People say you can not lose faith, God can't lose you, is that true?

[Eternally Grateful]

Okay. In my experience, when folks talk about "losing faith" the central issue is the doctrine of "eternal security."

The quote below was given on the internet.

In Reformed Christianity, eternal security is a logical consequence of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, according to which true Christians will persevere in good works and faith. Because faith is God's perfect gift it will inevitably produce perseverance in faith and good works.​

Putting the question another way . . . "Do we participate in our own salvation? If so, how much?"

Perhaps you intended to raise a different topic. If so, I apologize for the misunderstanding. :)

as for the quote. I do not like it

Believers do not persevere until the end..

believers are saved completely (perfected) in the begining..

 

[MatthewG]

But I am not satan, nor is anyone else. No person has the knowledge and experience with dealing with the human race. Why do you think over and over mankind keeps making the same mistakes? Because satan knows just how to convince them.

I can be satan to people. Do you know what the word means? It comes from the word, Satana's, it means (the adversary, opposer), have you ever heard that we can be our own worst enemy? Why would anyone say that?

From my understanding there was a Character named Satan but he was done away with - however we as human beings - have choice have sinned and start out with darkness inside of us being selfish and greedy, even from the first lie we ever told.

Therefore, if darkness exist in a person and it is opposed to light - your own thoughts can become an opposer against you, which needs to be cast down and brought to God in prayer.

Can you understand why I would say that now? Let me put in a example like this.

Susie saw a person who claimed to be her friend just randomly at a park. They talked, they laughed, they commented on other people, and the friend asked susie to come with him, and susie says okay, and they travel to this persons house.

This person then attacks sally, and ends her life. Not every person is like this, but there are human beings that are like this.

Satan has no real desire to harm you. Just prevent you from seeing the truth and being a weapon in Gods army..

Satan is just an accuser of people when the Law is around, but the Law was done away with, and nailed to the cross. How can he accuse anyone today? Unless there are people who are opposers to Christ, and say you must go back and do the law - yada yada.

so your not going to tell me what you meant?

smh

and you wonder why people give you such grief.. you say things, then when someone questions them, you pass the buck

You have to deal with your own grief if you are not desirous to go and work and learn and study...

It's not my problem I just a messenger so please don't shoot me.

eternal life is not eternal?

why would you not know the base doctrine of the gospel?

I don't believe in eternal security. At the end of life my hope is to go be resurrected and be with God. That is all I do know from the bible. There is faith, hope and love.

Do you see something more than that? The promises of God are there - I hope they come to fruition, that is called faith.

work out what is in you

if he meant work to gain salvation or to keep it. he would have said work in order to gain salvation.

also. remember, the same author called the galatian church fools because they thought they began in the flesh (faith) but must perfect it by works)

Thank you for sharing me the way you see it,

All the best in Christ,
Matthew

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can be satan to people. Do you know what the word means? It comes from the word, Satana's, it means (the adversary, opposer), have you ever heard that we can be our own worst enemy? Why would anyone say that?

now your just playing games

You know exactly what I am talking about

From my understanding there was a Character named Satan but he was done away with - however we as human beings - have choice have sinned and start out with darkness inside of us being selfish and greedy, even from the first lie we ever told.

Therefore, if darkness exist in a person and it is opposed to light - your own thoughts can become an opposer against you, which needs to be cast down and brought to God in prayer.

Can you understand why I would say that now? Let me put in a example like this.

Susie saw a person who claimed to be her friend just randomly at a park. They talked, they laughed, they commented on other people, and the friend asked susie to come with him, and susie says okay, and they travel to this persons house.

This person then attacks sally, and ends her life. Not every person is like this, but there are human beings that are like this.

Satan is just an accuser of people when the Law is around, but the Law was done away with, and nailed to the cross. How can he accuse anyone today? Unless there are people who are opposers to Christ, and say you must go back and do the law - yada yada.


You have to deal with your own grief if you are not desirous to go and work and learn and study...

It's not my problem I just a messenger so please don't shoot me.





I don't believe in eternal security. At the end of life my hope is to go be resurrected and be with God. That is all I do know from the bible. There is faith, hope and love.

Do you see something more than that? The promises of God are there - I hope they come to fruition, that is called faith.




Thank you for sharing me the way you see it,

All the best in Christ,
Matthew

Satan, the man of lawlessness, the man of sin, has not been done away with.

you telling people that he has is dangerous.. Because God warned us about him, and how he can decieve,, He still decieves today..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't believe in eternal security. At the end of life my hope is to go be resurrected and be with God. That is all I do know from the bible. There is faith, hope and love.

Do you see something more than that? The promises of God are there - I hope they come to fruition, that is called faith.




Thank you for sharing me the way you see it,

All the best in Christ,
Matthew

So you really have no hope at all do you? Your hope is based on self, and how good you are? I do not see any other way of interpreting this

Our faith is based on hope. the hope we are told is eternal life. which God promised before time began (titus 3) and we can know we have eternal life. and based on this FACT, we can be empowered to continue to believe (the basis of our hope and faith)

and we love because he first loved us, If you have not been saved or given eternal life.. you do not have the hope within you nore do you have a true capacity to love

 

[MatthewG]

now your just playing games

You know exactly what I am talking about

Look it up rather than just ... saying your opinion.

Satan: Satan.
Original Word: Σατᾶν, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Satan
Phonetic Spelling: (sat-an')
Definition: Satan
Usage: Satan.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4566 Satán – Satan, the same fallen angel as 4567 /Satanás ("the adversary, opposer," see there).

4566 /Satán ("Satan") only occurs in 2 Cor 12:7, in relation to the "thorn in the flesh."

[The absence of the definite article is probably not significant, given the genitive construction.]

Satanas: the adversary, Satan, i.e. the devil
Original Word: Σατανᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Satanas
Phonetic Spelling: (sat-an-as')
Definition: the adversary, Satan, the devil
Usage: an adversary, Satan.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of Hebrew origin satan
Definition
the adversary, Satan, i.e. the devil
NASB Translation
Satan (35), Satan's (1).

Satan, the man of lawlessness, the man of sin, has not been done away with.

you telling people that he has is dangerous.. Because God warned us about him, and how he can decieve,, He still decieves today..

You can have your opinion like I done stated before, if you wanna believe that way by all means.

You can't tell me what I have to believe or do not believe,

Sorry,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

So you really have no hope at all do you?

What do you mean I have no hope, how can you judge?

Your hope is based on self, and how good you are?

Where did you get any of this from what was written?

I do not see any other way of interpreting this

Okay.

Our faith is based on hope. the hope we are told is eternal life. which God promised before time began (titus 3) and we can know we have eternal life. and based on this FACT, we can be empowered to continue to believe (the basis of our hope and faith)

Okay.

and we love because he first loved us, If you have not been saved or given eternal life.. you do not have the hope within you nore do you have a true capacity to love

Okay.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,
Matthew

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe,

So how would explain it to a simple guy on the street? If they asked you, saying "Hey CadyandZoe, you are a bible believer, I heard someone talk about "work out your salvation and trembling", if you have heard that before how would you explain that cause I never heard it before?

all in love,
Matthew

I'm not sure that's possible because Paul's epistle to the Philippians relies on a shared body of knowledge between him and his audience.

Also, there remains a distinct difference between what Paul actually meant and what people think he meant. The alleged meaning remains focused on the fear of God. We are working out our own salvation by adopting a fear of God. In other words, in the process of saving yourself adopt the fear of God as one of the essential means to that end.

But Paul's essential exhortation is to adopt the same attitude that Christ did. He argues that although Christ deserved to be treated as the most important person in the world, as king of kings and Lord of lords, he treated common people as equals. He healed them and cared for them and he respected them. Jesus wasn't uppish, bigheaded, or immodest. He wasn't snobbish, snooty, or stuck-up. With rare occasions, He treated people with kindness, gentleness, and humility. He was attractive because although he was superior in every way, he acted like one of us. He never talked down to his kinsmen or his disciples.

Simple version: treat people the way Christ did.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Look it up rather than just ... saying your opinion.

Satan: Satan.
Original Word: Σατᾶν, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Satan
Phonetic Spelling: (sat-an')
Definition: Satan
Usage: Satan.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4566 Satán – Satan, the same fallen angel as 4567 /Satanás ("the adversary, opposer," see there).

4566 /Satán ("Satan") only occurs in 2 Cor 12:7, in relation to the "thorn in the flesh."

[The absence of the definite article is probably not significant, given the genitive construction.]

Satanas: the adversary, Satan, i.e. the devil
Original Word: Σατανᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Satanas
Phonetic Spelling: (sat-an-as')
Definition: the adversary, Satan, the devil
Usage: an adversary, Satan.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
of Hebrew origin satan
Definition
the adversary, Satan, i.e. the devil
NASB Translation
Satan (35), Satan's (1).




You can have your opinion like I done stated before, if you wanna believe that way by all means.

You can't tell me what I have to believe or do not believe,

Sorry,
Matthew

I think like someone warned me, You are just playing games

You know exactly who I am talking about. he has many names But I am talking of the one who will be bound.. You know this because you said he is already put away.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, I take it as anyone can come to you as an 'angel of light' but secertly behind the eye they is darkness and they desire to harm you, but that is subjective...


@Eternally Grateful,

Then I greatly encourage you to read all four Gospels.

That is all I can honestly say to you because I could help you but that means you do not go and do any of the seeking and searching yourself, and I am not fixing to do that.

Only encourage casting your worries and anxityes to God and you will be more free, trust Jesus and please...

be encourage to read the bible, I don't care which version.

I did this for two weeks and relapsed on meth but ...

Ill share it just so you can see it's important...

https://www.youtube.com/@GNSharing/videos

- Day one Matthew chapter 1 - 9,

- Day two Matthew chapter 10-16

- Day three Matthew 17-24


All the best cause I can only help so much you gotta do some work too, and may God Guide.

Matthew

I think perhaps @Eternally Grateful (and I) are looking for a passage where it is written that Satan no longer exists. Or did I miss that? If I did, I apologize.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean I have no hope, how can you judge?

I can be judge because you have no hope.

If you are not assured of salvation. then you should have fear.. the greatest fear mankind can have

Where did you get any of this from what was written?

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,
Matthew

I will pray for you.

That you open you rmind and stop thinking everyone is out to get you.

 

[Rockerduck]

Satan is real, demons are real. Don't believe me, just go to a hospital mental ward. There you can have a conversation with demons. I've seen possessed people, they are inside people in prisons.

 

[MatthewG]

I think like someone warned me, You are just playing games

You know exactly who I am talking about. he has many names But I am talking of the one who will be bound.. You know this because you said he is already put away.

The bible talks about the defeat of Satan from Genesis to Revelation,

If you are paranoid, or if you think I am lying, just call me a liar.

It doesn't matter to me you can go on with your life in fear that Satan is still roaming around, or you can walk around in your life, in confidence of faith that Satan has been done away with.

That choice is all on you: I done made my choice - and people are really afraid of ...

Oh matthew believes Satan has been done away with - he is crazy - he is the son of the devil.

Who cares what people think of me, God sees me, and see my heart...

I can be judge because you have no hope.

May God judge you then.

If you are not assured of salvation. then you should have fear.. the greatest fear mankind can have

I believe Jesus Christ brings forth deliverance, that is what his name means. God is salvation.

I will pray for you.

Thank you.

That you open you rmind and stop thinking everyone is out to get you.

What do you mean? And how do you make these assessments?

I do not think anyone is out to get me...

All the best man, or woman,
Matthew

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not sure that's possible because Paul's epistle to the Philippians relies on a shared body of knowledge between him and his audience.

Also, there remains a distinct difference between what Paul actually meant and what people think he meant. The alleged meaning remains focused on the fear of God. We are working out our own salvation by adopting a fear of God. In other words, in the process of saving yourself adopt the fear of God as one of the essential means to that end.

But Paul's essential exhortation is to adopt the same attitude that Christ did. He argues that although Christ deserved to be treated as the most important person in the world, as king of kings and Lord of lords, he treated common people as equals. He healed them and cared for them and he respected them. Jesus wasn't uppish, bigheaded, or immodest. He wasn't snobbish, snooty, or stuck-up. With rare occasions, He treated people with kindness, gentleness, and humility. He was attractive because although he was superior in every way, he acted like one of us. He never talked down to his kinsmen or his disciples.

Simple version: treat people the way Christ did.

the word translated "work out" is used as a mining term, they would work out. or mine these gems, so that the gens which are there can be usefull (while they are in the ground, they are there, but they are not useful)

Paul is saying take the salvation that is in you and work it out so that you can be a light in a dark world..not because we work. but because it is God who works in us.

And we should be in fear that by not doing this, we ourselves become dark, and our light be snuffed out

 

[MatthewG]

Satan is real, demons are real. Don't believe me, just go to a hospital mental ward. There you can have a conversation with demons. I've seen possessed people, they are inside people in prisons.

That doesnt seem right,

I have worked with mentally ill patients you would consider them demon possessed?

in Love,
Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

So, can you lose your faith? By something coming up in your life? By doubtful thoughts if things are working out with you and God and you just simply give up on the relationship? Shaking your fist at God, or become indifferent?

My thoughts say yes.

But some say they were never saved anyway, but those who say this are not God nor do they see the heart… but the Almighty God does; and he never stops calling by the spirit which says come and drink freely of the water that is eternal.

 

[Rockerduck]

That doesnt seem right,

I have worked with mentally ill patients you would consider them demon possessed?

in Love,
Matthew

I should have prefaced criminally insane: in mental hospitals. Also, mental facilities have diseased mental problems caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. These can be healed by the laying on of hands by Holy Spirit filled Christians.

 

[MatthewG]

I should have prefaced criminally insane: in mental hospitals. Also, mental facilities have diseased mental problems caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. These can be healed by the laying on of hands by Holy Spirit filled Christians.

@Rockerduck,

You can have that opinion.

Just sharing Jesus could help though, ted bundy, i think was someone who came to christ but then was shortly killed afterward. Or it was jeffery damher one of the two. Mental ill people stay mentally ill, and psychotic can have their mind changed, perhaps with the Word of God (Yeshua).

It takes time though.

In love,
Matthew

 

[Stumpmaster]

as for the quote. I do not like it

Believers do not persevere until the end..

believers are saved completely (perfected) in the begining..

What do backsliders slide back from?

 

[DJT_47]

Those verses in Hebrews which "on the surface" appear to teach what you are saying don't match your eisegesis once read in context.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. *Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39). Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

In Hebrews 6:9, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In Hebrews 10:26, the term "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention which is habitual and stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it and not maintain it.

?????
Bottom line and to simply it for you, the letter to the Hebrews was to Hebrew brethren in Christ: they were saved believers, newly converted Jews. The warnings in it are clear; warning them of falling away, denouncing Christ, and reverting back to their previous religious beliefs.

 

[mailmandan]

?????
Bottom line and to simply it for you, the letter to the Hebrews was to Hebrew brethren in Christ: they were saved believers, newly converted Jews. The warnings in it are clear; warning them of falling away, denouncing Christ, and reverting back to their previous religious beliefs.

The letter may have been written to Hebrew brethren, but that does not mean everyone in this group of "professing" Hebrew Christians were genuine Christians as I already showed you in post #33. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with any large group of "professing" Christians in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.