Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16? (For Jehovah's Witnesses)

[face2face]

Jesus gives this promise to the great crowd-Matt 5:5-Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the EARTH.

A promise for all Saints.

 

[face2face]

Jesus gives this promise to the great crowd-Matt 5:5-Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the EARTH.

@Aunty Jane out of interest, do you believe the Lord's words here are only for a literal 144,000 Saints?
Surely not!

 

[Keiw]

A promise for all Saints.

The little flock( Luke 12:32) =144,000 bought from the earth to heaven( Rev 14:3)

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane out of interest, do you believe the Lord's words here are only for a literal 144,000 Saints?
Surely not!

144,000 to heaven( Rev 14:3)--The great crowd( Rev 7:9)of other sheep( John10:16) who are not of that fold no man can number stay on Earth.

 

[face2face]

The little flock( Luke 12:32) =144,000 bought from the earth to heaven( Rev 14:3)

Do you know what a long bow? Well this above comment isn't even that. You have no reference, not even a quotation to support your understanding. To connect two sections of Scripture without any evidence to do so is futile. However, if you were true to the context on both passages, now that's another story.

Asking you to honor the record might be a step too far on this one Keiw.

F2F

 

[face2face]

144,000 to heaven( Rev 14:3)--The great crowd( Rev 7:9)of other sheep( John10:16) who are not of that fold no man can number stay on Earth.

It's either a willing ignorance that you ignored my question or it's possible you are so brainwashed you can post anything other than your poorly scripted responses.

Is Jesus' sermon on the mount only given for the 144,000 - yes or no?

You said Matthew 5:5 relates to the 144,000

Can you answer that question?

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Do you know what a long bow? Well this above comment isn't even that. You have no reference, not even a quotation to support your understanding. To connect two sections of Scripture without any evidence to do so is futile. However, if you were true to the context on both passages, now that's another story.

Asking you to honor the record might be a step too far on this one Keiw.

F2F

Everyone in Gods light knows my post is fact.

 

[Keiw]

It's either a willing ignorance that you ignored my question or it's possible you are so brainwashed you can post anything other than your poorly scripted responses.

Is Jesus' sermon on the mount only given for the 144,000 - yes or no?

You said Matthew 5:5 relates to the 144,000

Can you answer that question?

F2F

I said Matt 5:5 is to the great crowd no man can number, not to the 144,000. 144,000 are bought from the earth= to heaven.( Rev 14:3)--try to read a little more carefully.

 

[RR144]

Actually the "other sheep", not of the fold of the "little flock" are identified in Revelation ch 7.
John sees those "sealed" (anointed, chosen, elected) in verse 4, numbering 144,000 out of all the tribes of Israel....but these are not literal Israel, but spiritual Israel...."the Israel of God" are Christians and include both believing Gentiles and Jews. (Galatians 6:16)

I'm sorry Jane, but how do you jump from John to Revelation? There is no connection between the two. When you read John in context, it's obvious that he was speaking about the Gentiles, after all he was speaking to the Jews, because the Gospel was "to the Jews first" (Romans 1:16; 2:10) Jesus himself stated that he came to "the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Jesus wasn't talking about paradise earth. He was talking about those who would make up the elect class. Would you agree that if 144,000 Jews had accepted Jesus =, the Kingdom would be here?

 

[face2face]

I said Matt 5:5 is to the great crowd no man can number, not to the 144,000. 144,000 are bought from the earth= to heaven.( Rev 14:3)--try to read a little more carefully.

So why did you quote Matt 5:5 in relation to your little flock doctrine?

 

[face2face]

I'm sorry Jane, but how do you jump from John to Revelation? There is no connection between the two. When you read John in context, it's obvious that he was speaking about the Gentiles, after all he was speaking to the Jews, because the Gospel was "to the Jews first" (Romans 1:16; 2:10) Jesus himself stated that he came to "the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Jesus wasn't talking about paradise earth. He was talking about those who would make up the elect class. Would you agree that if 144,000 Jews had accepted Jesus =, the Kingdom would be here?

I'm having the same problem with Keiw - they connect to passages of Scripture with totally different context without proving any connection whartsoever. It's as though they have create the false teaching first then assigned verses which they believe a proof text.
It's an extreme case of confirmation bias.
F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm sorry Jane, but how do you jump from John to Revelation?

Easy....they both have the same writer and the same source for their information....
Just because my beliefs are contrary to yours, doesn't make them wrong....although I know that you want them to be.

There is no connection between the two.

Do you believe that the Bible was the product of God's spirit? Do you believe that Jesus knew every word in it because he was there when it was written? Do you think that he knew exactly what the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 was all about? Of course he did, because so willingly volunteered to be that seed....the one promised to Abraham, recorded at Gen 22:1-18....

"I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”
Since "all nations" were going to "obtain a blessing" through that seed of Abraham, then it was never going to be all about the Jews.

In fact the fleshly Jews had let down their God so badly that he chose a new "Israel" to replace them. He had every right to terminate his covenant with them because it was they who broke it through their disobedience. The "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were chosen for positions in heaven to rule over redeemed mankind.
John the Baptist summed up the situation....
Matt 3:8-10.....
"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

The ax fell and the trees were cut down. Their relationship with Abraham would not save them. Only those who accepted God's Messiah would be saved.

When you read John in context, it's obvious that he was speaking about the Gentiles, after all he was speaking to the Jews, because the Gospel was "to the Jews first" (Romans 1:16; 2:10) Jesus himself stated that he came to "the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Jesus wasn't talking about paradise earth. He was talking about those who would make up the elect class.

Jesus' ministry was exclusively to the Jews for that reason...they had first dibs out of respect for their forefather, Abraham....not because of any merit they had earned themselves.

Would you agree that if 144,000 Jews had accepted Jesus =, the Kingdom would be here?

No.....God already knew how it would all play out before Jesus was even born. Daniel prophesied about "the time of the end" and even who the world leaders would be at this time. (Daniel 2:44) He foresaw the coronation of Jesus as King of God's Kingdom some 500 years before he was born as a human. (Daniel :13-14)

So from my studies, all is continuing exactly as God had foretold by means of his prophets....but only in this time of the end were we to have a "faithful and discreet slave" to guide us through these difficult days. These would feed Christ's disciples their "food at the proper time", meaning that we will be told what we need to know, when we need to know it. ( Matt 24:43-45; 2 Tim 3:1-5)

I have faith in that......and the continuing revelation that comes through this appointed "slave".

 

[Keiw]

So why did you quote Matt 5:5 in relation to your little flock doctrine?

post 21 is clear-its to the great crowd--read more carefully.

 

[Keiw]

I'm having the same problem with Keiw - they connect to passages of Scripture with totally different context without proving any connection whartsoever. It's as though they have create the false teaching first then assigned verses which they believe a proof text.
It's an extreme case of confirmation bias.
F2F

only to those in darkness, because their teachers have no clue and haven't taught on the matter.

 

[Aunty Jane]

only to those in darkness, because their teachers have no clue and haven't taught on the matter.

I have a suspicion that F2F is his own teacher….. We know that those who teach have greater accountability….
Hebrews 13:7, 17….
”Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith. . . . .17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”

Jesus doesn’t accept ignorance as an excuse. (Matt 7:21-23) We are either teaching God’s truth, or the devil’s lies…..what we accept as truth determines whether we get an invitation from God to become part of his spiritual family…..or not. (John 644; 65)

 

[Keiw]

I have a suspicion that F2F is his own teacher….. We know that those who teach have greater accountability….
Hebrews 13:7, 17….
”Remember those who are taking the lead among you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out, imitate their faith. . . . .17 Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”

Jesus doesn’t accept ignorance as an excuse. (Matt 7:21-23) We are either teaching God’s truth, or the devil’s lies…..what we accept as truth determines whether we get an invitation from God to become part of his spiritual family…..or not. (John 644; 65)

Almost starting to seem like he is an apostate.

 

[face2face]

post 21 is clear-its to the great crowd--read more carefully.

Nothing is clear Keiw...you make unfounded connections using random leaps of logic.

 

[face2face]

only to those in darkness, because their teachers have no clue and haven't taught on the matter.

Correct...you have failed to show and connection or relevance to Matt 5. Your twising of the 144,000 symbol is well noted and documented in this forum.

 

[RR144]

Easy....they both have the same writer and the same source for their information....
Just because my beliefs are contrary to yours, doesn't make them wrong....although I know that you want them to be.

Not so "easy" Jane. You're grouping verses together to fit your theology. There is NOTHING in the Revelation verses that connect it to the other sheep, NOTHING.

Do you believe that the Bible was the product of God's spirit? Do you believe that Jesus knew every word in it because he was there when it was written? Do you think that he knew exactly what the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 was all about? Of course he did, because so willingly volunteered to be that seed....

I'm not so sure. If Abraham and Isaac were a picture of Jehovah and Jesus. Did Isaac know that he was the sacrifice?

the one promised to Abraham, recorded at Gen 22:1-18....

"I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

Since "all nations" were going to "obtain a blessing" through that seed of Abraham, then it was never going to be all about the Jews.

The seed of Abraham came in to two as s=we from the above verse. The Stars of heaven (the heavenly sees) and the sand on the seashore" the early seed. The earthly, Israel will represent the heavenly seed on earth, they will be the visible ruler on earth. Through them ALL nations will be blessed.

In fact the fleshly Jews had let down their God so badly that he chose a new "Israel" to replace them. He had every right to terminate his covenant with them because it was they who broke it through their disobedience. The "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were chosen for positions in heaven to rule over redeemed mankind.
John the Baptist summed up the situation....
Matt 3:8-10.....
"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

The ax fell and the trees were cut down. Their relationship with Abraham would not save them. Only those who accepted God's Messiah would be saved.

Jesus' ministry was exclusively to the Jews for that reason...they had first dibs out of respect for their forefather, Abraham....not because of any merit they had earned themselves.

Jesus ministry was exclusively to the Jews in that the promises to be Kingdom heirs were theirs. True they rejected Christ as the promise messiah and they forfeited being exclusively part of the 144,000. Jesus tells them, "not to worry, I have other sheep not of this fold, that fold was the gentile fold, the Gospel would then go to the Gentile nations in due time, to complete the number.

That's why Paul could say:

"I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles." (Romans 11:11)​

​

He then tells the Romans:

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."​

Paul; says they are "blind" in part .... "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in" Until the number of the elect is filled.

He goes on to quote Isaiah 59:20 in verse 26:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”​

He's made a covenant with Israel and He will take away their sins.

He goes on to say:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

​

What does he say in verse 29? That "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." What does that mean? According to the dictionary it means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final." And that's exactly what Jehovah told David:

"My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips." Psalms 89:34​

No.....God already knew how it would all play out before Jesus was even born. Daniel prophesied about "the time of the end" and even who the world leaders would be at this time. (Daniel 2:44) He foresaw the coronation of Jesus as King of God's Kingdom some 500 years before he was born as a human. (Daniel :13-14)

Really? Not according to the Watchtower. They claim that God doesn't have a plan, he has a purpose. You see a Plan is well thought out, beginning, middle and end. A Purpose is not so thought out. It happens, and he begins to work towards that end. They teach that God doesn't know, or that he chooses NOT to know. Which is odd, because once God choose NOT to know, He already knows it!

So from my studies, all is continuing exactly as God had foretold by means of his prophets....but only in this time of the end were we to have a "faithful and discreet slave" to guide us through these difficult days. These would feed Christ's disciples their "food at the proper time", meaning that we will be told what we need to know, when we need to know it. (Matt 24:43-45; 2 Tim 3:1-5)

I have faith in that......and the continuing revelation that comes through this appointed "slave".

Well, it's been 100 years, and the record shows your so-called "slave class" aren't so wise and faithful to God's Word. It's constantly being changed and revised. Which shows exactly what they'[ve been teaching, that God has a purpose, the purpose doesn't change, but all the details do. As opposed to a thought-out plan.

RR

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not so "easy" Jane. You're grouping verses together to fit your theology. There is NOTHING in the Revelation verses that connect it to the other sheep, NOTHING.

That depends on what you have been led to believe….and as you know, it’s who you believe that matter, not just what you believe.….you have chosen to believe those who guide you, and I have chosen the ones who speak to my heart……we will all stand or fall by whom we choose as our ”faithful and discreet slave”…..Jesus asked “who really is he?”…..we decide that for ourselves.

I'm not so sure. If Abraham and Isaac were a picture of Jehovah and Jesus. Did Isaac know that he was the sacrifice?

Isaac did not protest or try to escape even when his father placed him on the alter….he was not a child at this time, but a young man so he could easily have overpowered his elderly father.….this was pictorial of Jehovah offering his son…..both willing to do the unthinkable because it was commanded by Jehovah.
Redemption was offering the correct payment to clear a debt….in both instances, God provided the sacrifice….and Jesus was the sinless life required to pay the debt that Adam left for all of us.

The seed of Abraham came in to two as s=we from the above verse. The Stars of heaven (the heavenly sees) and the sand on the seashore" the early seed. The earthly, Israel will represent the heavenly seed on earth, they will be the visible ruler on earth. Through them ALL nations will be blessed.

You will have to explain that one…makes no sense to me.

Jesus ministry was exclusively to the Jews in that the promises to be Kingdom heirs were theirs. True they rejected Christ as the promise messiah and they forfeited being exclusively part of the 144,000. Jesus tells them, "not to worry, I have other sheep not of this fold, that fold was the gentile fold, the Gospel would then go to the Gentile nations in due time, to complete the number.

Revelation 7 shows us that there are two groups…..those with the Lamb on heavenly Mt Zion are the 144,000 and these are the “little flock”…..and the “great crowd” are the other sheep…..there are only two groups and one is made up of Jewish and Gentile Christians who are heaven bound…..and the other is seen coming out of the great tribulation on earth….that is what is plain as day to me….maybe not to you.

Really? Not according to the Watchtower. They claim that God doesn't have a plan, he has a purpose. You see a Plan is well thought out, beginning, middle and end. A Purpose is not so thought out. It happens, and he begins to work towards that end. They teach that God doesn't know, or that he chooses NOT to know. Which is odd, because once God choose NOT to know, He already knows it!

We understand why God’s purpose arrives at its destination no matter what route it takes. Once Adam sinned, the detour began with the eviction of the first pair from their paradise home and the first prophesy at Gen 3:15. No one really knew who the players were in that scenario until that seed arrived. It was all part of “the sacred mystery” and why God reveals his secrets gradually…what his people need to know, when they need to know it. It has always been that way. Like tantalizing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle when you get to find where they fit into the big picture.

Well, it's been 100 years, and the record shows your so-called "slave class" aren't so wise and faithful to God's Word.

Well, despite not completely understanding things until God revealed them, I think they did quite well. They were spot on with 1914 and the evidence of the last days beginning…..God fully reveals his intentions when it is time for him to act.
If the light on the path is supposed to get brighter, (Prov 4:18) closer to the light of dawn, then we would worry if there was nothing left to dish up as a tasty meal in God’s house of servants. We are not in the dark any longer…..the great tribulation is about to be unleashed, and only God’s true servants, “the great crowd”will have his protection In order to “come out of it”.

It's constantly being changed and revised. Which shows exactly what they'[ve been teaching, that God has a purpose, the purpose doesn't change, but all the details do. As opposed to a thought-out plan.

It is constantly being clarified as these last days progress. The path is getting more light cast on it as God’s day of reckoning progresses to its conclusion.

God’s purpose has never changed since Adam’s creation, but a detour was necessary when Adam and his wife veered off the path by succumbing to the devil’s temptations.….so, in order to bring us back to his original intentions for this earth and everything on it, he adjusted his actions to suit his purpose. We will arrive at our destination right on time…..God cannot plan what free willed beings will do, but he responds to their choices in his own way and time. If there was no free will, then what happened in Eden would never have taken place.