Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

[St. SteVen]

I couldn't help noticing the anti-trinitarian part - that Jesus has a God and Father, just like us.

Romans 15:5-6 (WEB):

(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,​

(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

That's an interesting point, but I don't think Jesus acknowledgement of Father God is anti-trinitarian.

John 8:28 NIV
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he
and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

 

[keithr]

That's an interesting point, but I don't think Jesus acknowledgement of Father God is anti-trinitarian.

John 8:28 NIV
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he
and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Yet another anti-trinitarian verse (there are lots of them!). Jesus claims to be the Son of Man, the Messiah, and that he has been taught by God. Three equal parts/persons who are all God implies that none of them need teaching anything!

 

[St. SteVen]

Yet another anti-trinitarian verse (there are lots of them!). Jesus claims to be the Son of Man, the Messiah, and that he has been taught by God. Three equal parts/persons who are all God implies that none of them need teaching anything!

It's a complicated subject.
Does Jesus expect us to do miracles? (yes)
Did he do miracles in his deity, or in his humanity? (humanity)

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

 

[keithr]

It's a complicated subject.

It's best to not side-track this tread into discussing the Trinity - lots of Trinity believers get upset by it and react in a non-Christian way, to such an extent that the administrators of the forum have banned its discussion. (I disagree with that; they should just discipline those who don't discuss the subject in a civilised way, such as imposing temporary posting bans, not ban free speech on a very important subject.)

But to address the points and verses that you quoted:

Does Jesus expect us to do miracles? (yes)
Did he do miracles in his deity, or in his humanity? (humanity)

No humans (including you, me and Jesus while he was human) can perform miracles. God performed the miracles. Hence Jesus said:

John 11:41 (WEB):

(41) So they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, “Father, I thank you that you listened to me.​

John 5:30 (WEB):

(30) I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.​

John 5:19 (WEB):

(19) Jesus therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.​

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Paul was talking about humilty:

Philippians 2:3-4 (WEB):

(3) doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself;​

(4) each of you not just looking to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others.​

and gives the example of Jesus, who, before his change of nature to become human, was a mighty spirit being, similar to God, yet he did NOT consider equailty with God as something he should try to attain (unlike Satan, who wanted to be like God, and grasped his opportunity):

Philippians 2:6-9 (WEB):

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

(9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;​

God does not exalt Himself! He exalts His only begotten Son (there's no Trinity there, just God and His Son). Jesus never claimed to be God; he only claimed to be God's son and the Messiah (anointed by God), e.g.:

John 5:25 (WEB):

(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.​

That's why Jesus was crucified, because he claimed to be the Son of God and the Messiah:

John 19:6-7 (WEB):

(6) When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they shouted, saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and crucify him, for I find no basis for a charge against him.”​

(7) The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”​

After his conversion, that is what Paul taught:

Acts 9:20 (WEB):

(20) Immediately in the synagogues he proclaimed the Christ, that he is the Son of God.​

 

[St. SteVen]

No humans (including you, me and Jesus while he was human) can perform miracles. God performed the miracles.

Yes, of course.
But Jesus asked about which of his good works (miracles) that the Pharisees were wanting to stone him for.
Thus taking ownership of the miracle-working, as a conduit for God's power, of course.
And I have seen at least one healing miracle of God working through me.
Have you never interceded for anyone needing a miracle?

 

[keithr]

And I have seen at least one healing miracle of God working through me.
Have you never interceded for anyone needing a miracle?

I may have done, but nobody has yet been healed due to my prayers (that I know of!). I was healed of a back problem at an evengelist's meeting. He prayed to God for healing in Jesus' name for all those who wanted a healing touch from God. I was healed, but the evangelist didn't know about it. Some people were watching on closed-circuit TV in another room because the place was packed, and the evangelist couldn't have known about anybody healed in that room either. The healing was done by God, Jesus or an angel working under orders - I can't know for sure, other than knowing it was supernatural, and the prayer was made to God, asking in Jesus' name.

 

[GeneZ]

I couldn't help noticing the anti-trinitarian part - that Jesus has a God and Father, just like us.

Romans 15:5-6 (WEB):

(5) Now the God of perseverance and of encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,​

(6) that with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

His humanity (our contact point with God) will always have the Father as His God.
For, when we are one with Jesus OUR GOD is always the Father.

So? To contact Jesus, is to be contacting God through Jesus.
Its God's way of making Himself knowable to us.
The Father is our God through Christ.

If Jesus could be eliminated somehow?
There would be no Bible (Word of God).
There would be no ability to be knowing God.

In other words? Because there is the Son of God? We can know God through Him.
For His humanity has been granted to contain knowing all of God that a man could ever know about God.
To be known to us by means of His humanity interpreting God for us into human terms and realities that we relate to.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..
Colossians 2:9​

The Greek word assigned to Jesus concerning making the Father known to us is the same Greek
word used for commanding pastors to exgete the Word of God for the believers.
In other words, Jesus is our interpreter and translator of the Father for us into our human perspective.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in
closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
(has interpreted God for us).
John 1:18​

grace and peace ....

 

[St. SteVen]

I may have done, but nobody has yet been healed due to my prayers (that I know of!). I was healed of a back problem at an evengelist's meeting. He prayed to God for healing in Jesus' name for all those who wanted a healing touch from God. I was healed, but the evangelist didn't know about it. Some people were watching on closed-circuit TV in another room because the place was packed, and the evangelist couldn't have known about anybody healed in that room either. The healing was done by God, Jesus or an angel working under orders - I can't know for sure, other than knowing it was supernatural, and the prayer was made to God, asking in Jesus' name.

I'm not claiming that God does not heal today.

 

[keithr]

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in
closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
(has interpreted God for us).
John 1:18​

You didn't specify which translation of the Bible you were quoting from, but that is a poor translation, translated with a Trinity bias - it's deceiving people into beleiving a lie. The verse should be translated something like:

John 1:18 (WEB):

(18) No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.​

or (Literal Standard Version):

(18) No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God who is on the bosom of the Father—He has expounded [Him].​

It should definitely not say "who is himself God"!

The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

the only begotten Son] The question of reading here is very interesting. Most MSS. and versions have ‘the only-begotten Son’ or ‘only-begotten Son.’ But the three oldest and best MSS. and two others of great value have ‘only-begotten God.’ The test of the value of a MS., or group of MSS., on any disputed point, is the extent to which it admits false readings on other points not disputed. Judged by this test the group of MSS. which read ‘only-begotten God’ is very strong; while the far larger group of MSS. which have ‘Son’ for ‘God’ is comparatively weak, for the same group of MSS. might be quoted in defence of a multitude of readings which no one would think of adopting. Again, the revised Syriac, which is among the minority of versions that support ‘God,’ is here of special weight, because it agrees with MSS. from which it usually differs. We conclude, therefore, that the very unusual expression ‘only-begotten God’ is the true reading, which has been changed to the usual ‘only-begotten Son,’ a change which in an old Greek MS. would involve the alteration of only a single letter. Both readings can be traced up to the second century, which again is evidence that the Gospel was written in the first century. Such differences take time to spread themselves widely.​

​

Vincent's Word Studies says:

​

Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενὴς Θεὸς, “God only begotten.”​

The above is consistent with John 1:14 (KJV):

(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

Albert Barnes' Bble notes says:

In the bosom of the Father - This expression is taken from the custom among the Orientals of reclining at their meals. It denotes intimacy, friendship, affection. Here it means that Jesus had a knowledge of God such as one friend has of another - knowledge of his character, designs, and nature which no other one possesses, and which renders him, therefore, qualified above all others to make him known.​

 

[St. SteVen]

... that is a poor translation, translated with a Trinity bias - it's deceiving people into beleiving a lie. ...

The doctrine of the Trinity is a lie?
What is the motive for that "crime"? Seems like an acceptable doctrine to believe or not believe.
This forum actually has a policy against anti-Trinitarian posts. I wonder why?
Probably violates the Nicene Creed. I'm fine with it being discussed.
But I'm not fine with the Trinity doctrine being called a lie.

 

[keithr]

The doctrine of the Trinity is a lie?

The lie I was referring to was that the insertion of "who is himself God" is an incorrect translation, an addition/insertion to the original text, giving a meaning that is not there in the original text.

What is the motive for that "crime"? Seems like an acceptable doctrine to believe or not believe.

As I said, I suspect it was translated with a Trinity bias. How can you not believe a doctrine if it is acceptable? :

This forum actually has a policy against anti-Trinitarian posts. I wonder why?

Read the sticky thread "Christianity Board Forum Rules. All Members Please Read Before Engaging In Threads". It's a misleading subject line because it is only about the one "new policy" (not rule) introduced in November 2022. It says:

we would like to bring to your attention, certain recurring topics, that have caused much division and strife here over the years.​

​

These topics have tended to cause heated debate, strife and division between members and/or inappropriate behavior within those discussions, which simply will not be tolerated here at CyB​

​

We are not disputing the fact that these topics are important however, they also tend to bring out the worse in members. To a point where such behavior is unacceptable in a Christian forum​

​

At the moment, we only have issue with one particular topic, which is "The Trinity".​

​

This topic may not be initiated, discussed or debated at Christianity Board, whether it be for or against the Trinitarian view. Included in this is the side mantra of "Jesus is not God" Such posts/threads will be deleted immediately and disciplinary action will be taken in the form of warning points and/or bans depending on the outcome. Old threads will also be removed from public view as well as new ones.​

So, to quote from Mission Impossible, these posts may self-destruct in 5 seconds! ;)

 

[Behold]

did not consider equality with God

Isn't it interesting that Jesus understood His own EQUALITY with God... yet, some people who claim to be Christian, do not agree.

Here is a better translation of the verse, as the one St SteVen is using is obscure.

"""Jesus, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

 

[keithr]

Isn't it interesting that Jesus understood His own EQUALITY with God... yet, some people who claim to be Christian, do not agree.

Here is a better translation of the verse, as the one St SteVen is using is obscure.

"""Jesus, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

It's more interesting to realise that if Jesus did consider equality with God, then that means that Jesus was not God. Likewise, being equal with somebody else does not mean that you are that somebody else, just that you are very similar. A more precise translation, for example, is the ESV:

(6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

 

[Behold]

It's more interesting to realise that if Jesus did consider equality with God, then that means that Jesus was not God.

The God man, recognizing His equality with God The Father


This is not the same as "all men are created equal".

Its something much more divine.

 

[St. SteVen]

How can you not believe a doctrine if it is acceptable? :

Well, acceptable to whom?
There are doctrines with optional positions. Even contradictory doctrines.
Doctrines are man-made anyway.

 

[keithr]

The God man, recognizing His equality with God The Father


This is not the same as "all men are created equal".

Its something much more divine.

The passage is talking about how while Jesus was in the form of God, he did not consider grasping equality with God. God later changed Jesus' nature to be human, so that he was then no longer "existing in the form of God" (verse 6) but instead he existed "in human form" (verse 8) and "being made in the likeness of men" (verse 7). Jesus most certainly did not consider grasping equality with God as a possibility while he was a man, while he had taken "the form of a servant" (verse 7). There is no such thing as a/the "God man" in the Bible.

 

[Behold]

Doctrines are man-made anyway.

Paul's isn't.

1 Timothy 4:13

He's talking about HIS., and it came from "above".

 

[Behold]

There is no such thing as a/the "God man" in the Bible.

Jesus said to them...

"I AM..... from Above and YOU are.... from Below".

He said this, while as a man talking to people.

Notice the 'I AM"....

That is what God said to Moses when Moses said..."what is your name".

This is the same that Jesus the "man" said to the Pharisees, ...

"Before Moses was..... I AM">

And who is the "Great I AM"?

Its the "Alpha and Omega".

Its Jesus.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus most certainly did not consider grasping equality with God as a possibility while he was a man...

Not a possibility?

Philippians 2:6-7 NIV
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

 

[keithr]

Well, acceptable to whom?

Why are you asking me? It was you who said that you thought the Trinity doctrine seemed "like an acceptable doctrine to believe or not believe". If you regard a doctrine as acceptable then you will probably believe it. If you think a doctine is unaccepatble then you surely will not believe it!

There are doctrines with optional positions. Even contradictory doctrines.
Doctrines are man-made anyway.

I can't think of any true doctrine (from God) that is presented as optional. Nor contradictory doctrine (except false doctrine, of course, such as eternal torture rather than a second death). The Trinity doctrine contradicts God's plan of redemption of mankind.

Jesus said, quoting Isaiah, in Matthew 15:9 (WEB):

(9) And in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.’”​

Albert Barnes Notes says:

Teaching for doctrines ... - The word “doctrines,” here, means the requirements of religion - things to be believed and practiced in religion.​

​

God only has a right to declare what shall be done in his service; but they held their traditions to be superior to the written word of God, and taught them as doctrines binding the conscience.​