OSAS being False Doctrine!

[CadyandZoe]

That is one of his arguments.

But it is about Gods chosing of Isreal

He says all those things, about how God did not chose them because of their righteousness. (An argument they made)

that the gentiles would come and share

and that in the end, All Israel would be saved.

if we take it out of context. we get things like calvinist views.. which paul did nto have in mind

The argument Paul makes applies to everyone, not just Israel. He uses two examples from the OT: Isaac and Ishmael; and Jacob and Esau. Neither of these examples is directly applicable to Israel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul uses the potter-clay analogy to make a different point.

You can;t take a passage out of the OT and make it say something else. that would be wrong. Paul quoted the OT passage because the people would understand what he meant..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The argument Paul makes applies to everyone, not just Israel. He uses two examples from the OT: Isaac and Ishmael; and Jacob and Esau. Neither of these examples is directly applicable to Israel.

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

This is how he starts chapter 9

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This is how he ends it in chapter 11

its all about Israel. and must be takern in that context.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can;t take a passage out of the OT and make it say something else. that would be wrong. Paul quoted the OT passage because the people would understand what he meant..

I don't think Paul quoted or used an OT passage to make his point. His point is perfectly understandable alone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

This is how he starts chapter 9

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This is how he ends it in chapter 11

its all about Israel. and must be takern in that context.

I am taking it in that context, but Paul's point stands alone. One does not need to have access to the OT to understand the point he is making. It's a simple analogy involving a potter, which is not a unique experience to the Hebrews. All cultures and peoples make pots out of pottery. And Paul gives the reader no expectation or hint that his point rests on an OT passage. I'm simply following his argument and the rhetorical question he raises.

The context is Israel, I agree. But the topic of the paragraph is Paul's argument for why God's election is not unjust. He appeals to the logic of being a creator.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't think Paul quoted or used an OT passage to make his point. His point is perfectly understandable alone.

Actually most of his quotes were from the ot.

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

Genesis 25:23

And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Its not about two kids, but about 2 nations. Isreal and Edom (Jacob and Esau)

13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” -

Malachi 1:2

“I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord. “Yet Jacob I have loved; 2. But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”​

again, 2 nations, not 2 kids

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”


Exodus 33: 15
Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”
17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, (mercy) and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

Exodus 9:16
But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

God used the power to free the nation of Israel.

20 Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Isaiah 29:16
Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

A prophecy concerning the nation of Israel

Jeremiah 18: 5-10
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Again concerning Israel. God as potter has the right to destroy it, he also has the right if they repent to rebuild it.

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand.

Potter and clay as it relates to Israel

there are more. but you get the point. Potter and clay was an OT term of God molding Israel or destroying them

25 “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Hoea 1: “Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are [e]not My people,’
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Chilrdren of Isreal will be restored.


27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”

Isaiah 10:20-23

And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who [e]defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

Again, the return of Israel

29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Isaiah 1:9

Your country is desolate,
Your cities are burned with fire;
Strangers devour your land in your presence;
And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 So the daughter of Zion is left as a [e]booth in a vineyard,
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers,
As a besieged city.
9 Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.

Prophecy of the destruction of Israel. yet God will leave a remnant.

Once again, if you do the heavy work and go back. it is all about Israel

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am taking it in that context, but Paul's point stands alone. One does not need to have access to the OT to understand the point he is making. It's a simple analogy involving a potter, which is not a unique experience to the Hebrews. All cultures and peoples make pots out of pottery. And Paul gives the reader no expectation or hint that his point rests on an OT passage. I'm simply following his argument and the rhetorical question he raises.

The context is Israel, I agree. But the topic of the paragraph is Paul's argument for why God's election is not unjust. He appeals to the logic of being a creator.

The topic is God choosing Israel.

Did God make a mistake

the jew thought they were saved by Blood

the gentile looked, and saw the great mistake Israel was..

otherwise we have the fatalistic view of Calvin, which is error

 

[CadyandZoe]

again, 2 nations, not 2 kids

I've done the "heavy lifting" believe me. :)

I should point out that Paul's argument involves both the kids and the people groups that came from them. Nevertheless, his argument concerning the possible injustice of God is focused on the boys.

Romans 9:10-13

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?
This rhetorical question is predicated on Paul's assertion that God orchestrated history such that the older would serve the younger and that God would love (bless, support, protect and favor) Jacob and hate (work against) Esau.

Many people think that human actions and events outside of our control determine the course of human history. They believe that history follows the laws of cause and effect, driven by the motivations of millions of individuals, even when these motivations conflict with each other. However, Paul's viewpoint differs. He believes that God is the one who orchestrates history and that it unfolds according to God's plan. Paul emphasizes God's purpose for the future, which implies that history unfolds as God intends it. For Paul, God is the only significant motivation and purpose behind history.

In the Bible, there is a story about two twins, born with the older one destined to serve the younger one. However, many people question the fairness of this decision, as it seems that God should have waited until the boys were grown men before deciding who should be the leader. Some argue that a merit-based system would be more just, where each man is evaluated based on their deeds and demonstrated ability to lead. Paul even raises the question of whether God's treatment of Jacob and Esau was unjust.

Paul argues that God should be defended on the basis that He is the Creator. As the Creator, God has the right to determine the destiny of a person even before they are born, since every human being is a creation and a product of God's creative purpose. Each individual has a purpose to serve, and it is within God's authority to assign that purpose.

The way God treated the two nations that descended from the twins was based on His purpose for the two boys. In ancient times, people looked beyond their own lifetimes and cared about their offspring. The prosperity of their children was considered a part of their inheritance that was dependent on God's attitude and blessings. The fact that God blessed Jacob also meant that his children received blessings as well. Therefore, when God blessed Jacob, He also blessed his kids and his nation.

Paul frequently and emphatically asserts that salvation is by Grace. This is because God's grace towards Jacob was not based on what he did or intended to do. God had already decided to bless Jacob and his nation even before Jacob was born.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The topic is God choosing Israel.

Did God make a mistake

the jew thought they were saved by Blood

the gentile looked, and saw the great mistake Israel was..

otherwise we have the fatalistic view of Calvin, which is error

Bear in mind the teaching of fatalism, which suggests that a man is not responsible for his actions because they are predetermined. According to the dictionary, Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine that believes all events are predetermined, so individuals are powerless to alter their destiny. The same can be said of a movie, where all events are predetermined and the audience is powerless to change the ending.

A movie story is built around characters who perform actions based on their specific motives. Even though their actions are predetermined by the script, they still make sense within the context of the characters' situations, circumstances, and motives. The outcome of the story can be explained by the events leading up to the climax and the resolution. Therefore, although a movie's events and actions are predetermined, the characters' actions are explicable in terms of their free choices within that context.

 

[mailmandan]

Acts 8:13
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

So, here's an example of a born again believer who committed sin and the Apostle Peter... under the anointing of the Holy Ghost tells the man

"thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

This is yet another example that OSAS is false doctrine

It's actually another example of your eisegesis and anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. Simon the sorcerer is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. (verses 20-24) You called that saved? Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ. False conversion.

 

[mailmandan]

Always! Thanks!

I posted this on another board I'm a part of that has lots of OSAS adherents and it was... crickets!

When I posted a follow-up message asking why none in the OSAS community had any refutation for this they started sayin stuff about me (which I don't care if they do) as diversions but still kept side stepping the points being made.

So, it seems like Gal 6:7,8 is the kryptonite of OSAS doctrine since they can't say we do reap what we sow which indicates OSAS isn't true... or say we don't reap what we so which would be mocking God according to verse 7.

Not hardly and your arrogance is really showing. In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The question is whether God gives every human being these tools or does he give them exclusively to those whom he is saving?

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11)

God's Word teaches that it's will for ALL to be saved... limited atonement is in direct opposition to what God says in His Word so.... this teaching came from the devil!

Limited Atonement is FALSE

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Father sovereignly decided to make man in His own Image which is why all men have free will. He said in His Word than we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), and we are to be followers of God as dear children (Ephesians 5:1)

God's Word says man is without excuse (Romans 1:20), the grace that brings salvation has come upon all men (Titus 2:11-13)

God's Word says it's not God's will that any perish and He wants all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He has commanded men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)

Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men until Himself (John 12:32), and Jesus has tasted of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9)

In light of all these scriptures, we can say for sure that limited atonement taught by John Calvin is false doctrine and is in opposition to what God says.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11)

Granting that Peter declares the impartiality of God, is Peter also saying that God intends to save each and every human being? Clearly, God himself declares that he intends to save some and not others. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy; and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Those whom he foreknew, he glorifies.

God's Word teaches that it's will for ALL to be saved...

Paul indicates that it is God's "desire" that all be saved. Paul doesn't indicate that it is God's "will" that all be saved. God is saving those whom he chose, the elect, as Paul says here.

Romans 8:32-34

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.​

The elect, those whom God chose, are being justified and saved.

limited atonement is in direct opposition to what God says in His Word

Don't confuse atonement with salvation. These two concepts, while related, are distinct. The apostles teach that the atonement applies to the entire world.

Consider the following verse from John's gospel.

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."​

​

The first half of the sentence above refers to the atonement, while the second half refers to salvation. It's important to note that the atonement is not limited to just the elect, but rather through the cross, Jesus interceded for the entire world. Paul the apostle asserts this idea in his second epistle to the Corinthians, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19) It's worth emphasizing that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and that the reconciliation was universal and worldwide.

Jesus' statement referred to the people who will be saved by God. These individuals will not face destruction because they believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God. It is important to note that Jesus spoke these words to Nicodemus after he mentioned the requirement of being born again or from above in order to enter God's kingdom. Only those who are born again through the spirit will receive eternal life. As Paul stated in Romans 8:9, "If indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit . . . if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."


Consequently, if God is saving an individual, and God has poured his spirit into the heart of that individual, he will also give life to his or her mortal body. We give glory to God because he is saving us; we are not saving ourselves. He chooses whom to save, he pours out his spirit on those whom he is saving and he gives life to their mortal bodies that they should never perish.

God's will does not come back to him void.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not hardly and your arrogance is really showing. In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, flesh which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Only believers sow to the Spirit and from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Amen

Once again, there are "make believers" with us..

 

[mailmandan]

Amen

Once again, there are "make believers" with us..

It's not uncommon at all to run into them in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God himself declares that he intends to save some and not others

That's what satan keep saying!

So, is your claim that all of these scripture references are ...lies that Jesus put in God's Word???
Which is calling Jesus... a liar???

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Paul doesn't indicate that it is God's "will" that all be saved.

That's the problem with you calvinists.... you are being taught by demons!

Since this is what you believe.... maybe it's not God's will for YOU to be saved!

Since you have stated you don't believe it's God's will for everyone to be saved... in spite of scriptures they clearly state it IS His will that none perish... you really have nothing to base your faith upon for salvation.

You just might be one of the one God decided... meh, I'm not saving that guy!

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's what satan keep saying!

Where and when did Satan say it? You are making stuff up.

So, is your claim that all of these scripture references are ...lies that Jesus put in God's Word???

Before I answer, you need to show or demonstrate how my position contradicts God's word. It doesn't. In fact, if you understood what you read, you would realize that the scriptures you presented support my position.

That's the problem with you calvinists.... you are being taught by demons!

I can tell by your histrionics that you don't read or understand the scriptures much. I recommend that you spend more time in Bible study, meditating on God's word. And try to understand what someone is saying before answering. And above all, try to formulate an opinion related to the topic at hand.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's the problem with you calvinists.... you are being taught by demons!

One of the ways that people avoid the truth is to associate an idea with a negative subject or a hated person. This allows them to dismiss ideas out of hand, without due consideration. This is what you have done here. Rather than interact with what I said, and face it squarely and fairly, you have categorized my views as "Calvinistic" as if to say, "He's a Calvinist, therefore I don't need to hear anything he says." And you have given yourself permission to accuse a brother in the Lord of following Satan.

How's that working out for you?

Since you have stated you don't believe it's God's will for everyone to be saved... in spite of scriptures they clearly state it IS His will that none perish... you really have nothing to base your faith upon for salvation.

Let's examine the passage to see if the apostle used the phrase "God's will" or spoke about God's desire or wish.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

​

The Apostle aims to encourage his readers to remain patient and remember the promises of God. He warns that there will be mockers who claim that too much time has passed to take God's promises seriously. However, he explains that the apparent "delay" is intended for those who will eventually repent and come to believe in Jesus as the son of God. When the son of God returns, it will be too late for people to repent. Therefore, God is waiting for those who will eventually repent in the future.

The author argues that God's desire is for everyone to attain repentance, and not for anyone to perish. However, it is worth considering that this may take a long time since not everyone will repent. As a result, it is possible that Jesus Christ may never return. If God is waiting for everyone to repent, he will be sorely disappointed.

It appears that Peter's intended message is often misunderstood. He is not suggesting that God is waiting for every single person on earth to repent. Rather, God knows in advance who will ultimately repent, and he patiently waits for them. Therefore, we can interpret Peter's words as follows: God is waiting patiently because he knows that some individuals who have not yet repented will eventually do so. He desires that they, as future converts, should not perish.

If it was God's will that none should perish, then no person would ever die. He can do that if he wants. He has the power. But the question concerns those whom God is saving. What does the Bible say about them?

You just might be one of the one God decided... meh, I'm not saving that guy!

That is certainly a possibility. I hope not. But it might be true.

But you spoke of God's will and yet you seem to discount it or dismiss it. I wonder if you realize that. Why does Paul refer to faithful believers as "God's elect?" We tend to think that we are choosing to be saved, based on our confession of faith and our loyalty to Jesus Christ. That is how we see it from our point of view. But how does God see it? Does God have a choice? If not, then why talk about his will?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Where and when did Satan say it? You are making stuff up.

You said "God himself declares that he intends to save some and not others"

That's not what God's Word teaches ... and so I said "That's what satan keep saying! "

I just posted a bunch of scriptures that proves God did not say what you claimed He said... so, your statement came from demons, not from the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ which is the One responsible for the content of God's written Word.

Glad we got that all cleared up!

Before I answer, you need to show or demonstrate how my position contradicts God's word. It doesn't. In fact, if you understood what you read, you would realize that the scriptures you presented support my position.

Well then, in that case, I guess the hokey pokey really is what it's all about!

Try again homie! All the verses I posted don't even come close to saying what you arer saying.

I recommend that you spend more time in Bible study, meditating on God's word.

Yes, I've done that for several decades... which is how I discovered that the teachings of John Calvin are in opposition to God's Word and are in fact doctrines of demons!

John Calvin was an unrepentant murderer who put out orders for people to be killed for not agree with his false doctrines. It always amazes me that people want to follow someone with murder inb their heart rather than the Holy Spirit!

Following John Calvin is like following Charles Manson!

How's that working out for you?

Not following murderers like John Calvin is working out fantastic!

If it was God's will that none should perish, then no person would ever die.

That was His original plan... but Adam and Eve brought sin in to the world which brought death... spiritual death (separation from God) and physical (death of the physical body)

Man, calvin's people sure have confused you homie!

That is certainly a possibility. I hope not. But it might be true.

Wow! . . . So you admit that you have no idea whether you are Christian????

This is straight up unbelief... rejection of God's promises!

If you don't quit following calvin's peoples... you're going to end up in hell for all eternity!

 

[CadyandZoe]

You said "God himself declares that he intends to save some and not others"

That's not what God's Word teaches ... and so I said "That's what satan keep saying! "

In a discussion among Christians, we ask each other where to find each other's ideas in scripture. We don't accuse each other of following Satan. If you do this, we can move the conversation to a productive conclusion.

In his argument that God elects some Jews and not others for salvation, Paul the apostle quotes a verse from the Exodus. For our discussion, I will highlight three verses and comment.

Romans 9:14-18

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy . . .
Contrary to popular belief, salvation is not a matter of ratifying our choice by confessing Jesus Christ. Yes, we confess that Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior, as we should, but salvation is a matter of God's mercy. And as he says, he can be merciful to whomever he wants. Christians are erroneously taught that salvation is a quid-pro-quo exchange between God and man. I give God what he wants in exchange for what I want.

God doesn't need anything from me such that I can offer him something in exchange for eternal life. He doesn't need our praise, adoration, or worship. As Jesus has said, "I tell you, if these are silent, the stones will cry out!" He doesn't need our praise if God can cause the stones to cry out. We need something to offer him, but we come to him empty-handed; . According to Paul, salvation is an act of God's grace and mercy granted to those who are helpless and poor.

It does not depend on the man who wills . . .
We talk a lot about freedom of the will, but here, the Apostle forecloses on that discussion, asserting that salvation does NOT depend on the will of man. Salvation is a matter of God's will, not my will. Salvation is an act of his mercy, not an act of my accepting his mercy.

In the Christian community, there is a belief that God's grace is only offered up to the point of salvation. Some Christians believe one must reach out their hand and accept God's gift of salvation. However, according to Paul, salvation does NOT depend on an individual's choice to accept God's offer. God's salvation of an individual does not depend on the choice or choices of that individual. Accepting the offer itself is a feature or aspect of God's salvific work in the heart of those he has decided to save. If we try to offer something in exchange for salvation, it is no longer a matter of Grace but a quid-pro-quo.

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
I'm sure you caught what Peter said about God's desire that none should perish. However, in this passage, Paul seems to argue that God desires to harden some individuals while having mercy on others. This seems to contradict the idea that God wants no one to perish. To make sense of this, we must distinguish between God's will and desire. When we talk about God's desire, we are talking about His emotional disposition towards people. God loves each one of us deeply, but when we talk about God's will, we are talking about His actions in response to His feelings. According to Paul, God shows mercy to some people while hardening others.

I just posted a bunch of scriptures that proves God did not say what you claimed He said...

At the beginning of this post, I have shared some scriptural references that support my original argument. Unless you are willing to accept the idea that some verses are true while others are false, our disagreement is over the implications of the scriptures we each have presented. In my case, I quoted and explained the passage, demonstrating why the conventional understanding of salvation in Christianity is inconsistent with the Bible.

All the verses I posted don't even come close to saying what you are saying.

Of course not. But they don't defeat what I am saying either.

Yes, I've done that for several decades... which is how I discovered that the teachings of John Calvin are in opposition to God's Word and are in fact doctrines of demons!

Did you actually read Calvin?

John Calvin was an unrepentant murderer who put out orders for people to be killed for not agree with his false doctrines. It always amazes me that people want to follow someone with murder inb their heart rather than the Holy Spirit!

Following John Calvin is like following Charles Manson! View attachment 37898


Not following murderers like John Calvin is working out fantastic! View attachment 37899

Did you know that Satan is called "the accuser of our brethren"? Please don't be an accuser. Try to formulate rational arguments and present reasons from the scriptures for what you believe.

That was His original plan... but Adam and Eve brought sin in to the world which brought death... spiritual death (separation from God) and physical (death of the physical body)

So God wills that none should perish, but he is so impotent that a human being thwarted his plan? What kind of a God do you worship that can be defeated by a man?

Man, calvin's people sure have confused you homie!

Try to formulate reasons.