Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

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Episkopos

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Bible scholars are leaving Christianity in droves. Why?
Not because they don't understand the Bible, obviously. (they're Bible scholars)

- Do you have to be Christian to believe in God?
- Do you have to agree with the institutional church's positions to believe in God?






Previous topic on this subject.
Why? The deadness of the letter rather than the life of the Spirit.
 

keithr

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Not a possibility?
No, not "while he was a man".

Philippians 2:6-7 NIV
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Verse 6 is not talking about Jesus while he was a man, it's talking about Jesus before God changed Jesus' nature to be human (referred to in verse 7). As Jesus said twice in John 5, "the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing".
 

keithr

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Jesus said to them...

"I AM..... from Above and YOU are.... from Below".

He said this, while as a man talking to people.

Notice the 'I AM"....
I am not going down that path again (we're not supposed to discuss it in this forum!). Notice the "I am" - it doesn't mean that I am (there it is again!) God! ;) :jest:
 
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St. SteVen

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I can't think of any true doctrine (from God) that is presented as optional.
As I wrote: "Doctrines are man-made anyway." Different men, different options.
Nor contradictory doctrine (except false doctrine, of course, such as eternal torture rather than a second death).
None, except... (that a good example) Eternal torture. Acceptable doctrine to MOST of Christianity,
The Trinity doctrine contradicts God's plan of redemption of mankind.
Interesting.
Tell us more about that.
 

Behold

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"the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing".

That is the God Man in the "Lamb" position.

Jesus is "Emmanuel", ... .. "GOD with us". "manifested in the Flesh". 'Virgin born".

Yeshua is ..."Salvation" and that is God on the Cross, offering His BODY as ... John 3:16
 

Behold

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Why? The deadness of the letter

Paul said.

""""I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.""""


rather than the life of the Spirit.

Jesus said..

""""It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.""""


1.) "the flesh profiteth nothing" = All your works are as "filthy rags" .


2.) "The words i speak to you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE"...

Jesus said.. "All that BELIEVE in me, i give unto them ETERNAL LIFE".

Jesus said.."" I have come that you might have LIFE, and that more abundantly".

Paul teaches... "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the GIFT of God,"""
 

GeneZ

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You didn't specify which translation of the Bible you were quoting from, but that is a poor translation, translated with a Trinity bias - it's deceiving people into beleiving a lie. The verse should be translated something like:

John 1:18 (WEB):
(18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.​
or (Literal Standard Version):
(18) No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God who is on the bosom of the Father—He has expounded [Him].​

It should definitely not say "who is himself God"!

The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

the only begotten Son] The question of reading here is very interesting. Most MSS. and versions have ‘the only-begotten Son’ or ‘only-begotten Son.’ But the three oldest and best MSS. and two others of great value have ‘only-begotten God.’ The test of the value of a MS., or group of MSS., on any disputed point, is the extent to which it admits false readings on other points not disputed. Judged by this test the group of MSS. which read ‘only-begotten God’ is very strong; while the far larger group of MSS. which have ‘Son’ for ‘God’ is comparatively weak, for the same group of MSS. might be quoted in defence of a multitude of readings which no one would think of adopting. Again, the revised Syriac, which is among the minority of versions that support ‘God,’ is here of special weight, because it agrees with MSS. from which it usually differs. We conclude, therefore, that the very unusual expression ‘only-begotten God’ is the true reading, which has been changed to the usual ‘only-begotten Son,’ a change which in an old Greek MS. would involve the alteration of only a single letter. Both readings can be traced up to the second century, which again is evidence that the Gospel was written in the first century. Such differences take time to spread themselves widely.​
Vincent's Word Studies says:
Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.”​

The above is consistent with John 1:14 (KJV):

(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

Albert Barnes' Bble notes says:

In the bosom of the Father - This expression is taken from the custom among the Orientals of reclining at their meals. It denotes intimacy, friendship, affection. Here it means that Jesus had a knowledge of God such as one friend has of another - knowledge of his character, designs, and nature which no other one possesses, and which renders him, therefore, qualified above all others to make him known.​


Well then.... Give us your preferred translation of John 1:18, please.
 

keithr

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Well then.... Give us your preferred translation of John 1:18, please.
There are many translations which are acceptable - it's just the translation you quoted (whatever that was) that has inserted words that shouldn't be there, which I dislike. Translations that use Son rather than God, such as the KJV:

(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

seem perfectly acceptable to me, as it is consistent with other verses written by John, such as:

John 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​
1 John 4:9
(9) In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

and Jesus also referred to himself as the Son of God (such as in John 3:16-18, Revelation 2:18), Paul taught that Jesus was the Son of God (Acts 9:20), and even the devil and demons referred to him as the Son of God. Jesus was the only-begotten of God, and he was God's Son.
 

keithr

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The Trinity doctrine contradicts God's plan of redemption of mankind.​

Interesting.
Tell us more about that.
I'll have to decline discussing it further, as it is a policy of this forum to refrain from discussing the Trinity. All I can do is point you to posts that have not been deleted, such as the thread A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians (a closed long thread of 1,773 posts!), in which I wrote:

Believing Jesus is YHWH (and/or in a Trinity doctrine) nullifies the Gospel, because God cannot die, and if Jesus did not die then the redemption price has not been paid - that is not good news (gospel).​
Galations 1:3-5 (WEB):​
(3) Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,
(4) who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father—
(5) to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.​
 
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GeneZ

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There are many translations which are acceptable - it's just the translation you quoted (whatever that was) that has inserted words that shouldn't be there, which I dislike. Translations that use Son rather than God, such as the KJV:

(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

seem perfectly acceptable to me, as it is consistent with other verses written by John, such as:

John 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​
1 John 4:9
(9) In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

and Jesus also referred to himself as the Son of God (such as in John 3:16-18, Revelation 2:18), Paul taught that Jesus was the Son of God (Acts 9:20), and even the devil and demons referred to him as the Son of God. Jesus was the only-begotten of God, and he was God's Son.
He is the Son of God.
THE Son of God.

Could you know the Father if there were no Son?
 
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keithr

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He is the Son of God.
THE Son of God.

Could you know the Father if there were no Son?
Yes, it's certainly possible ("with God all things are possible" - Matthew 19:26). After all, "now are we the sons of God" (1 John 3:2). However, God chose that Jesus should have preeminence in all things (Colossians 1:18), and that initially we should come to know more about God through Jesus.
 

GeneZ

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Yes, it's certainly possible ("with God all things are possible" - Matthew 19:26).

So... with God its possible for Him to lie now?

Well? You just said so. All things are possible.

God lied to us when we read John 1:18?

Which says that the Son is the Father's means to make Himself knowable to us?
If He is not God? Then we are not knowing God. See the problem?

Interesting how that works when you begin to see why the Son has two natures in union.
One nature is to take what He intimately knows about God and lets us know in human terms what we are able to know.

Thank you Keithr, for your insight.

So? Is there anything that gets in your way that you want to say God lied about?
For you said, all things are possible with God. You said it yourself.

Don't abuse the Word of God!
 

keithr

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So... with God its possible for Him to lie now?

Well? You just said so. All things are possible.
No I personally didn't say that. I was quoting the words of Jesus, so it was Jesus who said that - Matthew 19:26 (WEB):

(26) Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Jesus was answering the disciples' question, "Who then can be saved?" (verse 25). Luke phrases it differently - Luke 18:27 (WEB):

(27) But he said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”​

So Jesus was probably being specific about the starting question of the passage in verse 16, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" While it may seem impossible for men to do anything to gain eternal life, God is able to provide for us so that we may have eternal life.

However, we are told elsewhere that it is against God's nature to lie:

Titus 1:2 (WEB):
(2) in hope of eternal life, which God, who can’t lie, promised before time began;​
Numbers 23:19 (WEB):
(19) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?​

God's perfect righteous and loving character, his morals, means that He chooses not to lie, just as we should also choose to not lie. However, He could say He was going to do one thing and then later change His mind:

Exodus 32:9-14 (WEB):
(9) Yahweh said to Moses, “I have seen these people, and behold, they are a stiff-necked people.​
(10) Now therefore leave me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of you a great nation.”​
(11) Moses begged Yahweh his God, and said, “Yahweh, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, that you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?​
(12) Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘He brought them out for evil, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the surface of the earth?’ Turn from your fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against your people.​
(13) Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of the sky, and all this land that I have spoken of I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’”​
(14) Yahweh repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.​

That's why God made a promise and swore an oath in His own name, to give us reassurance in our hope that He would not change His mind - Hebrews 6 (WEB):

(13) For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he could swear by no one greater, he swore by himself,​
(17) In this way God, being determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath;​
(18) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to take hold of the hope set before us.​

God lied to us when we read John 1:18?
(18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Which says that the Son is the Father's means to make Himself knowable to us?
That was not God declaring that - it was John!

If He is not God? Then we are not knowing God. See the problem?
No, I don't. Jesus said he had seen God and knew God:

John 6:38 (WEB):
(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.​
John 6:46 (WEB):
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.​

John 8:54-55 (WEB):
(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.​
(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.​

Jesus knew his Father intimately, and his character is very much like his Father's. Jesus revealed again God's name (the religious leaders had forbidden anyone to use God's name, which was not God's will) and taught his disciples about God:

Joh 17:25-26 (WEB):
(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​
(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

John 14:7 (WEB):
(7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen [discerned, perceived] him.”​

Interesting how that works when you begin to see why the Son has two natures in union.
He doesn't have two natures. He has had a change of nature - twice - but he has only ever had one nature at a time. It's unreasonable, absurd even, to think that any living being could have two natures at the same time. Could you exist as a dog and a tree at the same time? How could that possibly work!

One nature is to take what He intimately knows about God and lets us know in human terms what we are able to know.
Sharing knowledge is not a nature. That's nonsense!

Thank you Keithr, for your insight.
It's my pleasure to try and help others better understand the truth of God's Scriptures. :)
 

GeneZ

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No I personally didn't say that. I was quoting the words of Jesus, so it was Jesus who said that - Matthew 19:26 (WEB):

(26) Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Jesus was answering the disciples' question, "Who then can be saved?" (verse 25). Luke phrases it differently - Luke 18:27 (WEB):

(27) But he said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”​

So Jesus was probably being specific about the starting question of the passage in verse 16, "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" While it may seem impossible for men to do anything to gain eternal life, God is able to provide for us so that we may have eternal life.

However, we are told elsewhere that it is against God's nature to lie:

Titus 1:2 (WEB):
(2) in hope of eternal life, which God, who can’t lie, promised before time began;​
Numbers 23:19 (WEB):
(19) God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?​

God's perfect righteous and loving character, his morals, means that He chooses not to lie, just as we should also choose to not lie. However, He could say He was going to do one thing and then later change His mind:

Exodus 32:9-14 (WEB):
(9) Yahweh said to Moses, “I have seen these people, and behold, they are a stiff-necked people.​
(10) Now therefore leave me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of you a great nation.”​
(11) Moses begged Yahweh his God, and said, “Yahweh, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, that you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?​
(12) Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘He brought them out for evil, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the surface of the earth?’ Turn from your fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against your people.​
(13) Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of the sky, and all this land that I have spoken of I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’”​
(14) Yahweh repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.​

That's why God made a promise and swore an oath in His own name, to give us reassurance in our hope that He would not change His mind - Hebrews 6 (WEB):

(13) For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he could swear by no one greater, he swore by himself,​
(17) In this way God, being determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed with an oath;​
(18) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to take hold of the hope set before us.​


(18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.


That was not God declaring that - it was John!


No, I don't. Jesus said he had seen God and knew God:

John 6:38 (WEB):
(38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.​
John 6:46 (WEB):
(46) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father.​

John 8:54-55 (WEB):
(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.​
(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.​

Jesus knew his Father intimately, and his character is very much like his Father's. Jesus revealed again God's name (the religious leaders had forbidden anyone to use God's name, which was not God's will) and taught his disciples about God:

Joh 17:25-26 (WEB):
(25) Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me.​
(26) I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”​

John 14:7 (WEB):
(7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen [discerned, perceived] him.”​


He doesn't have two natures. He has had a change of nature - twice - but he has only ever had one nature at a time. It's unreasonable, absurd even, to think that any living being could have two natures at the same time. Could you exist as a dog and a tree at the same time? How could that possibly work!


Sharing knowledge is not a nature. That's nonsense!


It's my pleasure to try and help others better understand the truth of God's Scriptures. :)

Why do you study the Bible? What is your motivation to do so?
To teach others to better understand the Truth of God's Scripture requires that you be filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit will not distort like you have been doing terribly.

So you are here to teach us your version of what you constitute as truth....
 
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keithr

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The Spirit will not distort like you have been doing terribly.

So you are here to teach us your version of what you constitute as truth....
I quoted (included) 19 verses of the Bible in my last post - that was more lines of Scripture than lines which I wrote. I try to reveal the truth from God's written word to us by quoting that written word, unlike many on this forum who just say what they think with very little, or no, support from the Bible. As regarding distorting the truth, I quoted some words of Jesus and you then twisted and distorted that to accuse me of saying that God can lie, then you distorted John 1:18 to claim that Jesus can't declare to us what God is like unless Jesus is God. Can't you see the distorting of God's word that you've done?

Matthew 7:3 (WEB):
(3) Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?​
 
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Grailhunter

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Isn't it interesting that Jesus understood His own EQUALITY with God... yet, some people who claim to be Christian, do not agree.

Here is a better translation of the verse, as the one St SteVen is using is obscure.

"""Jesus, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

I am going to the Father....One? He would already be there......
The Father is greater than I...

There are about a hundred verses that prove there are 3 Gods....Trinity....tri-unity not tri-une.
Besides one God having three aspects is a Pagan concept....Pagan mythology.
 

Grailhunter

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The doctrine of the Trinity is a lie?
What is the motive for that "crime"? Seems like an acceptable doctrine to believe or not believe.
This forum actually has a policy against anti-Trinitarian posts. I wonder why?
Probably violates the Nicene Creed. I'm fine with it being discussed.
But I'm not fine with the Trinity doctrine being called a lie.

It is a long held belief that started with the Catholics during the ecumenical councils to shutdown the arguments.

I am surprised the Protestants have warmed up to it because so many scriptural examples show three Gods and one God having three aspects is a Pagan concept. The construct of the unity of the Gods is really the discussion ....God set the designations so we could understand....Father and Son, a Son that He loves.....not self love....the Father is greater than I....and the Father "gave" His Son to save us and the Son ascended to the Father.

The Truth can be shocking.....but the Truth is always better. There are around a hundred scriptures that prove there are 3 Gods in some sort of unison.....a unison that we might not be able to understand, but the Truth is the scriptures are there for all to see....no secret....better to look at it as a Godhead.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
 
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GeneZ

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I quoted (included) 19 verses of the Bible in my last post - that was more lines of Scripture than lines which I wrote. I try to reveal the truth from God's written word to us by quoting that written word, unlike many on this forum who just say what they think with very little, or no, support from the Bible. As regarding distorting the truth, I quoted some words of Jesus and you then twisted and distorted that to accuse me of saying that God can lie, then you distorted John 1:18 to claim that Jesus can't declare to us what God is like unless Jesus is God. Can't you see the distorting of God's word that you've done?

Matthew 7:3 (WEB):
(3) Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?​
19 verses? Which only proves you know how to locate passages with keywords.
But, that was a lot of verses to admit you do not understand in their application.

Then you turn around and prove you still can not comprehend John 1:18... and that's only one verse.

How come others do get it?

John 1:18 says in the Greek even more so. That Jesus exegetes the Father to us.

No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.

How can one explain what one does not know?


Jesus is all the God the Father we can ever know. Being made known by interpreting God to us in human terms because He is both human and God.

So?

If He is not God?

You do not know God.

To us, He is the God we can know!

..............
 

Behold

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You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Jesus is the God-Man.

So, when God the Word, became the Virgin born Son, He left his position as this... "Let us make man in OUR image" and God became a man. Jesus the 2nd Adam.

He left the Spiritual and became Human form. Jesus said..>"i am from ABOVE, and you are from below".

This is God wrapping Himself in human flesh.

So, as man is a lower then Heaven, as Flesh is less the Spirit.... Then the context is Jesus the Man, who is "God manifested in the Flesh".

Christ is not saying that He is not God, He only stating that as the 2nd Adam, that this incarnation, is different then being "the Word was God", in John 1.

John 1:10 and Colossians 1:16, say that Jesus is the Creator, and that is God.
 
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