Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

[St. SteVen]

Did Jesus believe everything he read in the Bible? Did he believe that God created a man from dust and then a woman as his mate (Matt. 19:4-6)? Did Jesus believe that the Biblical Deluge was a historical fact (Matt. 24:37-39)? Did Jesus believe that Moses led the Israelites through the desert for 40 years after they left Egypt (John 3:14,15)?

Either that, or he used the oral traditions and mythology of the Israelites to communicate on a common level.
Science and Archaeology don't support a literal view of creation, the Flood, or the Exodus.

Or if you prefer to stick with the Bible...
What about the contradictions between I+II Kings and I+II Chronicles.

False Christians abound, and the weak ones who let themselves be led by the false ones are even more.

What to do, what to do... ???

 

[St. SteVen]

The Hebrew text, Tanakh, was not canonized during Jesus time here.

Not canonized? That's interesting. ???
What were the Scribes scribing? - LOL

 

[MatthewG]

The Hebrew text, Tanakh, was not canonized during Jesus time here.

Sure it was.

They had all the books from Genesis to Malachi.

“So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4‬:‭16‬-‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Luke 4:16-21 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And | New King James Version (NKJV) | Do

So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And

bible.com

Jesus taught his chosen disciples out of these books, and share with them many truths, so much so … that is proclaimed.

John 21:25 New Living Translation (NLT)Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

 

[GeneZ]

Either that, or he used the oral traditions and mythology of the Israelites to communicate on a common level.
Science and Archaeology don't support a literal view of creation, the Flood, or the Exodus.

Or if you prefer to stick with the Bible...
What about the contradictions between I+II Kings and I+II Chronicles.


What to do, what to do... ???

God searches the mind and emotions of men. (Jeremiah 17:10)
Those whom He finds having a right attitude He will lead them to the Truth they need, while others He will not bother with due to their own mental attitude.

Truth is being offered today. God would not be God if it were not. One must be led to it by God.

" As the Scriptures say, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” James 4:6

 

[BlessedPeace]

Not canonized? That's interesting. ???
What were the Scribes scribing? - LOL

Development of the Old Testament canon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BlessedPeace]

Yet all that it was to contain was in writing........
They did not know it needed to be canonized until when their prophets they realized were no more to be found.

Possibly so.

Don't forget the books that were removed from the Tanakh.

 

[St. SteVen]

Truth is being offered today. God would not be God if it were not. One must be led to it by God.

Good post, I agree.
I suppose the important thing is determining a reliable source.

Can we trust a religion? Or a denomination? Catholicism, or Protestantism?
Or a religious leader? Or a preacher? Or a priest? Or a Bible translation?

My best advice.
Eat the meat and spit out the bones.
This requires discernment.
Which is more important than the source.

God could speak to us from the back of a cereal box.
If we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

 

[MatthewG]

Good post, I agree.
I suppose the important thing is determining a reliable source.

Can we trust a religion? Or a denomination? Catholicism, or Protestantism?
Or a religious leader? Or a preacher? Or a priest? Or a Bible translation?

My best advice.
Eat the meat and spit out the bones.
This requires discernment.
Which is more important than the source.

God could speak to us from the back of a cereal box.
If we have ears to hear and eyes to see.

For me it was someone telling me about Jesus that sparked my curiousity. I wasnt worried about translations issues and bickering over things. It was simply someone taking time out of there day to talk to someone they barely know about Jesus… and then they handed me a bible to use and didnt suggest anything else. He just loved me unconditionally and simply supported me to learn and encouraged it by doing what he did. He told me he enjoyed reading the bible and he was a fast reader; he always was a silly old goober. Loved Carl he was really nice to me and i became really mean to him, slowly as i continued to read the bible.

Eventually a teacher came and helped me see, what is true by going chapter by chapter and verse by verse and suggesting never to believe him but go and look and chekc dor yourself.

That had a great effect on my life as i continued to follow after Christ even in my heart while using drugs and everything else; God contiuned to work with me and it all started because someone started talking to me about Jesus which sparked my curiousity, and now have continued to believe and have faith for 7 years with only one time having the thought “is this really worth it?”


I learned now about translations and wording issues but you can buy greek and hebrew dictionaries to help one out, study bibles are useful but you dotn have to believe everything written in the comment section as truth you can compare notes.

The overall aspect is how has your heart changed since meeting the Lord? And have you continued to follow and believe? Praying and being honest with God about who you are and what you do or dont do?

 

[MatthewG]

For me it was someone telling me about Jesus that sparked my curiousity. I wasnt worried about translations issues and bickering over things. It was simply someone taking time out of there day to talk to someone they barely know about Jesus… and then they handed me a bible to use and didnt suggest anything else. He just loved me unconditionally and simply supported me to learn and encouraged it by doing what he did. He told me he enjoyed reading the bible and he was a fast reader; he always was a silly old goober. Loved Carl he was really nice to me and i became really mean to him, slowly as i continued to read the bible.

Eventually a teacher came and helped me see, what is true by going chapter by chapter and verse by verse and suggesting never to believe him but go and look and chekc dor yourself.

That had a great effect on my life as i continued to follow after Christ even in my heart while using drugs and everything else; God contiuned to work with me and it all started because someone started talking to me about Jesus which sparked my curiousity, and now have continued to believe and have faith for 7 years with only one time having the thought “is this really worth it?”


I learned now about translations and wording issues but you can buy greek and hebrew dictionaries to help one out, study bibles are useful but you dotn have to believe everything written in the comment section as truth you can compare notes.

The overall aspect is how has your heart changed since meeting the Lord? And have you continued to follow and believe? Praying and being honest with God about who you are and what you do or dont do?

STarting out as a child, I did bicker and fight... that was why I started being mean to carl, but we still reconciled through our issues which were mainly me, judging not only him, but also everyone else around me because when going through the Gospels alone you start thinking to yourself that Jesus is talking to you, and you forget the narrative once you go through very quickly the first time around. That is why it is important to learn, slowly and make notes and realize what is being said, because so much of it has to do with the Jewish people and their history you can get lost if you are not careful and a lot of things though they are said to them: are not meant for us though there may be some type of information to glean from spiritually.

I use to see myself higher than others, saying "they dont pray like me, they dont read the bible like me." I was my own pharisee, and did not realize it until the truth came and I was set free, by the Lord Yeshua! From the bondage that I was in not to say that I don't still struggle and have troubles.

:) God is good, and is love and is awesome, mighty, a refuge, a solid fortress.

Moses wrote, saying

Deuteronomy 10:17 New Living Translation (NLT)“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.

 

[ElieG12]

Either that, or he used the oral traditions and mythology of the Israelites to communicate on a common level.
Science and Archaeology don't support a literal view of creation, the Flood, or the Exodus.

Or if you prefer to stick with the Bible...
What about the contradictions between I+II Kings and I+II Chronicles.


What to do, what to do... ???

We know that Jesus absolutely believed everything the Bible said was true (Read the quotes I included before).

John 17:17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Do you think Jesus would have said to anyone "The Bible contradicts itself"?

John 10:35 (...) the scripture cannot be nullified (...)

Those men of whom you speak have deceived you too.

 

[GeneZ]

Either that, or he used the oral traditions and mythology of the Israelites to communicate on a common level.
Science and Archaeology don't support a literal view of creation, the Flood, or the Exodus.

Where are you getting that from?

 

[St. SteVen]

We know that Jesus absolutely believed everything the Bible said was true (Read the quotes I included before). ...

Do you think Jesus would have said to anyone "The Bible contradicts itself"? ...

The Bible was not canonized until the 4th century.
Do you have any idea where the Bible came from?
Which method of Textual Criticism do you prefer?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

 

[ElieG12]

The Hebrew Scriptures, known as Old Testament were finished 4 centuries before Jesus. He and his disciples quoted profusely of them. They are the same we can read and study today. They were even translated to Greek already.

 

[MatthewG]

The Hebrew Scriptures, known as Old Testament were finished 4 centuries before Jesus. He and his disciples quoted profusely of them. They are the same we can read and study today. They were even translated to Greek already.

Yes, ElieG12, I agree. It's awesome that they also found the Dead Sea Scrolls to help in the authentic overlay of what we have today, and it seems all the New Testament was written perhaps mainly in Greek, but perhaps some of it could have been written to Hebrew too. Thinking about on the sign over Jesus's head, it was Latin, Hebrew and Greek. I tend to believe all the letters, and gospels were completed before 70Ad, (personally.)

 

[ElieG12]

The canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was traditionally divided into three sections: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, or Hagiographa, contained in 24 books (...). By further combining Ruth with Judges, and Lamentations with Jeremiah, some Jewish authorities counted 22, the same as the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. In his prologue to the books of Samuel and Kings, Jerome, though seeming to favor counting 22, said: “Some would include both Ruth and Lamentations among the Hagiographa . . . and thus would get twenty-four books.”
(...)
The exact number of books in the Hebrew Scriptures is not important (whether a certain two are combined or left separated), nor is the particular order in which they follow one another, since the books remained as separate rolls long after the canon was closed. Ancient catalogs vary in the order the books are listed, as, for example, one listing places Isaiah after the book of Ezekiel. What is most important, however, is what books are included. In reality, only those books now in the canon have any solid claim for canonicity. From ancient times efforts to include other writings have been resisted. Two Jewish councils held at Yavne or Jamnia, a little S of Joppa, about 90 and 118 C.E. respectively, when discussing the Hebrew Scriptures, expressly excluded all Apocryphal writings.
(...)
If there was not a definite collection of Holy Writings known and recognized by them and those to whom they spoke and wrote, they would not have used such expressions as “the Scriptures” (Mt 22:29; Ac 18:24); “the holy Scriptures” (Ro 1:2); “the holy writings” (2Ti 3:15); the “Law,” often meaning the whole body of Scripture (Joh 10:34; 12:34; 15:25); “the Law and the Prophets,” used as a generic term meaning the entire Hebrew Scriptures and not simply the first and second sections of those Scriptures (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16). When Paul referred to “the Law,” he quoted from Isaiah.—1Co 14:21; Isa 28:11.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000880

 

[GeneZ]

The Bible was not canonized until the 4th century.
Do you have any idea where the Bible came from?
Which method of Textual Criticism do you prefer?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

Quote:

The practice of Textual Criticism is not “criticizing the Bible“, it’s trying to recover the Bible’s original text. A “textual critic” is not someone who criticizes the Bible, but someone who tries their best to reconstruct the original text."


.........

 

[Grailhunter]

From posts 271 and 272

Some profound quotes here and some have an entertainment value.....

Some geniuses have to take medication so that they can talk to regular people. Some of these posts are the reason they have to do that.

You do not have to be stupid to be a spiritually gifted Christian…..
You do not have to be stupid to understand the scriptures…..
You do not have to be stupid for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you...

You do not have to be uneducated to be a spiritually gifted Christian…
You do not have to be uneducated to understand the scriptures…..
You do not have to be uneducated for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you...

You do not have to be educated to be a spiritually gifted Christian…
You do not have to be educated to understand the scriptures…..
You do not have to be educated for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you...

You do not have to be a genius be a spiritually gifted Christian…
You do not have to be a genius to understand the scriptures…..
You do not have to be a genius for the Holy Spirit to enlighten you...

Education and intelligence are not anti-Christian and believe it or not no one is more knowledgeable than God…..He does not subscribe to the stupid thing is better and more spiritual….either.

When people talk negatively about education it is because they are jealous and or intimidated by the educated. When the educated talk down to others it is because they need to learn more…

When the Bible talks down to the wisdom of man it is talking about the Greek schools of education and philosophy, not Christian schools….there were none. Remember Proverbs 4:1-13

The problem with the gentlemen at the beginning of the OP is that they did not finish their education or were not smart enough to grasp what was taught…..maybe they went to Berkeley….?

Functionally it is kind of like understanding the Gospels is one thing and biblical scholarship and theology is another…..Functionally I say, because we do not know how many millions of Christians were saved before the first Bible was hand written in the 4th century. Hand written for the Church, not the public. Christians did not get Bibles in their hands until 16th century and it is not like it happened overnight.

Science….the invention of the Gutenberg Press that made mass production of the Bible possible. Possible because there are some historical notes here….But in short it was the Protestant reform that made mass production and distribution possible in the 16th century even though the Gutenberg Press was invented in the 15th century.

So the point is that they did not need a Bible to be saved. Some of the early Christians may have been saved and lived their whole lives without reading anything about Christianity….a lot received their understanding by word of mouth. So scholarship is not a requirement to be saved, so studying the scriptures is not a requirement to be saved. They had none to hold in their hands to study.

So today we have Bibles to study but some limit their understanding by only reading the Bible. If we lived back then and had Bibles we would be reading them in the context that they were written in. But today we are reading scriptures that were written in the 1st century….reading words out of context so to speak. If we were transported back to the 1st century it would seem like an alien world to us. And I will add a alien world where Christians risked their lives to assemble and learn and worship the Lord…. where as today we have Bibles….but in a lot of cases you have to beat Christians with a stick to get them to go to church.

So then the Protestants got a hold of the Bible and started reading and forming beliefs….out of context. Of course they did not agree on the meaning because there was not enough background information to form an educated belief and so the church started to fracture, independent denominations began to form and so today we have thousands of denominations. Mainly because in the 16th century they knew so little of the language, time period, culture, and circumstances that the scriptures were written in.

This is where education comes in. I worship with a lot of Christian denominations….not expecting any of them to be even near perfect because they actually limit their own understanding. But that is OK because love of God comes first.

I have spent my whole life being formally educated in one form or another in 5 countries…..and in the end it is kinda like that joke where the guy was looking for the bottom line to wisdom and the answer was….There is no free lunch. Vast amounts of education will teach you the details of the Bible and Christianity as a whole. More so than very few Christians understand. That is a good thing and it is worth it….BUT….it does not make you more saved than the Christians that heard Acts 2:38 and believed.

An educated Christian may know better how to apply Christianity to their lives….maybe. This is where I could get into females and Christianity because they seem to grasp the heart and spirit of Christ better than males without memorizing the scriptures.... But that is another topic…. I love Christians…. uneducated and educated and I try to have a sense of humor when I hear some of them say the educated do not understand Christianity or are too carnal. As long as they try to be moral and love God, I will stand and worship the Lord with them.

One of the good things that education will do for you besides a higher understanding of Christianity as a whole….is that you will not fall for the klondike beliefs and cults that are out there. Beware of those that are telling you about a “the secret ingredient.” Usually a word game where they try to change the meaning of words. LOL I will tell you very few people understand the biblical languages because of how they have morphed through the centuries. I have met very few people that can read and write the biblical languages…not counting the Professors at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and that is pertaining to Hebrew.

Do I recommend a life of pursuing Christian scholarship? That is up to you, but I can tell you the bottom line is easier and shorter. You can read a good Bible like the NASB and others and get what you need of the bottom line. Love God…love another….have faith and Acts 2:38…and be good and do good. That is the bottom line.

 

[gpresdo]

Yes, I think oftentimes atheism is an overreaction to a "Fundamentalist or Evangelical background".
I consider myself a recovering evangelical. I'm reevaluating the things I was taught in my religious upbringing.

That is a practice that I have questioned as well. But in the final (further) analysis I concluded that the means is
less important than the outcome. (the end) God actually spoke to me, at the young age of eight years old, and encouraged
me to repeat that set of words as a starting point. And for decades I believed that was the only way. No more.

I'll post my testimony if you want to read it. Thanks.

A un-repented person can follow word assimilation for repentance from a mentor...but, then present them to God;...i.e.....Father I xxxxxxx in Jesus' name...... Amen.
The mentor cannot say words to God for the person repenting.....yes he can pray for the repentor........ neither can the repentor say words to the mentor for repentance.

 

[St. SteVen]

A un-repented person can follow word assimilation for repentance from a mentor...but, then present them to God;...i.e.....Father I xxxxxxx in Jesus' name...... Amen.
The mentor cannot say words to God for the person repenting.....yes he can pray for the repentor........ neither can the repentor say words to the mentor for repentance.

While that is somewhat true, what is the role of the Priest?
Does not a Priest represent others to God?

Revelation 1:5-6 NIV
... To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—
to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[St. SteVen]

Where are you getting that from?

The Bible Scholars.
That's what this topic is about.

I suppose the question is:
Can you remain a Christian if you relegate the Old Testament to religious mythology?
In some cases, yes; in other cases, no.

Do you know any Christians that believe in Theistic Evolution?