Denominations that teach only they will be saved

[face2face]

@Wrangler I've read back as far as I can but unsure what you and Taken are discussing? What's your point of difference on the New Heart? or it something more?
F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

You're on fire this morning!

It just dawned on me, but it's not morning here. 7 PM in the evening.
I'm heading to bed. I roll out at 3 AM to get ready for work.

 

[face2face]

That's a pretty modern view.
In Jesus' day, and well before that, it was common for men to own female slaves as concubines.
Only premarital sex and sex with another man's wife was prohibited.

A Bible search in the KJV produces these results.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: concubine

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Modern view you say

 

[face2face]

It just dawned on me, but it's not morning here. 7 PM in the evening.
I'm heading to bed. I roll out at 3 AM to get ready for work.

I'll be sure to fabricate lies and deception about you while you sleep peacefully! In the morning you will awake to a new reality :cool: What do you do for a living?

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler I've read back as far as I can but unsure what you and Taken are discussing? What's your point of difference on the New Heart? or it something more?
F2F

The point of difference is grace v works based theology. Her repeated contention is the new heart is a quid pro quo reward for what she calls "AFTER lay down their natural blood lives for Belief IN the Lord God Almighty."

Ezekiel 36:26 is not a quid pro quo contract but an unconditional covenant. God will give us a new heart without conditions, based on his glory, his unmerited favor and plan for us in a new covenant.

Are we in a contractual relationship with our Creator or a covenantal relationship with our Creator?

 

[face2face]

The point of difference is grace v works based theology. Her repeated contention is the new heart is a quid pro quo reward for what she calls "AFTER lay down their natural blood lives for Belief IN the Lord God Almighty."

Ezekiel 36:26 is not a quid pro quo contract but an unconditional covenant. God will give us a new heart without conditions, based on his glory, his unmerited favor and plan for us in a new covenant.

Are we in a contractual relationship with our Creator or a covenantal relationship with our Creator?

Wrangler, if I can chime in...I see a few things going on in Ezekiel 36:26.

Firstly, have you both considered these passages:

I (God) will give them (Israel) an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Eze 11:19;

There is a temptation to find the fulfillment of this "new heart" and "new spirit" exclusively in Christian conversion in this age, which I believe should be resisted! The NT conversion is only a preview of the massive spiritual revival God has in store for all of true Israel in the near future. (We must preface the context first, before we force current day meaning on this text)

There are many prophecies which speak to "how" God will bring his people (refined) into the New Covenant.

For Israel the "new covenant" will be established upon the basis of faith, by which the sins of the nation "will be cast into the depths of the
sea" as per Mic. 7:19. The present regathering of the nation is but a token of that yet to come, and is preliminary to the great restoration prophesied by Peter (Acts 3:19).

But they will need to hear Ezek 18:31 again and again if they are to enter!

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? Ezek 18:31

They will be forced to answer this question in the near future!

2 Co 3:3-6 applies also...

3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

To answer your question we are in a covenantal relationship with God. When you say "unconditional covenant"; what do you mean?

1. The covenant is on the basis of faith, without the true faith, no one can take part in the New Covenant, so its conditional (care needed here!). For a person, or a nation to "get" a new heart and a new spirit - the condition is clear - they must seek it and never stop seeking it. And once its obtained it can still be lost through unbelief.
2. Care must also be taken when speaking about Grace vs Works, as both are interwoven beautifully together by Christ, Peter and James. It's foolishness to speak of Faith without works, as it is, works without faith.

Let us all be convinced in our own minds what the Spirit Word has revealed to us.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

There is a temptation to find the fulfillment of this "new heart" and "new spirit" exclusively in Christian conversion in this age, which I believe should be resisted!

Great point and I agree. My point was never that the new covenant occurred in Ezekiel's time. Rather, that the heart replacement was to be done without strings attached.

To answer your question we are in a covenantal relationship with God. When you say "unconditional covenant"; what do you mean?

1. The covenant is on the basis of faith, without the true faith, no one can take part in the New Covenant, so its conditional (care needed here!). For a person, or a nation to "get" a new heart and a new spirit - the condition is clear - they must seek it and never stop seeking it. And once its obtained it can still be lost through unbelief.

By "unconditional covenant" I mean in contrast to a quid pro quo contract. A covenant means both parties will do their part INDEPENDENT of the other side sticking to the covenant agreement. My church holds this as foundational to understanding our relationship with God.

Our overly legalistic society cannot comprehend a relationship that is not contractual.

1. The covenant is on the basis of faith, without the true faith, no one can take part in the New Covenant, so its conditional (care needed here!). For a person, or a nation to "get" a new heart and a new spirit - the condition is clear - they must seek it and never stop seeking it. And once its obtained it can still be lost through unbelief.

I am sticking to the language of Scripture and parsing us "getting a new heart" with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In other words, us Christians have both. Non-Christians still have a new heart even though they are not sealed by the Holy Spirit.

While I do believe based on Scripture that salvation can be lost, us having a new heart - where our conscience convicts us - is absolute and not subject to exchange to the pre-Ezekiel type. Consider it spiritual evolution of the human condition, as God planned it.

I believe our soul retains karma. Just like our body retains our history of over-eating, our soul retains a record of our own conscious convicting us. The revelation of this is integral to Judgement Day. That is, Jesus' judgment of us is not arbitrary or mysterious. Rather, our guilt contained in our own new heart is undeniable for all to see - just as a person who is 30 pounds over weight is evident for all to see.

 

[Taken]

Lake Superior. On what we call the north shore in Minnesota. (it's the western shore of Superior)
I'm standing on the beach at Split Rock Lighthouse. I'm holding a stone that I found.
Looked to be an oval shaped stone that broke in half in the center.

Interesting rock! Also familiar with petosky rock, that is think is pretty exclusive to the G-Lakes beaches. Do you have the northern MinnesOta Scandinavian (of sorts) accent?

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Modern view you say

Yes, a modern view. Look at the near context of what you quoted.
(without reference, AS USUAL !!!!)

The modern translations read "sexual immorality" and "adultery".
See bold below.

Notice the KJV uses two different words, (as does the NT Greek)
The word "fornication" carries a completely different meaning in their culture.
It refers to sex before marriage.

- Why would Jesus allow divorce of a wife due to sex before marriage?
- Why does modern culture allow divorce of a wife due to sex after marriage?
(not what Jesus said)

Matthew 19:8-9 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery:
and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you do for a living?

I fabricate machines, while you fabricate lies and deception. - LOL

 

[Taken]

The point of difference is grace v works based theology. Her repeated contention is the new heart is a quid pro quo reward for what she calls "AFTER lay down their natural blood lives for Belief IN the Lord God Almighty."

Ezekiel 36:26 is not a quid pro quo contract but an unconditional covenant. God will give us a new heart without conditions, based on his glory, his unmerited favor and plan for us in a new covenant.

Are we in a contractual relationship with our Creator or a covenantal relationship with our Creator?

To presume the GRACE of God has NO Conditions to Receive His Offerings is in ERROR.

Gods GRACE is His OFFERINGS to the undeserving, corrupt, fallen mankind.

Scripture is FULL of “IF - THEN” Offerings to mankind. The “IF” IS the Required “condition”, “agreement” to Receive His Offerings.

Belief is A required WORKS, for salvation.
Service is WHAT a man does with his WORKS of Belief.

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Some men BELIEVE, and thereafter DO no Service unto the Lord God.

Some men BELIEVE, and thereafter SERVE the Lord God, by their Testimony of LAYING DOWN their bodily Life FOR the Lord God.

Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is yourreasonable service.


Grace of God is Gods undeserved Offerings unto mankind.

Belief IS a Works of a man, unto a mans Soul Salvation.

Laying down ones Living Bodily Life FOR the Lord God IS a Service unto the Lord God and unto the mans Spirit being Quickened at that time.

 

[St. SteVen]

Interesting rock! Also familiar with petosky rock, that is think is pretty exclusive to the G-Lakes beaches.

Do you have the northern MinnesOta Scandinavian (of sorts) accent?

"Yah shure, ya betcha." - LOL
No, not really. I do say, "Nope." a lot.
(with a sharp cut-off)

My grandfather emigrated from Sweden.
He had the Scandinavian accent.
As do many older folks around here.

I'm a Twin Cities urbanite.
So, not much Northern MN in me.
I do keep a short beard though.
Salt and pepper. The salt is winning.

Love to visit though.
Makes a nice day trip.
Just a two hour drive to the great expanse.
Something special about visiting that huge body of water.

 

[face2face]

Great point and I agree. My point was never that the new covenant occurred in Ezekiel's time. Rather, that the heart replacement was to be done without strings attached.

Can you expand on what you mean by no strings?

By "unconditional covenant" I mean in contrast to a quid pro quo contract. A covenant means both parties will do their part INDEPENDENT of the other side sticking to the covenant agreement. My church holds this as foundational to understanding our relationship with God.

Question; in the context of what you have written above how do you view the covenant God made with Abraham? Genesis 15:10-12
Covenant binding till death "Abraham" experienced a figurative death
He was not awake when the covenant was made - God was saying he could not honour its terms only God could.
Also, Jeremiah 34 is another important chapter on his subject.

Our overly legalistic society cannot comprehend a relationship that is not contractual.

True.

I am sticking to the language of Scripture and parsing us "getting a new heart" with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In other words, us Christians have both. Non-Christians still have a new heart even though they are not sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I don't prescribe to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit but rather the engrafting of the Word of God in the mind.

I believe our soul retains karma. Just like our body retains our history of over-eating, our soul retains a record of our own conscious convicting us. The revelation of this is integral to Judgement Day. That is, Jesus' judgment of us is not arbitrary or mysterious. Rather, our guilt contained in our own new heart is undeniable for all to see - just as a person who is 30 pounds over weight is evident for all to see.

I would need to hear you upack this to better understand what you mean by karma. But I agree with the evidence of sin in our new heart as being obvious, although we have an advocate who is with the Father and by his sons blood we can be cleansed should we seek it.

Good repsonse thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

I fabricate machines, while you fabricate lies and deception. - LOL

Actually, I manufacture & fabricate engineered wood products. I showed restaint while you slept!

 

[St. SteVen]

Actually, I manufacture & fabricate engineered wood products. I showed restaint while you slept!

I guess we both work the tools then. Hope you still have all your fingers.

 

[face2face]

I guess we both work the tools then. Hope you still have all your fingers.

I'm a Business Developement Manger for a manufacturing company. I'm on the tools now and then as I like working with timber. Got all my limbs thankfully but not so lucky for one of our employees who lost 4 fingers a few years back. (Sent via mobile phone)

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthew 19:8-9 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery:
and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

@face2face
Two different words in the NT Greek.

​

◄ 4202. porneia ►

​

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance fornication. From porneuo; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry -- fornication.

​

◄ 3429. moichaó ►

​

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance commit adultery. From moichos; (middle voice) to commit adultery -- commit adultery.

 

[St. SteVen]

- Why would Jesus allow divorce of a wife due to sex before marriage?
- Why does modern culture allow divorce of a wife due to sex after marriage?
(not what Jesus said)

@face2face
This is the law Jesus was referring to.
Which is obviously different than our modern standard.
Deuteronomy 22:13-18

 

[Taken]

Yes, a modern view. Look at the near context of what you quoted.
(without reference, AS USUAL !!!!)

The modern translations read "sexual immorality" and "adultery".
See bold below.

Notice the KJV uses two different words, (as does the NT Greek)
The word "fornication" carries a completely different meaning in their culture.
It refers to sex before marriage.

- Why would Jesus allow divorce of a wife due to sex before marriage?
- Why does modern culture allow divorce of a wife due to sex after marriage?
(not what Jesus said)

Matthew 19:8-9 KJV
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts
suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,
and shall marry another, committeth adultery:
and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mankind is imperfect, and IF you follow the ancient history of HOW God taught mankind, little by little, bit by bit, to hear, PRACTICE the concepts of what a man hears and learns.
And “precepts” are a huge part of Gods Teachings, which “precepts” are all about “relationships” among and between mankind.
God set “standards and principles” a guideline of sorts, for a favorable outcome for mankind per HIS precepts. And gave many warnings of it’s difficulty, (particularly Because it would not always be a level playing field), which is to say ONE person may be following Gods Precepts, but yet trying to establish a relationship with another person who has no Intent to consider or follow Gods Precepts.
Thus, enter the LAWS and STATUTES.
A Law can be revealed, broad, an expectation of common knowledge, spoken, an expectation to obey and consequences for failure to obey. A Law can be Fulfilled, Accomplished and no longer necessary to keep fulfilling over and over.
A Statute is more specific and always Written, and Specific (less broad, less leeway to modify or consider circumstances and bend). A Statute remains constant.

Gods Statues, Written, are viewed AS Commands. To understand the requirement of obeying Commands, first requires an Understanding, that A Person First AGREES to submit and obey Statues and the Commands.

God Choose a PEOPLE. They became Called Hebrews. They AGREED to obey Gods Commands….and thus we SEE the list of Gods Statues and Commands Written….and observe the long history of Positive Consequences WHEN they kept their word and obeyed….and observe the long history of Negative Consequences WHEN they failed to keep their word and did not obey.

The Precepts, Laws, Statutes have not changed. What DID change was;
Laws became Fulfilled, ie. Accomplished.
AND…
Gods Offering for men (other than Hebrews), God called Gentiles to enter in Gods “contract, covenant, fold” (whatever term) which simply means, men other than Hebrews and Tribesmen descended from the Hebrews, to enter into an AGREEMENT with God to ALSO obey His Statutes and Commands.

Inanutshell, God has historically taught mankind the step by step process for a fallen human man to become MADE in Gods “Likeness”. A Teaching of God, BECAUSE of Gods Grace, and Desire for His created and made mankind to be WITH Him forever.

The marriage, becoming adjoined as ONE, agreeing, becoming in the same likeness as the one they are joined with, rejecting all others….is the MODEL and PRACTICE between and among mankind IN Preparation for an individual to Have a bonded likeness relationship WITH the Lord God and NO other spirits.

The fornication parallel, is akin to a person dabbling in and with Evil spirits.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Patrick1966]

"Yah shure, ya betcha." - LOL

The movie "Fargo" really had some fun with that!