Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

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TinMan

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I don't need evidence because I already argued that it was a logical impossibility. If we postulate that biologically determined orientation is an aspect of the natural order, then there are only two means by which such a thing is possible: 1) God created it that way, which is unlikely or 2) natural selection, which is impossible since there is only one orientation that results in the propagation of genetic material: male-female. Even if a gene is inherited by the mother, it still requires a father to make a baby. And only one orientation results in a baby. Orientation is not listed among the inherited traits through the mother.
No you declared it to be impossible and did so by purposefully ignoring basic tenants of genetics and doing so showed the last thing you were being was logical.

Male pattern baldness is inherited though the maternal line.
Height is inherited through the paternal line
Circadian rhythms (the natural cycles of sleeping and waking) passed on through the maternal line.
Crooked teeth passed through the paternal line
and dozens of other genetic traits pass only though one parent. And orientation is one of those like it or not.



It isn't inherited at all.

The generalization is inaccurate, incomplete or misleading for the reasons I stated. Go back and read my argument.
re-reading faulty thinking won't change facts.
Even in the case of Black people. No one likes to be known according to the flesh -- even black people. If Joe is acknowledged to be the best Jazz musician in Chicago, to classify him as "the best black musician is insulting to Joe, as if he couldn't compete in a white world.
wow, you rally don't have a clue about minorities.
Sexual attraction should not be classified based on gender as it overlooks the most crucial aspect of sexual attraction: the human connection between individuals. If I had chosen my wife solely based on her race, any woman of the same race would have sufficed.
you chose your wife solely because she was a woman. Because of your orientation
However, that was not the case. I chose Zoe because of her kind, considerate, Christian, good-hearted, giving, generous, and understanding nature. I picked HER, a person, through a personal choice. Social classifications are mere generalizations that do not aid in seeking wisdom and living a good life. Classifications such as LGBT do nothing but divide and cause wrangling and disputes.
You and people like you are the ones causing that divide and the pushing discrimination.
You have overlooked the most crucial factor in attraction: personality and character. As I mentioned earlier, if we limit our selection to looks and chemistry, then the pool of candidates becomes vast, potentially numbering in the hundreds or even thousands. In my search for a partner, I made the choice to focus on finding someone with a unique personality and character, which narrowed the field down to a single choice. While there were numerous white, beautiful, kind, empathetic, and personally compatible women in my college, (according to your list,) only a few had the exceptional personality and character that my partner Zoe possesses. She is truly one of a kind, and I feel very lucky to have found her.
And you still limited your choices to women because of your orientation.
When choosing a life partner, it is important to select an individual rather than a group, class, or family. I consider the attributes of the person and assess their significance and importance which helps me narrow down the choices. For me, an individual's character holds more weight than their physical attributes. I am searching for a specific person who possesses all the qualities that I value.
And you only considered women because of your orientation.
Let's keep this above the waistline. :)
Arousal happens above the waistline in your mind.
My point exactly. But we are discussing the concept of "orientation", which has no meaning apart from sexuality.
of course it does and it is just foolish to pretend it doesn't.
What would it mean for me to say, for example, that I prefer beer with pizza rather than Coke if I never eat pizza? We understand the meaning of words within the context where they appear.

You maintain that homosexuality isn't immoral in the same way that having blue eyes isn't immoral. You argue that orientation is an innate attribute of human existence and therefore God can't hold man responsible for homosexual activity.
It is innate.
If we suppose, as you suggested, that orientation is inherited through the mother. We can only surmise that an orientation other than male-female is a chronic hereditary disorder caused by a genetic defect. In that case, in order to satisfy morality, one must remain celibate.
One more time. I will type slowly so you can better understand. The genes that determine homosexuality work in the mother to make her more fertile. Again basic genetics.

Bob has sickle cell anemia but neither of his parents have this condition. What you are saying is that this is impossible because of your faulty grasp of genetics. The gene that causes sickle cell anemia works in Bob'[s parents as a means of protection from malaria.
For obvious reasons. Homosexual attraction is an impure desire, which is contrary to the will of God. The committed worshipper of God will set aside his own wants and desires and ask for what he desires instead.
Not obvious at all
Same reason. Many of us are faced with impure desires, such as sleeping with another man's wife, or sleeping with another wife's husband. All of the attributes of attraction are in play, including emotional connections, proximity, availability, physical attraction, etc. Just as adultery is wrong, so are other sexual practices that take place outside of God's will for marriage. Given that a man or a woman has impure thoughts and desires at times, the right choice is to deny oneself fulfillment of these desires.
That is your choice. don't inflict it onto others.
 

Wrangler

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He was 8 years old? What could he have actually done?

My 9-yo step-grandson came over yesterday for halloween. He took a laser pointer we got to play with the cat and pointed it directly into the dog's eye at point blank range - multiple times.

Point is Original Sin does not take effect after a certain number of years; it only manifests after a certain number of years.

I do not for one second believe that he "got what was coming to him" as your posts have said without saying. At least that is how I am reading them. Is this what you're saying?
We all deserve death. There is a lack of humility to presume otherwise.

Regarding being murdered by another human being, there is no defense, no excuse, no justification. What our friend @TinMan cannot reconcile is that just because sin was done to the 8 yo, does not make him NOT a sinner.

@TinMan is not of the Spirit. He cannot accept that his pet sin is a sin according to the Bible. Not being right with God, he is not right with the universe and does not have peace and rest. I pray for him often.
 
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BarneyFife

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Why?
Any reason beyond personal prejudice?

Why? You've already said you won't honestly look at anything.

You have got to be kidding me.

I watched over 2 hours of Colby Martin's Thinking-Out-Loud Theology 101. It was painful. And I still like the guy.

It's not like I'm asking you for copy of post-election analysis from Faux News.

How about something from a respected liberal school of research? Or a weblink to Cleveland or Mayo, or even Cedar-Sinai or something?

The consensus of the scientific community is that the factors determining "sexual orientation" are not fully understood, but may include genetic, hormonal, and/or environmental influences.

Your position doesn't sound like that at all.

.
 
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Naomanos

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My 9-yo step-grandson came over yesterday for halloween. He took a laser pointer we got to play with the cat and pointed it directly into the dog's eye at point blank range - multiple times.

Was the 9 year old previously told not to point a laser pointer in anyone's eyes, human or non-human before? If, not, how would he know not to do that? As an adult it seems like common sense, but to a 9 year old? I know how I was at 9. That wouldn't have registered as common sense in my mind.

If he wasn't told, how would he know it's wrong? How can this be considered sin?

We all deserve death. There is a lack of humility to presume otherwise.

I agree! We all do! Did the eight year old deserve death?

What our friend @TinMan cannot reconcile is that just because sin was done to the 8 yo, does not make him NOT a sinner.

He was 8 years old. Was he a sinner, yes, but that doesn't mean that at that moment he deserved death for what he was killed for. I think this is what @TinMan is trying to get across.

Again, I appreciate that you are saying that what his parents did was wrong, I really do.

@TinMan is not of the Spirit. He cannot accept that his pet sin is a sin according to the Bible. Not being right with God, he is not right with the universe and does not have peace and rest. I pray for him often.

@TinMan I think, is very passionate about making sure that there is no discrimination against minorities and I do commend him for that.

As I have said in the past, I support homosexuals choosing what life they want to live. Do I agree with their choice, no, but I support their right to make that choice. I have a 17 year old daughter and a 19 about to be 20 year old son who identify as lesbian and bisexual. The 19 year old lives in his own and the 17 year old lives with her mom. They know my feelings as they are expressed above. They know I still love them and will always be here for them. I still go to Upstate, NY and visit them. I will never push them away. They are my children and always will be.
 

Wrangler

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@TinMan I think, is very passionate about making sure that there is no discrimination against minorities
And here is the run. Being a "minority" does not mean one can sin with impunity. Homosexuals are only minority in that species of sin. Action that is immoral is not the category of determining minority status. Such changing of definitions is a fundamental point of dispute.
 

Naomanos

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And here is the run. Being a "minority" does not mean one can sin with impunity. Homosexuals are only minority in that species of sin. Action that is immoral is not the category of determining minority status. Such changing of definitions is a fundamental point of dispute.

I agree, to a point, but if they continue to sin in that way, it there choice. That is where I leave it. I will not keep on them.

They are still a minority. Definitions change over time whether we like the change or not, they can still change. I consider them a minority because there are far more straight people than homosexual people.

Of course this is my opinion and does not need to be shared by you or anyone else.
 

TinMan

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My 9-yo step-grandson came over yesterday for halloween. He took a laser pointer we got to play with the cat and pointed it directly into the dog's eye at point blank range - multiple times.
What did you do to stop him?

Was he beaten for this?

Point is Original Sin does not take effect after a certain number of years; it only manifests after a certain number of years.


We all deserve death. There is a lack of humility to presume otherwise.
So you would have been justified in killing your grandson.
Regarding being murdered by another human being, there is no defense, no excuse, no justification. What our friend @TinMan cannot reconcile is that just because sin was done to the 8 yo, does not make him NOT a sinner.
You just said we all deserve death.
@TinMan is not of the Spirit. He cannot accept that his pet sin is a sin according to the Bible. Not being right with God, he is not right with the universe and does not have peace and rest. I pray for him often.
And what did 8 year old Gabriel do that provoked his parents into torture and murder?
 

TinMan

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You are in denial.

I've explained this numerous times. You just remain willfully ignorant and emotionally charged on the subject. Read post #1490 and let me know what it is you still do not specifically understand?
I don't understand what he was doing that was EVIL. I don't understand what he did to provoke his parents to torture and murder him. I didn't understand why you don't just say what he did rather than keep claiming that you did.
 

Wrangler

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I consider them a minority because there are far more straight people than homosexual people.
They are not a minority based on the historical basis for that term applying to an objective accident of birth, such as race or sex.

The term minority never applied to immoral actions people took. If this is the new standard, criminals are to be protected since they are an even smaller minority than the growing alphabet people.
 

TinMan

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You have got to be kidding me.
No I am serious why would you reject or even suggest that research is valid based on the journal it appeared in.
Scientific journals specialize in particular topics but that doesn't call into question the integrity of the research. Saying anything appearing in journal X is "suspect" is just making a blind accusation and not a legitimate reason. The journal is a vanity press and will publish anything for cash is a valid reason to cast doubt on the validity of anything it prints. The journal skips peer review, the journal has a history of printing junk science. These are reasons to reject research as valid.
 
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Wrangler

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I don't understand what he was doing that was EVIL. I don't understand what he did to provoke his parents to torture and murder him. I didn't understand why you don't just say what he did rather than keep claiming that you did.
You understand. If you did not, you would not use him as a case study in an attempt to bolster your cause.
 

TinMan

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They are not a minority based on the historical basis for that term applying to an objective accident of birth, such as race or sex.

The term minority never applied to immoral actions people took. If this is the new standard, criminals are to be protected since they are an even smaller minority than the growing alphabet people.
Not being a Christian is considered to be immoral. Yet religious minorities exist.

LGBT people are a minority and your choice to hate them doesn't change that.
 

Naomanos

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They are not a minority based on the historical basis for that term applying to an objective accident of birth, such as race or sex.

The term minority never applied to immoral actions people took. If this is the new standard, criminals are to be protected since they are an even smaller minority than the growing alphabet people.

As I said, it is my opinion and you or anyone else do not have to share it.
 

CadyandZoe

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No you declared it to be impossible and did so by purposefully ignoring basic tenants of genetics and doing so showed the last thing you were being was logical.
I respectfully disagree. I think a fair reading of my arguments will prove them to be sound.
Male pattern baldness is inherited though the maternal line.
Height is inherited through the paternal line
Circadian rhythms (the natural cycles of sleeping and waking) passed on through the maternal line.
Crooked teeth passed through the paternal line
and dozens of other genetic traits pass only though one parent. And orientation is one of those like it or not.
Once again, you missed the point entirely. Whether a trait is inherited through one parent or both parents, nothing at all is inherited apart from the activity of reproduction. Male-male bonding doesn't produce a child. Female-female bonding doesn't produce a child. Without reproduction, there is no evolutionary pressure that will increase the likelihood of a supposed mitochondrial DNA symbiosis. If the supposed symbiosis forms accidentally through mutation, the gene will not survive into the subsequent generations. The mother will not have a gene for her child to inherit.

The only way your theory works is if women who were supposedly oriented toward other women, mated with men contrary to their nature. And if this is true, the orientation is meaningless.
wow, you rally don't have a clue about minorities.
Yes, I do. Human nature, behavior, and motives are not hard to discern for those willing to spend the time to listen and observe.
you chose your wife solely because she was a woman. Because of your orientation
You can believe me or don't.

And you still limited your choices to women because of your orientation.
Well, if there is such a thing as "orientation," mine is correct. Healthy orientation is male-female adult orientation. All others are mental disorders.
of course it does and it is just foolish to pretend it doesn't.
Who is pretending? I gave you a sound argument as to why the concept, as understood in our culture, is empty and meaningless outside the concept of sexuality. Try making your own argument if you can.
One more time. I will type slowly so you can better understand. The genes that determine homosexuality work in the mother to make her more fertile.
The likelihood of fertility has nothing to do with it. Reproduction requires both a father and a mother. A male-male orientation doesn't involve a woman. A female-female orientation involves two women, neither of which can contribute sperm. Therefore, there is no biological advantage to a supposed mother-inherited trait associated with reproduction.
Again basic genetics.

Bob has sickle cell anemia but neither of his parents have this condition. What you are saying is that this is impossible because of your faulty grasp of genetics. The gene that causes sickle cell anemia works in Bob'[s parents as a means of protection from malaria.
Bob doesn't exist unless he has two parents, male and female. Bob isn't gay because his mother has a gay gene. Bob is gay because he suffered damage to his psyche during childhood.
Not obvious at all.
A gay man wears on his body the evidence against his desires. If he has a sexual attraction to another man, his desire is contrary to the created order. Men have parts that women share to have children. You can't get any more obvious than that.
That is your choice. don't inflict it onto others.
Before we make a choice, we need to face reality. I don't need to inflict reality onto a person. God did that already. All I can do is help someone accept what they already know to be true.
 
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BarneyFife

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No I am serious why would you reject or even suggest that research is valid based on the journal it appeared in.
Scientific journals specialize in particular topics but that doesn't call into question the integrity of the research. Saying anything appearing in journal X is "suspect" is just making a blind accusation and not a legitimate reason. The journal is a vanity press and will publish anything for cash is a valid reason to cast doubt on the validity of anything it prints. The journal skips peer review, the journal has a history of printing junk science. These are reasons to reject research as valid.

Your typical incredulous questioning prompted my use of the word "suspect."

I'm sure you'd like nothing better than to portray that I don't know the difference between the words "suspect" and "invalid." It looks like you've already succeeded to some degree.

But you're not fooling me. I know by now that there is no word you won't stoop to weaponize.

That everyone must give evidence for their claims is key to your 3-point campaign platform.

Everyone but you, that is.

So, let the record show that you're now desperately trying to avoid giving evidence that what is referred to by LGBT ideology as "sexual orientation" is irrevocably fixed at birth.

Unless, since we now seem to be playing games, you'd like to ante up or fold at this time.

.
 
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