The Time is Fulfilled

[Eternally Grateful]

I am aware that the Old Testament portrays two different depictions of the Messiah, which may appear somewhat conflicting.

It has been suggested that the Jewish community regards Israel, rather than the messiah, as the suffering servant. This belief may have played a role in the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by some of his contemporaries. Peter, for instance, once admonished Jesus for suggesting that God might allow his servant to undergo crucifixion (as recounted in Matthew 16:22).

According to Paul, the idea of a suffering messiah was a secret that had been unknown for a long time. This confirms that the concept of a suffering messiah was not widely known or accepted.

What did you have in mind?

The prophecies concerning the servant in Jesus day as you said would be different.

so what event would the Jew see to see that the messiah, and not the suffering servant, was shown. Remember the jews did not see jesus as messiah. Because he did not fit their interpretation of what he would be (which is true)

 

[ScottA]

Someone brought this up in another forum. The poster was saying the “time fulfilled” in Mark 1:15 was Daniel’s 69 weeks.

I don’t think I agree with that but I thought it would make for good discussion here.

What are your thoughts on what time this is referring to?

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

It would depend on whether you were asking the question regarding the whole or only the part of what was referred to.

In other words, there is a context and truth regarding that immediate time, but also a greater context regarding all of time (before and after His coming) just as the acts of Christ were primarily fulfilled at that time, but also include the salvation of the whole of history. This greater perspective correctly even goes on to state that Jesus "was slain before the foundation of the world", while some who do not understand would say, "No, but it was at 33ad that He went to the cross."

I prefer to think in the greater context of God rather than the lessor context of the times of men. In which case the "time fulfilled" refers rather to all of time being fulfilled...as it all comes after "before the foundation of the world." Meaning that all of time was foreshadowed as a prelude with the seven days of creation, and is also referred to as "seventy weeks"...all of which in the original language is defined as "sevens" or rather "times" without any actual root even to "sevens" except as they were explained by the creation narrative and then played out over times. Which is then also stated by Daniel and throughout the scriptures, as, "a time, times, and half a time." The point being that "times" only refers to the explanation narrative rather than the timeless reality of what actually occurred timelessly "before the foundation of the world", before time.

Thus, there is a subject and also an object to what is written which are not the same. Such is the nature of parables, and the reason Jesus came to say, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?"--because--if you can receive it--every word is all parables by nature, all regarding what was first "before the foundation of the world."

 

[jeffweeder]

The problem with this analysis is that Daniel 9 doesn't speak about the kingdom of God.

It speaks of atonement and everlasting righteous Cady and Zoe.
These are fruits of the kingdom of only being in Jesus.


3 Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh [the physical is merely physical], and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Being born of the Spirit requires the fulfillment of Dan 9.


John 7:39
But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).


Jesus was glorified once he accomplished all the work that God sent him to do.


Jn 17
4 I have glorified You [down here] on the earth by completing the work that You gave Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It speaks of atonement and everlasting righteous Cady and Zoe.
These are fruits of the kingdom of only being in Jesus.


3 Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh [the physical is merely physical], and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Being born of the Spirit requires the fulfillment of Dan 9.


John 7:39
But He was speaking of the [Holy] Spirit, whom those who believed in Him [as Savior] were to receive afterward. The Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (raised to honor).


Jesus was glorified once he accomplished all the work that God sent him to do.


Jn 17
4 I have glorified You [down here] on the earth by completing the work that You gave Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

Dan 9 has nothing to do with our salvation.

Its not about us!

 

[CadyandZoe]

It speaks of atonement and everlasting righteous Cady and Zoe.
These are fruits of the kingdom of only being in Jesus.

Yes, good point. But can we return to the passage so I can make a quick observation?

Let's conduct a thought experiment. How would the following passage appear to Daniel's target audience, specifically to someone who lived during Daniel's time and had no knowledge of the Gospel of Christ? What conclusions would they draw?

Daniel 9:24

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.​

To me, it appears that someone living during Daniel's time would concluded that it was Israel's responsibility as a nation to complete the transgression, put an end to sin, and so on. Do you agree? We should be grateful for Jesus Christ. However, if Jesus Christ was not known to you, would you interpret Daniel's words differently and conclude that God granted Daniel's people seventy weeks to complete the transgression and the remainder?

During Jesus' time, did the Jewish leaders believe it was their responsibility to end sin and make amends for wrongdoing through the works of the Law? While Daniel mentioned atonement for iniquity, he was likely referring to the sacrificial system and the Law of Moses. My earlier point is this. I believe the gospel of a loving savior who would take away the sins of the world through death on a cross is absent from Daniel 9.

 

[covenantee]

Dan 9 has nothing to do with our salvation.

Its not about us!

Did you know that, folks? Calvary is not about us.

If you've knelt at the Cross and believed that you've received salvation, too bad.

You're still mired in unrighteousness and iniquity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan 9

Did you know that, folks? Calvary is not about us.

If you've knelt at the Cross and believed that you've received salvation, too bad.

You're still mired in unrighteousness and iniquity.

Dan 9 is is not about calvary. This has been shown to you to many times to count

But you can believe what you want.

 

[covenantee]

Dan 9

Dan 9 is is not about calvary. This has been shown to you to many times to count

But you can believe what you want.

Did Daniel 9:24 occur somewhere other than Calvary?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan 9; 24 concerning

Did Daniel 9:24 occur somewhere other than Calvary?

Daniels people and his holy city has not happened till this day..

Your looking for something that is not there

the only thing about the cross in dan 9 is the fact we are told messiah will get cut off (killed)

 

[covenantee]

Dan 9; 24 concerning

Daniels people and his holy city has not happened till this day..

Your looking for something that is not there

the only thing about the cross in dan 9 is the fact we are told messiah will get cut off (killed)

You didn't answer the question.

Is Daniel 9:24 referring to something other than what occurred at Calvary?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You didn't answer the question.

Is Daniel 9:24 referring to something other than what occurred at Calvary?

lol..

And you wonder why I usually ignore anything you say

Dan 9: 24 is when Israel repents (ends her transgressions and sins.)

I did answer your question. just not in a way that supports you..

learn some humility

 

[covenantee]

lol..

And you wonder why I usually ignore anything you say

Dan 9: 24 is when Israel repents (ends her transgressions and sins.)

I did answer your question. just not in a way that supports you..

learn some humility

You're clearly unable to answer the question.

Every individual of every nation, including every Jew inside and outside of Jerusalem who has knelt at the Cross and received Christ since Calvary; has experienced Daniel 9:24.

Daniel 9:24 is about every one of them.

Learn some kindergarten Christianity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're clearly unable to answer the question.

Every individual of every nation, including every Jew inside and outside of Jerusalem who has knelt at the Cross and received Christ since Calvary; has experienced Daniel 9:24.

Daniel 9:24 is about every one of them.

Learn some kindergarten Christianity.

once again

Dan 9 does not concern us

It concerns Daniels people and his holy city (jerusalem)

Is jerusalem holy today?

 

[covenantee]

once again

Dan 9 does not concern us

It concerns Daniels people and his holy city (jerusalem)

Is jerusalem holy today?

Daniel 9:24 is Calvary and Calvary concerns everyone.

Are Jewish Christians in Jerusalem holy today?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Daniel 9:24 is Calvary and Calvary concerns everyone.

Are Jewish Christians holy today?

Good by.

24 “Seventy [a]weeks are determined
For your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

ITS NOT ABOUT ME OR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[covenantee]

Good by.

24 “Seventy [a]weeks are determined
For your people (Israel) and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

ITS NOT ABOUT ME OR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right, it's not about you, because you deny and reject the righteousness and reconciliation of Daniel 9:24.

It is about me, because I've accepted and experienced the righteousness and reconciliation of Daniel 9:24.

Too bad about you.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, good point. But can we return to the passage so I can make a quick observation?

Let's conduct a thought experiment. How would the following passage appear to Daniel's target audience, specifically to someone who lived during Daniel's time and had no knowledge of the Gospel of Christ? What conclusions would they draw?

I see no reason why they wouldnt think of this...,

Is 53
Who has believed [confidently trusted in, relied on, and adhered to] our message [of salvation]?
And to whom [if not us] has the arm and infinite power of the Lord been revealed?
2
For He [the Servant of God] grew up before Him like a tender shoot (plant),
And like a root out of dry ground;
He has no stately form or majestic splendor
That we would look at Him,
Nor [handsome] appearance that we would be attracted to Him.
3
He was despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and pain and acquainted with grief;
And like One from whom men hide their faces
He was despised, and we did not appreciate His worth or esteem Him.
4
But [in fact] He has borne our griefs,
And He has carried our sorrows and pains;
Yet we [ignorantly] assumed that He was stricken,
Struck down by God and degraded and humiliated [by Him].
5
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our wickedness [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing];
The punishment [required] for our well-being fell on Him,
And by His stripes (wounds) we are healed.
6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
We have turned, each one, to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wickedness of us all [our sin, our injustice, our wrongdoing]
To fall on Him [instead of us].
7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth [to complain or defend Himself];
Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before her shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 After oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation [His contemporaries], who [among them] concerned himself with the fact
That He was cut off from the land of the living [by His death]
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke [of death] was due?
9
His grave was assigned with the wicked,
But He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10
Yet the Lord was willing
To crush Him, causing Him to suffer;
If He would give Himself as a guilt offering [an atonement for sin],
He shall see His [spiritual] offspring,
He shall prolong His days,
And the will (good pleasure) of the Lord shall succeed and prosper in His hand.
11
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He shall see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge [of what He has accomplished] the Righteous One,
My Servant, shall justify the many [making them righteous—upright before God, in right standing with Him],
For He shall bear [the responsibility for] their sins.
12
Therefore, I will divide and give Him a portion with the great [kings and rulers],
And He shall divide the spoils with the mighty,
Because He [willingly] poured out His life to death,
And was counted among the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore and took away the sin of many,
And interceded [with the Father] for the transgressors.

Daniel 9:24

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.​

To me, it appears that someone living during Daniel's time would concluded that it was Israel's responsibility as a nation to complete the transgression, put an end to sin, and so on. Do you agree?

Absolutely not.
Over 40 years a Christian I know better to think i can put away my own sin. I need the Saviour.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did Daniel 9:24 occur somewhere other than Calvary?

Occasionally, the content of a passage may differ from its topic. Calvary is not mentioned in the passage. But atonement is. During Daniel's time, what was the prescribed method for atonement? Daniel and his readers were familiar with the Day of Atonement as described in Leviticus 16.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I see no reason why they wouldnt think of this...,

I agree with you that Isaiah 53 was predicting Jesus. I don't think anyone living at the time understood what we understand today.

Absolutely not.
Over 40 years a Christian I know better to think i can put away my own sin. I need the Saviour.

Yes, I have no doubt that you understand the gospel brother. :) I simply wondered how Daniel's contemporaries might have understood Daniel 9:24, not having access to the gospel as you and I do. I think it bears on the meaning of the passage.

 

[jeffweeder]

Occasionally, the content of a passage may differ from its topic. Calvary is not mentioned in the passage. But atonement is. During Daniel's time, what was the prescribed method for atonement? Daniel and his readers were familiar with the Day of Atonement as described in Leviticus 16.

What was the prescribed method for understanding everlasting righteousness?
Couldn't be the blood of an animal sacrificed every year could it.?
Has to be the blood of the suffering servant once and for all.