We are judged by works, not by faith

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dad

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The same as He deals with all willful sinners. The Father is not a respecter of person in judging our works.
He is very much a respecter of persons as regards wolves and sheep. He is not a respecter of persons as to who can be saved if they come to Him. He also does not reward all wolves the same. Hell, so to speak has many levels. Heaven also. Some have rewards more than others.

Which are them keeping His commandments and doing His will from the heart.
We all do the best we can. Peter blew it, Barnabas and Paul argued. Some of the churches in Revelation are commended but He has some things against them also. By your standards they are all 'rags'
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
That verse in Rev 14 was regarding the mark of the beast. Those that take it face the wrath of God. In this is the patience of believers because we refuse it. Context. You thought it meant that believers lose salvation?
Pharisee Christians keep His commandments by will power alone, which you are not at all guilty of.
That makes no sense, but I would hope I am not guilty of whatever it was.
Sinful Christians such as yourself, by your own testimony, do not always keep His commandments, and so you trust in your own faith alone to save you while sinning against God.
It is self righteous to pretend you don't sin and point at other believers who are honest.
Exactly. Those Christians such as yourself that say you are saved by your own faith alone, including while you are sinning.
I never said I am saved by my faith. It is by Jesus. Being saved by faith means that we have faith in Jesus. Not some workadoodle faith of our own.

It's the Christian doctrine of no more being condemned while sinning. You believe and teach your faith covers you from righteous judgment of God, in those times you are sinning again.
No, if believers/sons blow it He chastises them. That is anything but being 'condemned'. Being saved (having faith as you put it) means we are spared from wrath. Whatever judgments/corrections we get are for our GOOD!
It is you the Christian sinner.
The only Christians there are were sinners and still trespass. You are an example of that. Being dishonest about sometimes trespassing is a sin!
That does not include me. I am neither a double minded Christian sinner, nor do I teach it to others as you do.
You debate on the same forum. So you are promoting an opinion. We could call it preaching or exhorting or correcting etc. Your claim that making a mistake/trespass/sin makes you double minded is ludicrous. It makes you honest! Unlike claiming that you are not a person that trespasses at all.
Are you saying you no more lust with the heart? And so you are living holy and blameless without corruption by lust from the heart?
What does that even mean? If someone wanted a promotion they were lusting in the heart? Once He is in our heart, we are much better than before. Not perfect and pure and never ever trespass. Peopl who try to hitch works to salvation are in for a letdown. When they trespass they think they are no longer saved or never were to begin with, and hell bound. I call that on again off again salvation.
 

Ghada

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You forgot to point one out. Never met one myself.
Including yourself. And since you only fellowship with those like yourself, you will never meet a Christian unlike yourself.
Never met anyone who claimed to be like that.
Now you do, at least by testimony, which you do not receive, because you neither believe it is possible nor do it. Your pride is you think all Christians have to be like you, and so you teach it that way, including when it opposes the Bible.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
 

Ghada

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So all saved people are sinless?
Yes.

All church groups are sinless?
No. Not yours by your own testimony. Or at least not you. I trust you are speaking honestly for yourself, but I don't trust you are speaking accurately for others around you. Unless of course you know they are living like you.
The thief on the cross, did He repent from all his 'dead works'?
If he did join Jesus in paradise that day, then he did unto death. No more railing, no more cursing, nor more evil intent for others around him. Just as Jesus on the cross.

God is the judge. If He answered them and lives in them, and is chastening them and leading them, how is it you would call what they do sinful works of the flesh??
I call what you do sinful works of the flesh, because you say your works are still filthy rags. I'm not speaking of Christians led of the Spirit and walking after the Spirit.

That sounds like the Pharisee Jesus talked about who was thanking God he was not as the other sinners.

I do thank God, that while I was a double hearted Christian like you, I didn't accept it for life, and believe a doctrine of saving faith apart from works to justify it. Yes, I can certainly thank god for that. It's not that I have any personal issue with you, I just thank God I'm not still living like you and teaching what you teach.
So when the disciples came to Jesus and asked about a top position in heaven was that 'lusting for the world'? How about when they all fled and forsook Jesus?

You already know the answer.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
About all that remains here is for you to come out and state that you are sinless, perfect and pure every moment of every night and day!
Right now, yes. You never are, because you don't believe in being like Jesus and walking as He walked. That's why He's never made you by His true conversion sinless, perfect, and pure at any moment at any time in your life.

Unless you have forgotten about it by falling into double mindedness for life, and willingly remaining that way.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
 

Ghada

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All saved are blameless because Jesus ransomed them from sin.
Not you. You don't believe in blameless living at any time, and teach it is impossible, and mock anyone who testifies they are.

So what is it you do that makes you think you can keep yourself saved, exactly?

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.




As for conversation, we have seen some of that here. Referring to believers who somehow you think are not as perfect as you as rags and etc.

Only those saying so like you. I take you at your word. If your works are not filthy rags anymore, then you say so.
Jesus was without sin and born that way. You were not.
The Christian doctrine of being born sinners, with sin nature in the flesh, is not the Bible. It's just another doctrine of sinful Christians to justify their continued sinning by blaming it on their bodies.

You are suggesting, apparently, that a saved person will become unsaved at the first so called sin or impurity.

Not so called, but actual sinning with the flesh against God. Yes. We are only as saved as what we are doing at the time.


Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.

The mercy of God is that if we are sinning again, then we still have Jesus as Advocate with the Father, and we can repent and be found alive again in Him, even as the prodigal son.

But while any soul is sinning, that soul is dead separated from the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
The rest of us watch movies, talk to people, listen to radio, music, have marriages, etc etc etc. Jesus is in us, making us perfect, correcting us, and etc. That is why we are able to resist evil and temptation.
By your testimony only some of the time. Other times you are sinning again. You haven't yet repented of all your old sinning, just some of it. And so you preach a Christian imperfect gospel and conversion of gradually sinning less, but never sinning at all as Jesus preaches.

Your position seems to be that you think you have totally resisted all temptation since being saved 100% as well as being pure and perfect in every way.
Never said that. I only speak of now. You're continued lies about what I say is the same as your dishonesty with the Bible.

You are not then, a work in progress.
No. I do not believe in the Christian gospel of gradually sinning less. I believe and obey Jesus' gospel of instantly being newborn in Christ where all things are now of God, and nothing of the devil.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


Instead you seem to be trying to remain sinless and thinking that pretense and charade is what keeps you saved,

As I've said, your unbelief of heart in walking as Jesus walked is well documented.
A law NO ONE has EVER kept but Jesus!
The law of Moses for the OT is not the law of Christ in the NT.

The law brings death. It shows us we cannot keep it.
You show you don't because you won't because you don't want to believe it. That is why you are dead every time you transgress the law of Christ by an unrighteous work of the flesh.

False. People who cling to the cross and mercy of God do not separate works from faith, they separate works from salvation!
Uh, right.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Easy to say and pretend. You might as well add 'everyone but me'!
Once again, I never have. You lie about me, but say the truth about yourself, when you say everyone is like you, and no one can walk with Jesus unlike you.

Praying to be saved does not mean some instant perfection.
As I said, you don't believe in the newborn pure conversion of Jesus Christ. The gospel of your imperfect conversion with gradual progress toward sinning less is Christian progressive humanism.

When we fall
Your gospel is when you fall. The Bible gospel is if we fall. Just another of many small differences between your gospel and that of Jesus Christ in the Bible. They all of course keep pointing to one thing: you're still living with filthy rags, and never know what it's like not to.



He helps us get back up. (as opposed to casting us into hell for one sin)
This is true. If we sin, we still have the same Advocate the whole world has. If we repent.

I never said anything about my life actually. Nor is it I condemning other believers here.
You've talked about your filthy rags and 'mistakes' that the Bible calls sinning. You don't condemn the righteous not living like you, but only mock them.

No one mocks your so called righteous living!
Perhaps you haven't seen my effort to explain just how you are doing that. But, it's pretty obvious. When I testify of living holy and blameless in Christ, you don't believe it and mock it with slurs.


and pretending you are sinless and perfect.
Case in point. Your unbelief in walking as Jesus walked is well documented.
 

Ghada

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so you believe you can go from being righteous to being unrighteous.
Of course. God speaks many times of the righteous many forsaking His righteousness, and doing evil. He also speaks of the unrighteous man repenting and doing righteousness.

Are you saying no one can go from being unrighteous to being righteous? That's denying even your gospel of faith alone.

But true.
Well I can't speak to your hypothetical faith without works strawman you love to beat on, but I teach thae bible.

You don't believe you are saved by your faith only, that is apart from the works you do?
Jesus saves me forever apart from any works.
I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about anymore. Unless you are saying you are saved apart from your faith and your works.

That would be the only way to deny your saving faith is without works.

Unless you are saying there is a difference between have the faith the saves you, and your daily faith that you live by. Is that it?

Jesus has become my righteousness, because He bvecame all my sin (not just most)
Then why has He not become all your righteousness and not just most? Are you saying you are now doing His righteousness at all times, and not only sinning less of the time?

So because I have been made righteous and given a new nature, I am now able to do the works god calls for.

So you are doing His righteousness now and not sinning against Him?
No believer loases their righteousness when they sini.
I can guess your above answers. Yes, you still are sinning, and you call it when you sin. You are not doing His righteousness at all times. He is not become all righteousness to you, but only in part.

Your doctrine is based entirely upon a faith of yours alone. It has nothing to do with what you are actually doing in life. The words you use for 'righteousness' 'made righteous' etc... are doctrinal only, that have no bearing on how you live.

They are just doctrinal words you ascribe to yourself because you believe it, no matter how you are living at the time. It has no foundation in the gospel of Jesus Christ, where only those doing His righteousness are righteous.



Jesus never leaves nor forsakes us, even when we sin. we need to practice 1 John 1:9
The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Your gospel is not the Bible. He does forsake us while we are sinning. That's because he doesn't come and sup with us and the devil, while we are sinning with the devil. (2 Cor 6)

And afterward by His grace we can certainly practice 1 John 1:9.

And 2 John 1 says if we sin, not when. Your gospel is not entirely from the words of the Bible. Like your righteousness, it's only in part, some of the time. Maybe even most of the time, but certainly not all the time like the blessed of the Bible.

You preach an imperfect gospel of less sinning only, and you make doctrine to justify it. You use Bible words to apply to yourself by your own faith alone, when the Bible says we only have them by doing them.
 

Ghada

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So do you believe in sinless perfection then?
On earth with temptations to overcome, yes. That is the Bible teaching and example of Jesus, that we ought to walk as He walked.

The Bible also teaches the sinless perfection of God on the throne, that is without any temptation at all. (James 1) We only arrive at that after being resurrected unto life.

But of course, the 'we', are only those walking as He walked in the end. Not those unlike Jesus sinning by temptation unto the grave.

Those Christians that believe the earthly sinless perfection of Jesus' example, is not possible until the resurrection, will never experience it. They are basically trying to believe they will only become perfectly newborn babes converted in Christ after the grave.

We must become born again with all things now becoming new and of God in this life, nor never.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
 

Ghada

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No you have just quoted James alone. YOu call Paul a liar. No matter how much you protest you do not.
My godd works prove my righteousness, not causes me to be righteous. that is the Word of God according to James.
James 2 says we are justified with God by works, and you don't believe that simple enough statement. So, I'm not particularly impressed with your judgment of my understanding of the Bible. Afterall, I'm the one taking God's words literally.

You're the one throwing in your own words for your own doctrine, and trying to call it the Bible.

Just like no verse of the Bible ever says we are saved by grace through faith 'alone', neither does any verse ever say our good works 'prove' our righteousness. Nor does the Bible talk about 'causing' us to be righteous. Those are all your words slung around out of the faith of your own mind.

I just repeat the words of the Bible and let them do the teaching and preaching.
 

Ghada

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So you also reject Jesus as well.Jesus said unless one believes they are not saved.
Whatever. If you think I am preaching works without faith, then you can only blame that on Jesus whom I quote.
He did not say, believe, and perform good works.
No, He says repent and believe the gospel. He also says do the word and not hear only. He also says we justified by works and not by faith only.

Your gospel of believing only, with repentance and works following is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.


that is the work we must do.
No problem. So long as you are preaching believing is work, so that we are saved and justified by faith with work, and not by any faith that is not work, then that is fine with me. I agree.

all other works proceed from this and this alone.
There is no other works than the work of faith, since there is no other faith, than the faith that is work.

Otherwise, you're just playing word games and trying to slice something out of nothing, and conjure up a difference where none exists.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
 

dad

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Including yourself. And since you only fellowship with those like yourself, you will never meet a Christian unlike yourself.

Now you do, at least by testimony, which you do not receive, because you neither believe it is possible nor do it. Your pride is you think all Christians have to be like you, and so you teach it that way, including when it opposes the Bible.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Let's get this straight. Anyone that hasn't met someone that is perfect has not done so because they don't get out enough and meet the right people!? Seriously? Then you toss in a random verse about how believers see stuff after they are saved!
 

dad

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So Jesus was wrong commanding us to forgive people? (If none had ever sinned or trespassed no forgiveness could be needed)
No. Not yours by your own testimony. Or at least not you. I trust you are speaking honestly for yourself, but I don't trust you are speaking accurately for others around you. Unless of course you know they are living like you.r
Speaking of knowing, you don't know anyone here or that they are perfect or not. I do know. Everyone here is not perfect! Not because I met them, but because the bible says so. (also no one I have ever met was perfect and no one anyone I ever met has met a perfect person either)
If he did join Jesus in paradise that day, then he did unto death. No more railing, no more cursing, nor more evil intent for others around him. Just as Jesus on the cross.
Not sure what you are saying? What has that got to do with what works the poor guy had?
I call what you do sinful works of the flesh, because you say your works are still filthy rags.
Never said any such thing. Ask a lurker. All works or every man and woman on earth are insufficient to save them, that is why Jesus died. That doesn't mean all things believers do is filthy rags by any perverted stretch of the imagination.
I'm not speaking of Christians led of the Spirit and walking after the Spirit.
I am. They are stinkers as well sometimes. How about Noah? They guy got sloshed soon as he got off the boat! And God had just found him to be the most righteous person on the planet!
I do thank God, that while I was a double hearted Christian like you, I didn't accept it for life, and believe a doctrine of saving faith apart from works to justify it. Yes, I can certainly thank god for that. It's not that I have any personal issue with you, I just thank God I'm not still living like you and teaching what you teach.
You thank God you are not as other sinners. I see.
Right now, yes. You never are, because you don't believe in being like Jesus and walking as He walked.
Yes, we try to be like Him. Sometimes we even succeed somewhat. Some more than others. That is not what saved anyone or keeps them saved.
That's why He's never made you by His true conversion sinless, perfect, and pure at any moment at any time in your life.
Like He did you eh? You really think anyone buys that? You might as well sell us London Bridge for 20 dollars.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 2:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those thing are in me! Sometimes I tend to be a little kinder than other times though. Sometimes, Like Peter, I am not as patient as I should be. I don't usually deny Jesus all night six ways from Sunday, lying about who I am, and repeatedly denying Him as well as loudly cussing up a storm!
Peter touches on that subject right after this.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

See, Peter learned that that was a bad thing! He no longer would do that. He was corrected. That does not mean that Peter had brought on himself damnable destruction. He is talking about false brethren. False prophets.

Earlier, Peter made it clear that brethren were not perfect!

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

So having lots of love covers sin among ourselves!
 

dad

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Not you. You don't believe in blameless living at any time, and teach it is impossible, and mock anyone who testifies they are.
Jesus in us makes us blameless.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Amen. Your calling requires a certain behavior and standard. Salvation is a gift. As long as you remember the context, this is a great verse. If we try hard and obey we won't stumble and fall.

Here is the context

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

And if a brother sins against 70 times you are to still forgive him! Though he fall he shall not be utterly cast down!



The Christian doctrine of being born sinners, with sin nature in the flesh, is not the Bible. It's just another doctrine of sinful Christians to justify their continued sinning by blaming it on their bodies.
I see. So now you don't even think you were a sinner before you got saved!

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

There is none righteous. No not one! (thought you were the exception?)


We are only as saved as what we are doing at the time.
He says He will never forsake us. Never leave us. Your little walking on eggshell theory is wrong.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God is not committing sin; for his seed is remaining in him: and he cannot be sinning, because he is born of God.
In that chapter we see this also


2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

One commentary puts it like this

"and he cannot sin; not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin; for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does: but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is because he is born of God: for that which is born of God in him, does, under the influence of the Spirit, power, and grace of God, preserve him from the temptations of Satan, the pollutions of the world, and the corruptions of his own heart; see 1 John 5:18; which the Vulgate Latin version there renders, "the generation of God", meaning regeneration, or that which is born of God, "preserveth him": this furnishes out a considerable argument for the perseverance of the saints. "

or this one

"1 John 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning” Comments - The next verse tells us that a person who is born of God does not commit sin. Thus, within the context of this passage of Scripture 1 John 3:8 refers to a person committing sin as someone who has the same nature as the devil, a person with a sin nature, whose spirit has not been regenerated."

Not saved in other words!

or this one

"He cannot sin ] i.e. Sinningly, so as to be transformed into sin’s image: cannot do wickedly with both hands earnestly, Micah 7:7-9 . He sinneth not totally and finally, he cannot so fall as apostates; for the seed of God ever abideth in him"

etc etc etc


No. I do not believe in the Christian gospel of gradually sinning less. I believe and obey Jesus' gospel of instantly being newborn in Christ where all things are now of God, and nothing of the devil.

We are born again instantly. WE don't grow up instantly!
The law of Moses for the OT is not the law of Christ in the NT.
It was the works the 'perfect' Pharisees did. (at least pretended to do!)
Once again, I never have. You lie about me, but say the truth about yourself, when you say everyone is like you, and no one can walk with Jesus unlike you.
You lie about me lying.
The bible clearly says all have sinned and that even brethren need forgiveness for sins. By your repeated open claims here that you are not a sinner, you say and infer a lot of things.


Your gospel is when you fall. The Bible gospel is if we fall.
My gospel is the one in the bible. The good news. As for falling, well I have shown lots of verses about that. It is not a ticket to hell when we drop a plate or have a fender bender etc.

You've talked about your filthy rags and 'mistakes' that the Bible calls sinning.
You call the sins Jesus commanded us to forgive in our brethren filthy rags, while pretending to be sinless and perfect. Much like the Pharisees basically.
You don't condemn the righteous not living like you, but only mock them.
You have no idea how anyone lives. What I will mock is someone disgracing the name of Jesus by pretending they were not sinners and needed Him to save us. They make the cross of Christ to no effect.
When I testify of living holy and blameless in Christ, you don't believe it and mock it with slurs.
That is because it is such a foolish claim and ridiculous charade that insults Scripture that it should be held up and exposed for what it is.
 

mailmandan

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Ok but I might ask, evidence to who, and in whose eyes?
In the eyes of God and also to men. Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

What some men judge as nothing that they can see, God might judge as something else. So it gets down to judge not. We do not see and know all. Some men would have thought the widow offering a penny was terrible compared to the stash of cash the rich man gave. How about a parent's prayers? How would I know what prayers people have? Etc etc. Some might think that a billionaire's foundation was a wonderful work for God. Others might think it was a scam that supported abortion and other evil causes. God is the judge and He knows the heart. He also might know that some are late bloomers compared to others. None of that affects the fact that a saved person is His child and bound for eternity.
1 Corinthians 4:5 - Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of human hearts; and then praise will come to each person from God.

To who? If I were a passer by I might have missed that and accused the thief of being a horrible person that did no good while hanging there. And maybe it is safe to say that some people simply do not have a lot of works and won't be getting great rewards compared to others. The point in the discussion here that bears focusing on, is that some posters hinge salvation on works. Both to get saved and stay saved.
The thief on the cross showed faith to Jesus and anyone else who was around to hear his words. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Right. In some cases that might be almost everything. Shameful. Better to be raised shining like the sun and have Jesus say to us 'well done, you good and faithful servant'
Of course.
 

Brakelite

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Faith demonstrated by works is what we are judged by. What saves us is the blood of the Lamb. We accept the grace and mercy of God by believing that the blood atones for our sin, that we are forgiven, and we have repented of the wickedness of our past lives and surrendered our new born again lives to Him. Our works are evidence that the above faith and trust is real. The world are the fruit of that faith. They are the evidence. And like every court case, with a judge, prosecuting attorney, and defence lawyer, it is the evidence that convicts... Not our protestations of innocence.

Read Hebrews 11. Name one of those heroes who was justified by faith alone.
 

CadyandZoe

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But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

According to Jesus, lusting takes enough will and energy to be condemned as committing sinful works.
Our actions are not the only things that matter, what we feel in our hearts is also important. There is a significant difference between wanting to commit a sin and actually doing it. Jesus' message is that even if we hide our desire to commit adultery from others, God still sees it. Therefore, we are not judged solely on our actions, but also on our inner selves. For example, if I desire to sleep with my neighbor's wife, but do not act on it, I am still accountable for my thoughts and desires in the eyes of God.

It's important to recognize that we are not judged solely based on our actions, but rather on our character. Our actions are simply a reflection of who we are. However, it's also important to note that even if we don't do anything good or bad, God still knows our true nature.
A common error of believers is to define words by man's definitions, and not by God's in the Bible.
I respectfully have a different perspective. The Bible was written in a language that is understandable to humans, which means that all the words used were human words. However, the concepts, thoughts, and ideas conveyed in the Bible are inspired by God. It is important for us as readers to comprehend the meaning behind the words and the ideas they intend to convey.
The natural mind that you are speaking from now, doesn't perceive the things of the Spirit. God says in plain words that He judges our thoughts and intents of the heart as works. Jesus calls them the first works of our spirit (Rev 2), that He sees, which lead to our bodily works, that men see.
It's not up to either of us to decide if someone can't understand spiritual matters. We shouldn't judge or look down on others who hold different views. It's best to express our beliefs honestly and confidently and let others decide for themselves if they want to take them up.
Outwardly yes, just as Jesus says. It's called being kind and neighborly to all men in need, when we have power to do so.
I recall listening to my pastor's story about his early days. He had a genuine desire to help as many people as possible. Whenever someone was facing a challenge, he would offer his assistance. However, he soon realized that his efforts were taking a toll on his relationship with his own children. He had become so consumed with helping strangers that he neglected his family. This experience taught him a valuable lesson about his limitations and he realized that he couldn't be everything to everyone. We all have our limits and it's important to recognize that we can't solve every problem or have all the answers.
 

Brakelite

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If we believe the Bible, then in any manner of speaking the Father does judge every man, regardless of beliefs, according to our works.


True. We can either choose to believe all the words of the Bible, or not. And also we can choose to do the words or not. The Bible says that by not doing the word, our faith we have is dead.

They have a faith, just not God's saving faith.



Which will be determined by judgement of our works.

Being born of God is taught differently between the Bible and some other gospel.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.


Being born of God in the Bible is always with the good and righteous works of Jesus' faith.




Until we are obedient sons of God, our faith remains dead, and we are not born of God.

The Bible says plainly only those doing His will are born of God and are members of His family.




If we are doing His will.

These doctrine-spun words sound fair and pretty enough, but they have no substance of righteous and good works. They divert from living godly, and only offer a fair speech of 'living with God' without living godly.





True. And all doers of such unrighteous works of the flesh are judged and condemned by their ungodly works.

Believers without doing good are judged and condemned the same as unbelievers not doing good.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


God is not a respecter of persons based upon faith alone, but justly judges every man's works the same, if we are doing the same, whether good unto life, or sinful unto death.



Absolutely true in John 3. That includes believers by hearing only, as well as unbelievers not naming His name.

The unbelievers are more honest.


Another spun empty faith speech, that says nothing of the doing the truth. All faith and coming and light, and no works nor deeds. It's like Jesus looking for the fruit on the tree, and only finding many bright leaves.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The Bible says we come to God, that our deeds may be judged as good.

Teachers of faith alone without works, can't even so much as speaks of deeds and works in the same sentence as their speeches of faith only.


I.e. our past works of good or evil, before coming to Christ, mean nothing to God and are all counted as filthy rags to Him, no matter how neighborly we were.

Our present works and deeds with Jesus, are now good and righteous altogether. And our works at the end are judged to be reward with resurrection unto life, or unto shame.


This is faith without works taught with an appearance of humility.

What we did, does nothing toward being justified with God. What we now do does everything towards being justified with God and judged worthy to be rewarded with resurrection from the dead unto life.

Inheriting the everlasting kingdom of Christ is only for them doing His will unto the end.

Believing Him and His will is good, without doing it, is worse then the unbelievers, that do not shame Him by naming His name with lips only.



We receive the righteousness of God with a whole new life born of God. We do His righteousness to be justified in our faith, that it is of God, or of ourselves alone.

The Bible fact is we cannot be judged righteous and justified to live with God now nor in the resurrection, without doing His righteousness.

The main problem with the faith alone gospel without works, is that it applies what is true about our past lives without Christ, to our present lives with Christ.

That disannuls the judgment of God by our works, and replaces it with our own faith alone.


True. We are not washed clean by our past works without Christ. We are kept clean by our present righteous works in Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God is not sinning; but he that is begotten of God is keeping himself, and that wicked one is touching him not.


Once again, the main problem is applying our old sinful lives before Christ, to our present lives in Christ.

This is the partial doctrine of Christ, that always falls short by faith alone.

The Bible says only by doing His righteousness are we being righteous as Him.

This is doctrinally parsing between being made righteous by faith only and being righteous by works. As though there were a difference.

Separate being made righteous from being righteous, can only come from separating faith from works. The Bible doesn't.



Only the dishonest self-righteous Christians, like the Jews, think to add their own special commandments and rules to the law of Christ, so that they are more righteous than Jesus, and condemn Him by their own rules.

The dishonest Christians on the other side of the sword, are the ones trying to take away from His righteousness, in order to bring His will down to their own sinful level.
Sadly, the vast majority of Christians seem to think that righteousness imputed is sufficient for salvation. They stop their experience at the cross, and declare, "that's the finished work". Jesus wasn't intending anyone to take that declaration in that context. People forget that without the resurrection, we are all lost. The resurrection, and Christ's work as Mediator and High Priest, imparts House righteousness. Righteousness imputed and righteousness imparted, a package deal.
 

mailmandan

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Faith demonstrated by works is what we are judged by. What saves us is the blood of the Lamb. We accept the grace and mercy of God by believing that the blood atones for our sin, that we are forgiven, and we have repented of the wickedness of our past lives and surrendered our new born again lives to Him. Our works are evidence that the above faith and trust is real. The world are the fruit of that faith. They are the evidence. And like every court case, with a judge, prosecuting attorney, and defence lawyer, it is the evidence that convicts... Not our protestations of innocence.

Read Hebrews 11. Name one of those heroes who was justified by faith alone.
So, you believe that we are justified/accounted as righteous by faith AND works? Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Brakelite

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So, you believe that we are justified/accounted as righteous by faith AND works? Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (faith plus what? faith plus nothing) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Judged by our works, which are evidence of our faith. We are justified by the blood of Christ. I think I said that before.
 

mailmandan

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Sadly, the vast majority of Christians seem to think that righteousness imputed is sufficient for salvation. They stop their experience at the cross, and declare, "that's the finished work". Jesus wasn't intending anyone to take that declaration in that context. People forget that without the resurrection, we are all lost. The resurrection, and Christ's work as Mediator and High Priest, imparts House righteousness. Righteousness imputed and righteousness imparted, a package deal.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Now show me the word "imparted" in scripture. A package deal of salvation by faith AND works is not taught in scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 10:4; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 

mailmandan

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Judged by our works, which are evidence of our faith. We are justified by the blood of Christ. I think I said that before.
Do you believe that we are justified/accounted as righteous by faith AND works? Yes or no?
Judged by our works to determine what? See 1 Corinthians 3:11-14.