Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16? (For Jehovah's Witnesses)

[Keiw]

I will do it for you then....

Let's start with your first reference shall we!

Luke 12:32 is the "my Flock" of Ezek 34.

Luke 12:32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Ezek 34 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

17 “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats.
( Mat 25:32,33) 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.

Luke 12:32 is also the “Flock of thine heritage” of Micah 7:14

Shepherd your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance, who dwell alone in a forest in the midst of a garden land; let them graze in Bashan and Gilead as in the days of old.

And just to prove this is so Micah 7:6 is quoted in verse 53 of Luke 12 for context.

Luke 12:53 is referencing Micah 7:6

53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

So the Little flock = is the "Flock of His Inheritance" (Micah 7:14) which comes from the division of (fat & lean sheep / sheep and rams of Ezek 34 & Matt 25)

What I have shown you is a contextual study of the Word - it provides you context from OT to NT; it provides you multiple connections between OT and NT. It shows it's size, "little" is small compared to the vast number of wayward people who are judged, divided and refined through trials and suffering, many (most) found wanting!

TBC

Up next - Revelation 7:9

You live in error. I was taught by these-Matt 24:45--you should listen to them.

 

[Keiw]

So let's look forward in time from Luke 12 to Rev 7.

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Re 7:9.

Context:

- A great number of the Redeemed showing their respect to the Lamb because of the Victory has been obtained.
- They are celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles and praising the Lamb for the salvation they have personally received.
- John had asked the question as to who they would be and in Rev 7 their character and nature are described.

Can you see the identification here with Israel? Abraham was promised (Gen 13:16; 15:5), Israel is numberless as the stars of the sky, and the sand on the seashore.

As a side note, can you see the lesson of David numbering Israel here? God intervened and stopped it!...so they would remain numberless (spiritual principle)!

In keeping with Ezek 34, Micah 7, Luke 12 the judging between sheep and rams / fat and lean sheep - they are taken from "from all tribes and peoples and languages" a selection drawn out of such environment to comprise the true Israel of God as is written in Gal 6:16 & Eph 2:11-13.

So while a "little flock" at the time of Jesus' ministry...they would become a group of people no one person can number, which is later symbolised by Jew & Gentile saved 12 x 12 = 144 (144,000)

Where is the evidence?

The term thousands is used in that way in such places as per Num 1:16, 10:4, 36; 31:5 and elsewhere. The term "heads of the
thousands of Israel" (Num 1:16) is showing you how to interpret the 144,000 number.

These were the ones chosen from the community, leaders of their ancestral tribes. They were the heads of the thousands of Israel.
Numbers 1:16.

So the number of 144,000 denotes denotes the true families of Israel, made up of Jew & Gentile in Christ.

I think there is more than enough context here in both posts for you to work through prayerfully.

If you need a hand let me know

In the Masters service
F2F

Literal Israel is cut off--you would know that fact if you listened to Jesus-Matt 23:38--but every trinitarian on earth outright refuses to listen to Jesus.
Take the events of the current situation-Hamas attacks Israel- An evil act--Jesus taught his followers-Return evil for evil to no one.
Romans 12:17-21--Keep on conquering the evil with good. So in reality because to this day they reject Jesus-they say no i will not listen to you. Pride has more value to us than listening to you. Like all mortal govts. But Israels govt is run by the religion.
Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw an observation if I may. In my ongoing discussions with Aunty Jane I've noticed her OT knowledge is rather poor and it appears yours presents the same. I know your community walked away from Charles works in the OT, which happened to be spot on, and I believe your community is paying a hefty price for doing so. If you respond try forming the basis of your understanding from the OT which all the writers did under inspiration.

Just a tip

F2F

You dont understand the OT let alone the NT. YHWH(Jehovah) is the only true God in both.

 

[RR144]

No RR144 - only one Seed!

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. Gal 3:16

Their number is shown by stars and sands!

And who is CHRIST? Does not Christ mean Anointed, and are not all consecrated followers of Jesus also anointed. The Christ is Jesus as head and his Church as his body. Many members, one body. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29

 

[face2face]

You live in error. I was taught by these-Matt 24:45--you should listen to them.

Wow you couldn't even speak to the text...very telling indeed.

 

[RR144]

Literal Israel is cut off--you would know that fact if you listened to Jesus-Matt 23:38

I'm not a trinitarian and I don't believe the Scriptures to teach this. Romans Romans 11

Take the events of the current situation-Hamas attacks Israel- An evil act--Jesus taught his followers-Return evil for evil to no one.
Romans 12:17-21--Keep on conquering the evil with good.

Hmmm ... as if Hamas listens to what Jesus says.

So in reality because to this day they reject Jesus-they say no i will not listen to you. Pride has more value to us than listening to you. Like all mortal govts. But Israels govt is run by the religion.
Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.

Romans 11:25

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

What was it that Israel forfeited? Exclusive membership of the Body of Christ, but they rejected Jesus as Messiah, because they were blinded in part, some believed, majority didn't. So, on Pentecost, the Church spread out, and went to the gentiles to complete the Body. Jesus told the Jews, "I have sheep not of this fold" (John 10:16) What fold? The Jewish fold, the message went to the Gentile fold.

 

[face2face]

Literal Israel is cut off--you would know that fact if you listened to Jesus-Matt 23:38--but every trinitarian on earth outright refuses to listen to Jesus.
Take the events of the current situation-Hamas attacks Israel- An evil act--Jesus taught his followers-Return evil for evil to no one.
Romans 12:17-21--Keep on conquering the evil with good. So in reality because to this day they reject Jesus-they say no i will not listen to you. Pride has more value to us than listening to you. Like all mortal govts. But Israels govt is run by the religion.
Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.

It's a mistake you may not get to see you have made. Boast away Keiw!

For if Keiw were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (Jews), be grafted back into their own olive tree. Rom 11:24

How much more Keiw?

So ignorant and proud is your boasting you forget whose promises you have, or dont have!

F2F

 

[face2face]

And who is CHRIST? Does not Christ mean Anointed, and are not all consecrated followers of Jesus also anointed. The Christ is Jesus as head and his Church as his body. Many members, one body. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29

Only one seed as there is only one body...it's an important principle.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Literal Israel is cut off--you would know that fact if you listened to Jesus-Matt 23:38--but every trinitarian on earth outright refuses to listen to Jesus.
Take the events of the current situation-Hamas attacks Israel- An evil act--Jesus taught his followers-Return evil for evil to no one.
Romans 12:17-21--Keep on conquering the evil with good. So in reality because to this day they reject Jesus-they say no i will not listen to you. Pride has more value to us than listening to you. Like all mortal govts. But Israels govt is run by the religion.
Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.

There is a depth of ignorance in this above post which can only come about through the brainwashing process of organized religion. It's stronger in Aunty Jane, she willingly goes against OT Scripture to her own hurt and both of you having abandoned your founders teaching on natural Israel places you outside God's covenant work in Israel (natural and spiritual / OT & NT).
F2F
I'm also not a trinitarian.
Israel will trust in her weapons until God states otherwise!
Redemption is coming for them but a lot of suffering awaits them.

 

[face2face]

And who is CHRIST? Does not Christ mean Anointed, and are not all consecrated followers of Jesus also anointed. The Christ is Jesus as head and his Church as his body. Many members, one body. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29

Another important point RR is Christ being the head of that body means our faith is not ours, but his, the life promised is his, we are raised in his resurrection and its his glory with which we are glorified. We take part in his inheritance. Nothing we have is our own. All the promises are "yes" in him also.

It's why the atoning work God did in His Son is so important to understand. Pleased to hear you are not a 3n1 believer - great start.

F2F

 

[RR144]

No, not that “the world” would be blessed but that people of all nations would “bless themselves”….big difference.

"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed"

Tell me Jane, when was this fulfilled?

Jane, have you read Malachi chapter 3? Here are some parts:

(6) “For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. (7) Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the Lord of hosts. “But you said, ‘In what way shall we return?’

(11) “And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,” Says the Lord of hosts; (12) “And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land,” Says the Lord of hosts.

Those of all nations had to also accept Jehovah as the true God and Jesus was his appointed savior. Even in his denunciation of natural apostate Israel under the rule of the Pharisees, Jesus said in his rejection of them…
”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

And they will eventually. Now is NOT the time, the time will be during the Millennial Kingdom. That will be the educational time. When ALL will learn about God and what He did for mankind through his Son, Christ Jesus. The Heathen will learn, the scales will fall from Israel's eyes, like a blind man (Acts 9:18; Romans 11:25; Ephesians 4:8) and they will see the one whom they pierced. (Revelation 1:7) Read that 39th verse again. "you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” That day hasn't come yet. Like in the first century some believed and accepted, so too in our time, some believe and have accepted him. But as a Nation, they have not accepted him as of yet (Rev 1:7)

 

[Aunty Jane]

"And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed"

Tell me Jane, when was this fulfilled?

People of all nations have come to accept Jesus as the Christ all through these “last days”, but until Jesus comes to separate the “sheep from the goats”, the door of opportunity is still open to all nationalities, including the Jews….the one proviso that applies to all is ‘blessing the one who came in Jehovah’s name’. That is recognizing Jesus as the Messiah…the redeemer of all mankind who search for the true God and obey the teachings of his son who was “sent“ to save them…..what are they being saved from?

Jane, have you read Malachi chapter 3? Here are some parts:

(6) “For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. (7) Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,” Says the Lord of hosts. “But you said, ‘In what way shall we return?’

(11) “And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground, Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,” Says the Lord of hosts; (12) “And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land,” Says the Lord of hosts.

And the danger there is…..where did you pluck that scripture from, and in what time period did it apply?
You see, it’s what you left out that tells the story…..only half of it.

Malachi wrote his book after a remnant of Jews had returned from captivity in Babylon. It had been about a hundred years since the first exiles returned, with the walls of Jerusalem finally repaired and the Temple rebuilt, MalachIi was sent to the Jews to strengthen their resolve to return to Jehovah with all their heart.
Up to that time they had allowed opposers to hinder their work….they had not relied on Jehovah but allowed fear of man to hold them back.

When you quoted verse 11 why did you not include verse 8-10?

“Will a mere human rob God? But you are robbing me.”
And you say: “How have we robbed you?”
“In the tithes and in the contributions. 9 You are certainly cursed, for you are robbing me—yes, the entire nation is doing so. 10 Bring the entire tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this regard,” Jehovah of armies says, “to see whether I will not open to you the floodgates of the heavens and pour out on you a blessing until there is nothing lacking.”

This is a chastisement for not living up to their vow of dedication to Jehovah God, imposed on them from birth. Jehovah pleads with them to come back to him, and see his blessing upon them…..then he said the following….

11 “And I will rebuke the devouring one for you, and it will not ruin the fruit of your land, nor will the vine in your field be fruitless,” says Jehovah of armies.
12 “All the nations will have to declare you happy, for you will become a land of delight,” says Jehovah of armies.”

If they did the right thing by God, he would do the right thing by them.
Do you see now what this is all about? Were you not taught to read the scriptures in context?
Cherry picking isolated verses is what people do when they want to promote an idea that context will destroy. How do you plead?

And they will eventually. Now is NOT the time, the time will be during the Millennial Kingdom. That will be the educational time. When ALL will learn about God and what He did for mankind through his Son, Christ Jesus. The Heathen will learn, the scales will fall from Israel's eyes, like a blind man (Acts 9:18; Romans 11:25; Ephesians 4:8) and they will see the one whom they pierced. (Revelation 1:7) Read that 39th verse again. "you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” That day hasn't come yet. Like in the first century some believed and accepted, so too in our time, some believe and have accepted him. But as a Nation, they have not accepted him as of yet (Rev 1:7)

Do the words of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ themselves not tell you that the natural Jews blew any chance they had as a nation to become what God held out to them?….it was based solely on their obedience to his laws and commands through his prophets….and we all know that they failed time and time again. God’s patience has its limits. He did what he said he would do and produced the Messiah through the family line of Abraham…and then gave Israel first opportunity to become disciples of their Messiah…..and what did they do? They did what they had always done…..
Jesus passed sentence on them….
”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.” (Matt 23:37-39)

John the Baptist also warned them…Matt 3:9-12…
“Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean up his threshing floor completely and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”

You can read this and still cannot see that God is done with natural Israel? There is no more forgiveness….the ax fell and the fruitless trees were cut down, and thrown into the fire of “Gehenna”…..(Matt 23:33) By their continuing unfaithful conduct, they have not earned God’s forgiveness and they cannot undo what their forebears did to Jesus (as a nation), unless individuals from that nation come to their senses and admit that their forefathers did the wrong thing, and repent…..God will forgive those ones, but he chose a new “Israel“ to complete his purpose….ones who have proven faithful like the men and women of old who served the same God, only faithfully. With examples like that, Israel had no excuses….they still don’t. (Matt 21:42-46)

 

[RR144]

If you are familiar with the faculty of free will, you will understand that God would have all contingencies covered…no matter what choices Adam and his wife made, he would rise to deal with them.

Of course, that's the concept behind Luke 14:28, counting the cost before building. Jehovah knew that in creating free will, whether angelic or human, the opportunity to abuse it would present itself. How will He deal with it? The permission of evil comes to play, allow mankind to experience the folly of their ways, and rectify via the ransom.

His Omniscience is something he controls….if he chooses not to know something, he then allows the decisions of his free willed children to dictate his responses.

That's silly, don't you think that the moment He thinks about not knowing something He already knows? ;)

Because God doesn’t have a “plan” he can alter his course to accommodate something that happens to challenge his stated purpose…..the reason for the flood of Noah’s day is a classic example….demon followers of the devil interfered in such a way as to threaten God’s intentions, so he limited theirs. Drastic action was needed and that is why God flooded the world. It was nothing more than a reset, putting God’s purpose back on track.

Ephesians 3:11

According to the Plan of the Ages, which formed for the Anointed Jesus our Lord." (Diaglott)

Here's a few more:

"This was consistent with the plan he had from the beginning of time that he accomplished through Christ Jesus our Lord". (CEB)
"God did this according to his eternal plan. And he was able to do what he had planned because of all Christ Jesus our Lord had done". (CEV)
"This agrees with the plan God had since the beginning of time. He did what he planned, and he did it through Christ Jesus our Lord". (ERV)
"This was God’s plan for all of history which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord". (GW)
"This agrees with the purpose God had since the beginning of time. And God carried out his plan through Christ Jesus our Lord." (ICB)

Let's look at some definitions:
PURPOSE: The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or goal. Determination; resolution;

A PLAN is typically any diagram or list of steps with details of timing and resources, used to achieve an objective to do something. It is commonly understood as a temporal set of intended actions through which one expects to achieve a goal. An orderly or step-by-step conception or proposal for accomplishing an objective.

But hey, if you want to believe that Jehovah has to veer and alter his purpose because the adversary keeps getting in his way or because he chooses not to know and has to go to "Plan B" or whatever plan He's on today (Plan ZZZZ???) You go right ahead. It doesn't change the facts. But it's nice to know that God has revealed his Plan step by step from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21

 

[RR144]

Another important point RR is Christ being the head of that body means our faith is not ours, but his, the life promised is his, we are raised in his resurrection and its his glory with which we are glorified. We take part in his inheritance. Nothing we have is our own. All the promises are "yes" in him also.

It's why the atoning work God did in His Son is so important to understand. Pleased to hear you are not a 3n1 believer - great start.

I agree!

 

[RR144]

People of all nations have come to accept Jesus as the Christ all through these “last days”, but until Jesus comes to separate the “sheep from the goats”, the door of opportunity is still open to all nationalities, including the Jews….the one proviso that applies to all is ‘blessing the one who came in Jehovah’s name’. That is recognizing Jesus as the Messiah…the redeemer of all mankind who search for the true God and obey the teachings of his son who was “sent“ to save them…..what are they being saved from?

There's where we differ, as the separating of the sheep and the goats is during the Millennial Kingdom, not before, but during.

And the danger there is…..where did you pluck that scripture from, and in what time period did it apply?
You see, it’s what you left out that tells the story…..only half of it.

Malachi wrote his book after a remnant of Jews had returned from captivity in Babylon. It had been about a hundred years since the first exiles returned, with the walls of Jerusalem finally repaired and the Temple rebuilt, MalachIi was sent to the Jews to strengthen their resolve to return to Jehovah with all their heart.
Up to that time they had allowed opposers to hinder their work….they had not relied on Jehovah but allowed fear of man to hold them back.

When you quoted verse 11 why did you not include verse 8-10?

“Will a mere human rob God? But you are robbing me.”
And you say: “How have we robbed you?”
“In the tithes and in the contributions. 9 You are certainly cursed, for you are robbing me—yes, the entire nation is doing so. 10 Bring the entire tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in my house; and test me out, please, in this regard,” Jehovah of armies says, “to see whether I will not open to you the floodgates of the heavens and pour out on you a blessing until there is nothing lacking.”

This is a chastisement for not living up to their vow of dedication to Jehovah God, imposed on them from birth. Jehovah pleads with them to come back to him, and see his blessing upon them…..then he said the following….

11 “And I will rebuke the devouring one for you, and it will not ruin the fruit of your land, nor will the vine in your field be fruitless,” says Jehovah of armies.
12 “All the nations will have to declare you happy, for you will become a land of delight,” says Jehovah of armies.”

If they did the right thing by God, he would do the right thing by them.
Do you see now what this is all about? Were you not taught to read the scriptures in context?
Cherry picking isolated verses is what people do when they want to promote an idea that context will destroy. How do you plead?

The problem we have here Jane, is that you want to quote all the bad things about Israel. How they failed God over and over again, how they rejected Jesus. And yet despite all their failings, which by the way Jehovah knew they would fail. That's why He gave them the LAW, because He knew they wouldn't be able to keep it. Despite it all, despite all His chastisements, He continued to deal with them. Don't the prophecies themselves tell us that they would reject Jesus? And yet he tells them that

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. 28 And it shall come to pass, that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to throw down, to destroy, and to afflict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the Lord." Jeremiah 31:27, 28

Then he states:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their [i]hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (vss 31-33)

Paul quotes these very verses in Hebrews 8:8-12. The New Covenant is made with Israel, that hasn't changed. Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant, and the Church, his body members will assist him in that regards. THE CHRIST, head and body. That's why in Galatians 3:16, Paul writes: "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ." Then in verse 29 he writes: "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Do the words of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ themselves not tell you that the natural Jews blew any chance they had as a nation to become what God held out to them?….it was based solely on their obedience to his laws and commands through his prophets….and we all know that they failed time and time again. God’s patience has its limits. He did what he said he would do and produced the Messiah through the family line of Abraham…and then gave Israel first opportunity to become disciples of their Messiah…..and what did they do? They did what they had always done…..
Jesus passed sentence on them….
”Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.” (Matt 23:37-39)

John the Baptist also warned them…Matt 3:9-12…
“Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean up his threshing floor completely and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”

You can read this and still cannot see that God is done with natural Israel? There is no more forgiveness….the ax fell and the fruitless trees were cut down, and thrown into the fire of “Gehenna”…..(Matt 23:33) By their continuing unfaithful conduct, they have not earned God’s forgiveness and they cannot undo what their forebears did to Jesus (as a nation), unless individuals from that nation come to their senses and admit that their forefathers did the wrong thing, and repent…..God will forgive those ones, but he chose a new “Israel“ to complete his purpose….ones who have proven faithful like the men and women of old who served the same God, only faithfully. With examples like that, Israel had no excuses….they still don’t. (Matt 21:42-46)

and yet what do you do with ALL those prophecies, all those promises and all those verses in both the Old and New Testament that speaks of their restoration and return? NO matter how you try you CAN'T spiritualize them. They can ONLY be fulfilled in Natural Israel.

What you're missing Jane, is WHAT they failed to gain. They failed to be EXCLUSIVELY members of the body of Christ. Because of their rejection of Messiah as a whole, the opportunity was given to the Gentiles. But keep in mind that there are promises that God made to the Nation of Israel that didn't require a covenant. they were promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob They didn't need to do anything. Again, read Romans 11, what the Apostle Paul is saying.

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable [for He does not withdraw what He has given, nor does He change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call]." (vs 29)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Of course, that's the concept behind Luke 14:28, counting the cost before building. Jehovah knew that in creating free will, whether angelic or human, the opportunity to abuse it would present itself. How will He deal with it? The permission of evil comes to play, allow mankind to experience the folly of their ways, and rectify via the ransom.

If you read scripture as written, you will see that in the creation of humankind God acted once...He created all things, and then rested on the 7th day and allowed the humans to make their choices in accordance with his instructions.......he obviously had in mind an idyllic existence for them and all they had to do was to comply with one limitation that he placed on them.......it wasn’t difficult, nor did it impose any hardship on them......but when the original rebel stepped in and derailed God’s purpose for their creation, only then did he react to their free willed choices.

That's silly, don't you think that the moment He thinks about not knowing something He already knows? ;)

Silly? Does God automatically know everything or can he choose not to know? If he gave humans free will, it is obvious that they can make any one of several choices concerning many matters. God would have a contingency plan for all eventualities so that whatever they chose to do, he would respond accordingly.

Ephesians 3:11

According to the Plan of the Ages, which formed for the Anointed Jesus our Lord." (Diaglott)

Here's a few more:

"This was consistent with the plan he had from the beginning of time that he accomplished through Christ Jesus our Lord". (CEB)
"God did this according to his eternal plan. And he was able to do what he had planned because of all Christ Jesus our Lord had done". (CEV)
"This agrees with the plan God had since the beginning of time. He did what he planned, and he did it through Christ Jesus our Lord". (ERV)
"This was God’s plan for all of history which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord". (GW)
"This agrees with the purpose God had since the beginning of time. And God carried out his plan through Christ Jesus our Lord." (ICB)

How long did it take you to find translations that rendered the word “prothesis” as “plan” rather than “purpose”?

From NASB Strongs....

Act 27:13
When a moderate south wind came up, supposing that they had attained their purpose, G4286 they weighed anchorand began sailing along Crete, close inshore.

Rom 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work togetherfor good to those who love God, to those who are calledaccording to His purpose. G428

Rom 9:11
for though the twins were not yet born and had not doneanything good or bad, so that God’s purpose G4286 according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

Eph 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose G4286 who works allthings after the counsel of His will,

Eph 3:11
This was in accordance with the eternal purpose G4286 which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

2Ti 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His ownpurpose G4286 and grace which was granted us in ChristJesus from all eternity”.

2Ti 3:10
Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, G4286 faith, patience, love, perseverance,

There are way more versions that translate “purpose” rather than “plan”.
Proof

Let's look at some definitions:
PURPOSE: The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or goal. Determination; resolution;

A PLAN is typically any diagram or list of steps with details of timing and resources, used to achieve an objective to do something. It is commonly understood as a temporal set of intended actions through which one expects to achieve a goal. An orderly or step-by-step conception or proposal for accomplishing an objective.

Yes, and that is why Jehovah cannot have a plan as much as he has a purpose. Free will makes a plan impossible.....a purpose is achieved regardless of obstacles placed in the path.

But hey, if you want to believe that Jehovah has to veer and alter his purpose because the adversary keeps getting in his way or because he chooses not to know and has to go to "Plan B" or whatever plan He's on today (Plan ZZZZ???) You go right ahead. It doesn't change the facts. But it's nice to know that God has revealed his Plan step by step from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21

God never alters his purpose, but sometimes he has to get there via a different route.
Did God plan for the devil to rebel? Did he plan for Adam and Eve to sin? Did he go to all the trouble of making them a garden paradise, only to evict them for abusing their free will?
Do you really think that God planned for the flood to happen? Or was it a reaction to what the demon angels had done?
Did he plan for Israel to be disobedient and to worship other gods, or did he have to keep correcting and punishing them in order to keep his purpose in connection with them, on track. They were chosen for a specific purpose and God fulfilled his purpose, even though they made it very difficult for him

God revealed his purpose from Genesis to Revelation and we see how often he was forced to take a side-step to keep things as they should be. Did he plan for the Israelites to wander in the wilderness for 40 years? Did he plan for them to be exiled in Babylon for 70 years? Did he plan for Moses not to enter the promised land when he had liberated his people and guided them through the wilderness all that time? Did God plan for John the Baptist to be murdered? Where do you stop and think about how often things had to be dealt with as they arose?

Free will does not fit in with a plan.....but it does fit in with a purpose. A plan is the route....a purpose is the destination. God always reaches his desired destination, no matter what route he has to take to get there.

 

[Keiw]

I'm not a trinitarian and I don't believe the Scriptures to teach this. Romans Romans 11

Hmmm ... as if Hamas listens to what Jesus says.

Romans 11:25

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

What was it that Israel forfeited? Exclusive membership of the Body of Christ, but they rejected Jesus as Messiah, because they were blinded in part, some believed, majority didn't. So, on Pentecost, the Church spread out, and went to the gentiles to complete the Body. Jesus told the Jews, "I have sheep not of this fold" (John 10:16) What fold? The Jewish fold, the message went to the Gentile fold.

The little flock is the fold mentioned, not literal Israel religion. They refuse to do Matt 23:39 thus are cut off. Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen. A new religion began back then-Acts 24:5

 

[Keiw]

It's a mistake you may not get to see you have made. Boast away Keiw!

For if Keiw were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches (Jews), be grafted back into their own olive tree. Rom 11:24

How much more Keiw?

So ignorant and proud is your boasting you forget whose promises you have, or dont have!

F2F

Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen, not literal Israel religion. A new religion started-Acts 24:5

 

[Keiw]

There is a depth of ignorance in this above post which can only come about through the brainwashing process of organized religion. It's stronger in Aunty Jane, she willingly goes against OT Scripture to her own hurt and both of you having abandoned your founders teaching on natural Israel places you outside God's covenant work in Israel (natural and spiritual / OT & NT).
F2F
I'm also not a trinitarian.
Israel will trust in her weapons until God states otherwise!
Redemption is coming for them but a lot of suffering awaits them.

We believe Jesus-Matt 23:38

 

[face2face]

Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen, not literal Israel religion. A new religion started-Acts 24:5

How much more Keiw?