RT's illegitimate language use

[covenantee]

According to some the King of the Jews and Lion of the tribe of Judah is antisemitic, apparently.

@covenantee If I'm antisemitic for believing Jews who do not believe in Jesus have no part in the election of Abraham's seed, what am I because I believe the same regarding Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus. Anti-catholic, or anti U.N (bearing in mind that the word catholic means "universal")?

Bad example because I'm anti the catholic and political bodies that go under those titles, but I'm not anti-Jew.​

I'm antitalmudic. So are you.

I'm not antisemitic. Neither are you.

If antiChristian is a generalized description of those who reject Christ, then Christians are antiantiChristian. :)

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Supposed to be" is a good way to phrase it. There was and always has been a remnant from the nation of Israel who had like faith as Abraham. Then there is the rest who are never of the faith of Abraham. The remnant has always been "Israel of God" that come from every nation of the world, those who remain in unbelief never cease to be Israel, but neither shall they ever belong to "Israel of God."

Again, I don't believe that definition of "Israel" fits the biblical record, and is being imposed upon it by a particular NT theology. "Israel" has always been all Israel, believing or not. It is well known that Israel has always been at different stages of development and at different proportions of faith.

For example, how much faith was in Israel from the time they approached the Red Sea? I would suppose that most of them lacked faith to escape the Egyptians? However, many survived and crossed over. Later, many in Israel were pruned because of the rebellious kind of unbelief, but many others who lacked faith persevered and were less rebellious.

So lacking faith did not delegitimize portions of Israel--they remained part of Israel. And even if the whole nation fell into rebellious faith and were cut off from the land, being put into exile, the children of those same rebels were restored to the promised land.

Ideally they all have faith all the time. That simply isn't the reality. But never were they considered Israel one moment and non-Israel another. There were always Israel.

Paul just makes the point that God's sense of Israel's development and fulfillment required faith, even if it has taken years to get there. They don't stop being Israel just because they aren't there yet.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You claim the basis of your opinions are derived from the Bible, truly I have no idea where from the Bible you have arrived at this opinion. Unless you can prove what you allege from the Bible, we should assume your opinions are simply that, your opinions!

I've now explained this several times. I will explain it again. This is not just a biblical problem, but more, a language problem. Common sense use of the word "Israel" in the Bible suggests it is the literal nation, consisting of a large group traditionally based in the land of Canaan, and placed in covenant with God by the Law of Moses. That is what the word "Israel" means.

When one replaces this meaning of "Israel" with another allegorized meaning of the word 'Israel," it takes on a foreign sense that is not natural to the context. I could quote all of the verses in the world from the Bible. But if you read "International Church" into the word "Israel," you will not appreciate my argument.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then why were the disciples mandated to go unto all the nations of the world preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God?

The Kingdom of God, implemented via the Covenant of Moses, was transferred from Israel to the Roman Empire via the Covenant of Christ. The Gospel is preached to both Jew and Gentile, knowing that the Jews will only be a small remnant of faith throughout the NT era.

This is an long pause in the history of believing Israel until they can be restored via judgment at the return of Christ. In the meantime, Gentile nations have their opportunity to be nations of faith, just as Israel had time to do the same.

In the end all nations will end up in the same place, with remnants of faith awaiting Christ's judgment to reform the nations.

I believe there is a difference between having the Kingdom via a Covenant and seeing the Kingdom actually come. What was transferred from Israel to Rome was a temporal form of the Kingdom, with a measure of divine rule being implemented through secular rulers. But what was being preached was the actual coming of the Kingdom at the return of Christ.

Both aspects of the Kingdom were important. And both aspects were being preached by the Apostles. One had to do with conversion. And conversion was the preparation for the next, the realization of the Kingdom. The message is similar to what it was for John the Baptist: "Prepare the way for the Lord. Prepare ye the way for the Kingdom." You get prepared for the Kingdom by conversion and signing on for membership in the Kingdom. It is the building of a Christian society.

 

[Keraz]

Judah, the Jewish people have not been a part of Israel since the 10 Northern tribes refused the pay King Rehoboam's exorbitant taxes. They have not, as yet rejoined as they will do as Prophesied in Ezekiel 37:15-28

That the present State of Israel has taken the name of Israel, does not put them back with their brethren from ten tribes of Israel, or make them the true Israel of God.
The Jews remain in the House of Judah and Amos 2:4-5 describes the punishment for their sins. Amos 2:6, right thru to the end of the Book of Amos, is the Lord's Plans for the House of Israel. Who are at present scattered among the nations.
They are the people Jesus was sent to save and we Christian peoples prove His success.

 

[rwb]

Again, I don't believe that definition of "Israel" fits the biblical record, and is being imposed upon it by a particular NT theology. "Israel" has always been all Israel, believing or not. It is well known that Israel has always been at different stages of development and at different proportions of faith.

That's true Randy, but all Israel is not and never shall be Israel of God! Only those within Israel (remnant) are and shall always be the Israel of God. The Israel of God is and always has been people of faith from all nations. That's not imposing NT theology upon Israel. For in Abraham shall thy seed (Christ) be called, and the promise is that Abraham would be the father of 'many' nations (Gentiles).

For example, how much faith was in Israel from the time they approached the Red Sea? I would suppose that most of them lacked faith to escape the Egyptians? However, many survived and crossed over. Later, many in Israel were pruned because of the rebellious kind of unbelief, but many others who lacked faith persevered and were less rebellious.

The majority never had faith Randy, which is why they continually provoked the LORD to anger. There has always been only a remnant from Israel who were of faith. For this reason most of them died in the wilderness in unbelief. Only those 20 years old and under got to enter into the land that God swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as long as they remained faithful to God. It took only one generation coming after them for the nation to fall away from the true God and to serve the gods of the nations around them.

Numbers 32:11 (KJV) Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me:
Numbers 32:12 (KJV) Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.

Hebrews 3:17-19 (KJV) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Joshua 24:31 (KJV) And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

Judges 2:9-12 (KJV) And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnath-heres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

So lacking faith did not delegitimize portions of Israel--they remained part of Israel. And even if the whole nation fell into rebellious faith and were cut off from the land, being put into exile, the children of those same rebels were restored to the promised land.

It is not the lack of faith keeps them from being Israel. Rather the lack of faith keeps them from belonging to "Israel of God", who are the faithful from all nations. The generation of those who came out of the wilderness after leaving Egypt lost the land of promise they had inherited through Jacob, because they, like their fathers before them provoked the anger of the LORD by serving other gods. Their spiritual adultery and apostasy is why Israel lost the land they had fully inherited just as God promised them.

Ideally they all have faith all the time. That simply isn't the reality. But never were they considered Israel one moment and non-Israel another. There were always Israel.

You need to refrain from speaking as though anyone has argued that Israel ever ceases to be Israel. No one believes that. Even you admit that within Israel of Old/Current there were/are those of faith and those in unbelief. Whether you agree or not, that makes Israel a nation divided into two groups. Just as is every single nation of the world. That's why Paul writes they are not all Israel that are of Israel. Being national Israel will lead the unbelieving Jews to damnation. Only those of Israel belonging to the Israel of God through faith are blessed by God with eternal salvation. Those who shall be saved are not an ethnic people but are the people of faith from every nation of the earth.

Paul just makes the point that God's sense of Israel's development and fulfillment required faith, even if it has taken years to get there. They don't stop being Israel just because they aren't there yet.

Those who are of Israel but never belong to the Israel of God shall never be there.

 

[rwb]

I've now explained this several times. I will explain it again. This is not just a biblical problem, but more, a language problem. Common sense use of the word "Israel" in the Bible suggests it is the literal nation, consisting of a large group traditionally based in the land of Canaan, and placed in covenant with God by the Law of Moses. That is what the word "Israel" means.

When one replaces this meaning of "Israel" with another allegorized meaning of the word 'Israel," it takes on a foreign sense that is not natural to the context. I could quote all of the verses in the world from the Bible. But if you read "International Church" into the word "Israel," you will not appreciate my argument.

Why do you refuse to deal with the "Israel of God" who are neither Jew nor Gentile but all people of faith??? Allegorized??? I don't believe Paul was using allegoric language, but plain speaking plainly explaining that man will only find peace and mercy from God when they are of "the Israel of God", not according to ethnicity, but according to grace through faith.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[marks]

Who ever says Israel will stop being Israel?

I think there are a lot of people who say that the original ethnic nation is no longer Israel due to unbelief, and the believers are Israel, including gentiles.

Who belong to "the Israel of God" ? Paul tells us it is not the circumcision (Jews), nor is it the uncircumcision (Gentiles), but a new creature, called "the Israel of God". Because salvation is not according to ethnicity, but is by grace through faith to whosoever shall believe. Peace and mercy of God are upon them!

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Much love to you as well Marks.

The Israel of God are the believing Jews.

And yes, absolutely, salvation is not based on ethnicity.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Just the same, God promised that all the Israelites who remaim when Jesus comes will be saved by Him, both physically from the beast and the world's armies, and spiritually as He pours out His spirit on them.

Isaiah 59:20-21
(20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

This even given to Jacob, who only signifies the original ethnic Israel. And of course there are many many prophecies of the saving and restoration of that nation, which I believe will be fulfilled.

I think @Randy Kluth has a point. Like Walter Martin was fond of saying, "Words have meanings". Israel is a certain thing, in this case, a particular people group. And the Bible does in fact demonstrate two uses for it, but both concern the same people. There are the descendants of Jacob, Israel, , and there are the believing descendants of Jacob, the Israel of God.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

its not xitian --its Xtian!

I agree with you however in all my years online, the times I have seen Xtian were used as derogatory. I have never seen a Christian used the term/abbrev.

 

[ewq1938]

Christ was not a Christian.

Christ was the first Christian like Jacob was the first of Israel.

Christ was the Jewish Messiah.

Yes and was rejected by most Jews so the gospel went to the gentiles and he became their Messiah.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Christ was the first Christian like Jacob was the first of Israel.

Not true. Christian was first coined by Pagans as a slur to describe people of the book, Jews, who converted to the teachings of the prophesied Messiah in the Tanakh.
Christian="Christ like " Immanuel wasn't Christ like.

Yes and was rejected by most Jews so the gospel went to the gentiles and he became their Messiah.

Jews were some of the first converts. Think for instance on Immanuel's Disciples,Apostles. All were Jews.

Messiah is all of ours. There is no Jew,Greek, Gentiles or Jew. We are one in Him.

 

[ewq1938]

Not true. Christian was first coined by Pagans as a slur to describe people of the book, Jews, who converted to the teachings of the prophesied Messiah in the Tanakh.
Christian="Christ like " Immanuel wasn't Christ like.

A Christian follows Christ, not literally walking but spiritually walking IN HIS TEACHINGS, what he believed in, the truths and depths he revealed.

Did Jesus practice what he preached ie: did he follow his own teachings? Of course.

Was Jesus Christ a Christian? Yes, the first one, the originator of it.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

A Christian follows Christ, not literally walking but spiritually walking IN HIS TEACHINGS, what he believed in, the truths and depths he revealed.

Did Jesus practice what he preached ie: did he follow his own teachings? Of course.

Was Jesus Christ a Christian? Yes, the first one, the originator of it.

Immanuel was God. Immanuel was the Christ. To be the first Christian, Christ like,by the etymological history of the word Christian,makes little sense.

 

[covenantee]

Immanuel was God. Immanuel was the Christ. To be the first Christian, Christ like,by the etymological history of the word Christian,makes little sense.

The Greek Χριστιανός (Christianos) means "follower of Christ".

Christ followed His own teachings.

He was thus the first Christian.

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter didn't consider the word a slur.

 

[ewq1938]

Immanuel was God. Immanuel was the Christ. To be the first Christian, Christ like,by the etymological history of the word Christian,makes little sense.

It makes perfect sense. Is not a karate instructor also someone who knows karate? You make it sound like the teacher cannot also practice what he teaches. It is no different with religion.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

It makes perfect sense. Is not a karate instructor also someone who knows karate? You make it sound like the teacher cannot also practice what he teaches. It is no different with religion.

I don't see that is a proper metaphor.

To be a Christian as applies in etymology, and in practice, means Immanuel believes in himself.

Before the label Christian was applied toward believers the faithful in Christ were called people of the book or, followers of The Way.

Was Immanuel labeled a follower of the way? Or, a follower of the book? When he was the author of the book.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't see that is a proper metaphor.

To be a Christian as applies in etymology, and in practice, means Immanuel believes in himself.

Before the label Christian was applied toward believers the faithful in Christ were called people of the book or, followers of The Way.

Was Immanuel labeled a follower of the way? Or, a follower of the book? When he was the author of the book.

He led the way. He did not sit back to the side and instruct people to walk the way without him leading.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm antitalmudic. So are you.

I'm not antisemitic. Neither are you.

If antiChristian is a generalized description of those who reject Christ, then Christians are antiantiChristian. :)

"antiantiChristian".

1. John taught us that ALL humans who do not believe in the Son of God are anti-Christ(ian).

2. Paul taught that not ALL naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Israel, because those of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who do not believe in the seed of Abraham (Christ) are broken off from God's covenant-promises that He made with Abraham and his seed. They are broken off from the Israel of God.

3. Paul taught us that Gentiles who do believe are grafted into Israel - into God's covenant-promises with Abraham and his seed - and are among the remnant of the naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe.

4. Paul taught us that together these Jews and Gentiles in Christ are the living stones that are God's Tabernacle, indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

5. Paul taught that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

6. Therefore simple arithmetic and logic tells us that the church = Israel = the church.

The person who coined the phrase "Replacement Theology" in respect of what Jesus and His apostles taught is very, very confused, does not understand basic arithmetic, and exalts one anti-Christ(ian) nation above all other anti-Christ(ian) people merely because the nation that he exalts above all other unbelievers, are naturally-born descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those who follow this heresy are so confused that they do not even realize that they are practicing replacement theology by replacing Christ - the seed who inherits all the promises of God contained in God's covenant with Abraham and his seed - with people who reject Him.

They also fail to realize that the Deliverer who came out of Zion is Jesus, and the day in which He made a covenant (the new covenant) with Israel was the day He took away their (and our sins). They do not understand that when He returns, He returns in judgment of unbelievers, He is not going to return as the Deliverer who takes away sin a second time.

They do not understand that ever since the Deliverer came out of Zion and made a new covenant with Israel in the day He took away their (and our sins),

(a) The fullness of the Gentiles are being grafted into Israel through their faith in Christ, to share with the naturally-born descendants of Israel in the root and fatness of the Olive tree; and

(b) IF (Romans 11:23) an unbelieving Jewish person repents of his or her unbelief, the person will be grafted back into the Israel they are naturally born descendants of ("their own Olive tree") - and this is because:

i. For the sake of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are still loved.
ii. God had mercy on Gentiles who believe through their unbelief.
iii. God is able to graft them in again.

Those who follow this heresy of replacing Israel in Christ with those who are not in Christ, are so confused that they think the Deliverer is still going to come out of Zion in order to take away ungodliness from Jacob by taking away their sins, and making a new covenant with Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah) in His blood.​

 

[rwb]

I think there are a lot of people who say that the original ethnic nation is no longer Israel due to unbelief, and the believers are Israel, including gentiles.

That's not what is said Mark. What many have come to understand is that ethnic Israel, being Israel still, never stopped being Israel, however they are the part of Israel the nation, that has always been in unbelief. Those in unbelief do not belong to those in the nation who are of faith in Christ. Only those of faith are THE Israel of God. Those are not my words, but the words spoken by Paul. Israel in unbelief must turn in faith to Christ, if they are to be grafted into the same tree of faith as THE Israel of God.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God are the believing Jews.

And yes, absolutely, salvation is not based on ethnicity.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Just the same, God promised that all the Israelites who remaim when Jesus comes will be saved by Him, both physically from the beast and the world's armies, and spiritually as He pours out His spirit on them.

I'm glad to see that you do understand why it is a bit difficult to know how to define Israel since in truth Israel is both a remnant in faith, and the part of them in blindness and unbelief.

Paul tells us God's promise is that ALL Israel shall be saved when the full number of Gentiles are grafted into the good tree of faith with Israel of faith. Not grafted with Israel in unbelief.

Paul shows how Israel is a remnant according to the election of grace. While natural Israel does not belong to the remnant, being blinded by unbelief. But natural Israel hasn't stumbled to utterly fall, they can be grafted back into Israel of faith, just as Gentiles of faith have also been. Because God said through their fall the Gospel was sent to the Gentiles that maybe Israel in unbelief, would desire to be saved as the Gentiles of faith also may be. It was Paul desire to save SOME of them in unbelief by telling them the Gospel of salvation is being offered to Gentiles. Paul says it was because of their unbelief that part of the branches (in unbelief) were broken off, that Gentiles too might be grafted in with Israel of faith. But just as God did not spare the natural branches, neither would He spare Gentiles IF they did not keep the faith, they too would be broken off, just as Israel in part in unbelief were not spared by God.

Paul concludes the matter by saying blindness in part happened to Israel that the Gospel would be sent also to them. And it is through Gentiles of faith becoming part of Israel of faith that ALL Israel shall be saved. Not that ALL Israelites in unbelief alive when Christ comes shall be saved, but that Israel, at least THE Israel of God is not an ethnic people but ALL people of faith. Paul is NOT speaking of that part of Israel in blindness and unbelief, he is speaking of whosoever has been born again as THE Israel of God who shall ALL be saved by the Deliverer who comes out of Sion and turns away ungodliness from the seed (Christ) of Jacob, because God's Covenant is with them and their sins shall be taken away.

Romans 11:5 (KJV) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7 (KJV) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 11:11-14 (KJV) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:19-22 (KJV) Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 11:23 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Romans 11:23-27 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

God's Covenant of Redemption through the Gospel of His Son has always been a promise God made to ALL people of faith. It is they who are the true Israel of God. Because the people of God are neither Jew nor Gentile but one people of God, called by the name of Christ, Christians. When Christ returns only they who are of faith shall be saved. Israel still in unbelief when Christ comes again, like all the people of all the nations of the world that remain in unbelief when He comes shall be utterly destroyed.

Isaiah 59:20-21
(20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

This even given to Jacob, who only signifies the original ethnic Israel. And of course there are many many prophecies of the saving and restoration of that nation, which I believe will be fulfilled.

Read carefully what is written in Isaiah. The Redeemer comes from Zion and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob. Because the Covenant is with them. Isaiah is speaking of Israel in faith, not the part in blindness and unbelief. That's why he writes "in Jacob" instead of saying transgression shall be removed from Israel. Jacob is the personal name given those who have come from the Seed (Christ) of faith. They are all people of faith who come from the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that Seed is Christ. That's why it is written, "Jacob have I loved", not Israel have I loved, because not all who are of Israel are of the Seed of Abraham, the Seed (Christ) of faith. God's Covenant is with them, all who are of faith that includes Jews and Gentiles of faith in Christ together, and are THE Israel of God.

Romans 9:6-13 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

I think @Randy Kluth has a point. Like Walter Martin was fond of saying, "Words have meanings". Israel is a certain thing, in this case, a particular people group. And the Bible does in fact demonstrate two uses for it, but both concern the same people. There are the descendants of Jacob, Israel, , and there are the believing descendants of Jacob, the Israel of God.

Much love!

Words indeed do have meaning. And I agree the Bible does use the word Israel to demonstrate two types of people both called by the same name. But I cannot agree that both concern the same people! Because the Israel of God has never been one people, the Jewish nation called Israel, the Israel of God has always been ALL people of faith regardless of what nation they have come to faith in Christ from.

Much love to you also Marks!

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

He led the way. He did not sit back to the side and instruct people to walk the way without him leading.

Yes,I know this.