti-Christ. None of the churches were spared. Paul was very distressed by this prophecy. It was a very BIG DEAL to him!

However, I don't believe the true church ever completely died. The Elect, down through this age, have been removed from the apostate church before they physically died. This occurred when Christ "came again" to each of them and gave them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Baptism of the Spirit). After they received the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness was healed and they could then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). This is also when the man of sin is revealed and they find that they are this man of sin (mixing works with faith under Satan's indwelling influence). Immediately after the Elect believer understands what has happened, judgment fall on them to remove the spirit of anti-Christ and destroy their carnal nature. After this judgment is finished, the Elect believer will be converted and saved. In this "born again" state, they will never fall prey to Satan again. This is how Christ has preserved His church throughout this age.

Joe

 

[Keiw]

Dear Keiw,
Yes, the true church died after the Apostles died. As you stated, 2Thes 2:3 mentions the coming apostasy. Paul also mentions it here:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul verbally warned his churches for 3 years (with tears) about what was about to befall them. Satan took over the churches via the spirit of anti-Christ. None of the churches were spared. Paul was very distressed by this prophecy. It was a very BIG DEAL to him!

However, I don't believe the true church ever completely died. The Elect, down through this age, have been removed from the apostate church before they physically died. This occurred when Christ "came again" to each of them and gave them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Baptism of the Spirit). After they received the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness was healed and they could then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). This is also when the man of sin is revealed and they find that they are this man of sin (mixing works with faith under Satan's indwelling influence). Immediately after the Elect believer understands what has happened, judgment fall on them to remove the spirit of anti-Christ and destroy their carnal nature. After this judgment is finished, the Elect believer will be converted and saved. In this "born again" state, they would never fall prey to Satan again. This is how Christ has preserved His church throughout this age.

Joe

The God of Israel=the Abrahamic God=a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah), Catholicism created a trinity at their councils. So who do you think continued serving the Abrahamic God back then?

 

[Jack]

The God of Israel=the Abrahamic God=a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah), Catholicism created a trinity at their councils. So who do you think continued serving the Abrahamic God back then?

It sure wasn't JW's who attack our Christian Bible just like the Devil!

 

[Titus]

Jesus started a single religion, i believe it died out after Jesus, apostles and followers were all murdered, 2Thess 2:3 rose in its place(

No Sir, the Lords church is still here from the beginning 33ad to the present
Gods plan was to establish His church. No man could stop that.
How weak God must be if men can overcome His preplanned purpose built church!!!
Where do you get this idea that every single born again christian was murdered?
Where does the Bible teach that?
The church was already established before the apostles died.
Do you know the apostles said the churches work is to carry on the preaching of the gospel to the lost?

2Thessalonians 2:3,
- let no one deceive you by any means for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition
During the reformation the protestant leaders, Luther, Calvin believed the son of perdition, man of sin is referring to the catholic churches head, i.e. pope

Possible this is the correct meaning of Paul's words here.
Very similar to,
1Timothy 4:1,3
- now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons
Forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth

2Thessalonians 2:4,
- who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sits as God

pope claims to be God on earth.
All very similar to what catholicism has practiced.

During the entire uprising of this apostate church i.e. catholic church, the Lords church was here on earth.
And continues to this day, unless you dont have faith in what Jesus says,
Matthew 16:18-19,
- and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(church)

Apostles taught the church is to be the light of the world.
Without the church the world is in darkness with no light source to guide them into all truth

1Timothy 3:14-15,
- but if I am delayed I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth

The church is the pillar and ground of the truth.
This expression means that the church is that which stands under the  truth it is that which supports, which holds up before the world the saving truth of Gods word.

Jesus is the light, John 9:5,
- as long as I am in the world I am the light of the world

The church is the source for the light of Christ today,
Revelation 1:20,
- The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand and the seven golden lamp stands the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lamp stands which you saw are the seven churches

Jesus is teaching symbolism of a lamp stand which is the source of light is the church.
Thus the light of Christ is proclaimed by or through the work of the church.

It is the work of the church to see that the light of Christ shines on all men,
The church you can visibly see on earth is the saved in Christ known as the body of Christ.
Matthew 5:16,
- let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

1Corinthians 12:27,
- Now you are the body of Christ and members individually

The Lords church is here to stay. No man or even the gates of hades can overcome it.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

AMEN @Titus

They ( those whom belong to their father, Satan) thought by killing the "Lamb of God" the prince of this world's kingdom would reign forever in destroying man; God's creation!

How foolish, satan even thought he would usurp God in his heavenly kingdom,.....but was cast out.

By killing the word of God, they insured that the gift of salvation through JESUS would be offered to all men.

He is the head of the body, the church in this world is indeed his light that shines forth this wonderful gift to ALL, WHOSOEVER, WILL LET THEM COME !

God's plan will be complete when he says as Jesus said "It is finished" !.............Amen

 

[Titus]

I agree that the Trinity Doctrine is false.

John 8:58 Jesus states He is eternal,
- Jesus said to them, Most assuredly I say to you before Abraham was I AM

I AM present tense which in the Greek language indicates continuous action.

John 8:58
John 10:33,
- the Jews answered Jesus saying for a good work we do not stone You but for blasphemy and because You being a man make Yourself  God

Proof
Exodus 3:14,
- and God said to Moses I AM WHO I AM
thus you shall say to the sons of Israel I AM has sent me

Gods self assigned name of eternal existence is translated in the LXX (Greek OT)
As ego eimi ho on (I am the one who is)
Jesus' description of Himself in John 8:58 ego eimi
Is a claim of Deity.
John 8:58 ego eimi
Exodus 3:14 ego eimi ho on
Both are continuous action, meaning eternal existence.
The Jews understood this and attempted to stone Jesus to death.

Jesus declared Himself the First and the Last Revelation 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
Alpha and Omega Revelation 22:13
Same Phrases God describes Himself in Old Testament
Isaiah 44:6; 41:4; 48:12
God describes Himself in the New Testament,
Revelation 1:8,
- I am the Alpha and the Omega the Beginning and the End says the Lord who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty

 

[amigo de christo]

Dear Keiw,
Yes, the true church died after the Apostles died. As you stated, 2Thes 2:3 mentions the coming apostasy. Paul also mentions it here:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul verbally warned his churches for 3 years (with tears) about what was about to befall them. Satan took over the churches via the spirit of anti-Christ. None of the churches were spared. Paul was very distressed by this prophecy. It was a very BIG DEAL to him!

However, I don't believe the true church ever completely died. The Elect, down through this age, have been removed from the apostate church before they physically died. This occurred when Christ "came again" to each of them and gave them the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the Baptism of the Spirit). After they received the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness was healed and they could then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves (Mat 24:15). This is also when the man of sin is revealed and they find that they are this man of sin (mixing works with faith under Satan's indwelling influence). Immediately after the Elect believer understands what has happened, judgment fall on them to remove the spirit of anti-Christ and destroy their carnal nature. After this judgment is finished, the Elect believer will be converted and saved. In this "born again" state, they would never fall prey to Satan again. This is how Christ has preserved His church throughout this age.

Joe

The true church has never died . Apostacy has run amuck, but the true lambs dont heed nor follow them .
The true church has been , though often tormented , rejected , persecuted , hunted and hated
because the true lambs WONT CONFORM to the HARLOT and her ways . The ho is gonna mow again too .
That harlot has killed before , that harlot will kill again just as soon as her ecumincal lie has ran its course to
gather the world , the sold out faiths , and religoins to unify as one and then they will come as one against the true lambs .
A massive tribulation is coming , the hour of our betrayal is at hand and it cometh in the name of a false love .

 

[Keiw]

No Sir, the Lords church is still here from the beginning 33ad to the present
Gods plan was to establish His church. No man could stop that.
How weak God must be if men can overcome His preplanned purpose built church!!!
Where do you get this idea that every single born again christian was murdered?
Where does the Bible teach that?
The church was already established before the apostles died.
Do you know the apostles said the churches work is to carry on the preaching of the gospel to the lost?

2Thessalonians 2:3,
- let no one deceive you by any means for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition
During the reformation the protestant leaders, Luther, Calvin believed the son of perdition, man of sin is referring to the catholic churches head, i.e. pope

Possible this is the correct meaning of Paul's words here.
Very similar to,
1Timothy 4:1,3
- now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons
Forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth

2Thessalonians 2:4,
- who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he sits as God

pope claims to be God on earth.
All very similar to what catholicism has practiced.

During the entire uprising of this apostate church i.e. catholic church, the Lords church was here on earth.
And continues to this day, unless you dont have faith in what Jesus says,
Matthew 16:18-19,
- and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(church)

Apostles taught the church is to be the light of the world.
Without the church the world is in darkness with no light source to guide them into all truth

1Timothy 3:14-15,
- but if I am delayed I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth

The church is the pillar and ground of the truth.
This expression means that the church is that which stands under the  truth it is that which supports, which holds up before the world the saving truth of Gods word.

Jesus is the light, John 9:5,
- as long as I am in the world I am the light of the world

The church is the source for the light of Christ today,
Revelation 1:20,
- The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand and the seven golden lamp stands the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lamp stands which you saw are the seven churches

Jesus is teaching symbolism of a lamp stand which is the source of light is the church.
Thus the light of Christ is proclaimed by or through the work of the church.

It is the work of the church to see that the light of Christ shines on all men,
The church you can visibly see on earth is the saved in Christ known as the body of Christ.
Matthew 5:16,
- let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven

1Corinthians 12:27,
- Now you are the body of Christ and members individually

The Lords church is here to stay. No man or even the gates of hades can overcome it.

Catholicism was not there in 33 ce. The religion that was, served the Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah). No trinity god was served until Catholicism added the holy spirit as part of a trinity godhead in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople. God didn't change, the darkness changed him=2 Thess 2:3

 

[Titus]

No trinity god was served until Catholicism added the holy spirit as part of a trinity godhead in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople

Genesis 1:26,
- Then God said let Us make man in Our image according to  Our likeness

Holy Spirit in Old Testament,
1Samuel 16:14,
- But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him

Father, Son, Holy Spirit all in diferent locations
Mark 1:9-11,
- it came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan
And immediately coming up from the water He saw the heavens parting and the Descending upon Jesus like a dove(came down from the heavens to Jesus)
Then a voice came from heaven(Father is still in heaven) You are MY beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

Father in heaven, Holy Spirit descending to earth, Jesus on the earth,

Holy Spirit and the Father are in two different locations

Why is the Father, Holy Spirit and the Son mentioned in both Old and New testaments if the catholics made up the Holy Spirit?

until Catholicism added the holy spirit as part of a trinity godhead in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople.

 

[Keiw]

Genesis 1:26,
- Then God said let Us make man in Our image according to  Our likeness

Holy Spirit in Old Testament,
1Samuel 16:14,
- But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing spirit from the Lord troubled him

Father, Son, Holy Spirit all in diferent locations
Mark 1:9-11,
- it came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan
And immediately coming up from the water He saw the heavens parting and the Descending upon Jesus like a dove(came down from the heavens to Jesus)
Then a voice came from heaven(Father is still in heaven) You are MY beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

Father in heaven, Holy Spirit descending to earth, Jesus on the earth,

Holy Spirit and the Father are in two different locations

Why is the Father, Holy Spirit and the Son mentioned in both Old and New testaments if the catholics made up the Holy Spirit?

Let us( YHWH(Jehovah) and his master worker( Jesus) prov 8
I didnt say the Catholics made up the holy spirit. I said they added the holy spirit as part of a trinity god in 381 ce, thus no trinity was served prior. Even in their own encyclopedia it says the apostolic fathers knew nothing of God being a trinity.
The Abrahamic God Israel served and serves was always a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)--The Israelite religion however does not serve him correctly, they reject Jesus.

 

[Jack]

Kingdom Hall puppet alert!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Bible Alert!:

The Lord Jesus Christ Is God Almighty!!

Amen.

 

[Titus]

Isaiah 9:6,
- for unto us a Child is born unto us a Son is given and the government will be upon His shoulder and His name will be called wonderful councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

John 14:27,
- Peace I leave with you My peace I give to you not as the world gives do I give to you let not your heart be troubled neither let it be afraid

John 20:28,29
- And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God

Jesus does not rebuke Thomas for using His name in vain because he did not.
- Thomas because you have seen Me you have believed Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed

It was Jewish custom to call God "my God and my Lord"

Psalm 35:23,24
- stir up thyself and awake to my judgment even unto my cause  my God and my Lord

- judge me, O Lord my God

The Lord and God of the Psalmist is the same Lord and God of Thomas.

The  Word is the Light Psalm 119:105,
- Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path

Jesus is the light of the world,
Psalm 27:1,
- The Lord is my light and my salvation whom shall I fear the Lord is the strength of my life of whom shall I be afraid

John 8:12,
- then Jesus spoke to them again saying, I am the light of the world he whom follows Me shall not walk in darkness but have the light of life

Therefore the Word and Light is Jesus
1John 1:5,
- this is the message which ye have heard from Him and declare to you that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all

John 1:4,5-9
- In Him was life and the life was the light of men
- and the  Light shines in darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it
- there was a man sent from God named John
- this man came for a witness to bear witness of the  Light that all through him might believe
- that was the true  Light which gives  light to every man coming into the world
John 1:1,2;14
- in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God
- He was in the beginning with God

John 1:14

- and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth

 

[Keiw]

Bible Alert!:

The Lord Jesus Christ Is God Almighty!!

Amen.

Jesus didn't know it-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--In fact his REAL teachers taught the same-2Cor 1:3, Eph 1:3, Col 1:3, 1Pet 1:3--The Father is Jesus' God just like he is our God.

 

[Keiw]

I don't Kingdom Hall allows JW's to quote Scriptures! Maybe because even the JW Bible NWT says Kingdom Hall is WRONG!

How come you never have an answer for the bible truths i show? Then you share your twistings, it is sad Jack, because i know you want to be a follower of Christ but are being mislead.

 

[Jack]

How come you never have an answer for the bible truths i show? Then you share your twistings, it is sad Jack, because i know you want to be a follower of Christ but are being mislead.

You never have any Bible truths. You spew what Kingdom Hall tells you to spew.

 

[Titus]

How come you never have an answer for the bible truths i show? Then you share your twistings, it is sad Jack, because i know you want to be a follower of Christ but are being mislead.

Why are you not a believer like Thomas? Your Jesus is not Thomas' Jesus!!!
1Corinthians 11:1-4,
- for I am jealous for you with godly jealousy for I have betrothed you to one husband that I may present you as chaste virgin to Christ
But I fear lest somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness so your minds may be corrupted from the  simplicity that is in Christ
For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received or a different gospel

The serpent deceived you

 

[Titus]

Jesus didn't know it-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--In

The Father is Jesus' God just like6 he is our God.

What's wrong with Jesus referring to His Father as His God? Jesus' Father is God!!!

Let's say your father was literally God like in Jesus' case.
You could refer to your dad as Father or as God. Both would be correct.

And since you are begotten of God in this made up case. You would literally be a Son of God and the God.

John 20:17,
- I am ascending to My Father and your Father and to My God and Your God

This verse does not disprove Jesus' deity.

Revelation 3:12,
- I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God(Father)
I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God the New Jerusalem
which comes down out of heaven from My God and I will write on him My new name


Is Jesus' Father not God? Yes He is, so that's why Jesus addresses Him as both His Father and His God.
And since Jesus' Father is literally God that makes Jesus God, the Son of God

Father God
Son God
Holy Spirit God

 

[Titus]

How come you never have an answer for the bible truths i show? Then you share your twistings, it is sad Jack, because i know you want to be a follower of Christ but are being mislead.

Since you are born of a man and women.
That makes you a man

If you were born of God(Father)
And of women(Mother)
That would make you A Full man not God right?

Wrong, you would be God and man.

 

[Keiw]

You never have any Bible truths. You spew what Kingdom Hall tells you to sp Here is a teaching from Jesus in EVERY translation on earth--Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--Exactly what the real teachers who have Jesus teach. The false teachers teach to seek Jesus' righteousness because they do not listen to him.

Here is a teaching from Jesus in every translation on earth that his real teachers teach the flock=Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--teachers lead by the darkness that do not listen to Jesus teach to seek Jesus' righteousness first. What do your teachers teach?