How do you reconcile "the gates of Hell will NOT prevail" with Satan supposedly taking most of mankind to Hell with him?

[CadyandZoe]

Dear CadyandZoe,


Joe

You earlier agreed with me that all mankind is already condemned. If mankind is condemned, the punishment will most certainly follow.
Punishment is not certain. All of those who repent and believe in Jesus Christ will be saved, just as our Apostle has said.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Notice the contrast between "now" and "then." All unbelievers begin in a state of condemnation. But when an unbeliever repents and believes in Jesus Christ, "Now there is no condemnation."

But since Christ will save all mankind, He will freely give us a new birth prior to our destruction.
Christ will not save all mankind. Remember, Paul said that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The promise is sure for all of Jesus' followers. Not all of mankind is "in Christ"; therefore, not all of mankind will be saved.

You are not understanding the concept of being "born again".
I understand the concept. I don't agree with your interpretation of various passages as I outlined in my previous post.

These are spiritual events which happen "within" a person.
Again, there needs to be an indication within the text itself to suggest that the events represent internal realities.

To understand the spiritual language of Christ, one must be given "eyes that can see". This healing of our spiritual blindness occurs when we receive the Latter Rain. Only the new child of Christ has spiritual understanding. Mankind cannot understand Christ:
I disagree that the Bible is written in a "spiritual" language or that Christ uses "spiritual" words. Jesus often says, "Those who have eyes to see, let them see." And also, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." His meaning depends on the double meaning of "see" and the double meaning of "hear." Everyone has eyes to "see" in the first sense. We all have ocular devices that allow us to make visual contact with the world. Even so, not all who "see" (visually) will "see" in the second sense. That is, not all who see visually will understand what they see.

Likewise, not all who hear with their ears will listen to and understand what they hear.

Again, the Bible is written in ordinary language. Everyone who speaks that language can "hear" what is written. But not all will understand what is written. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to help us read; the Holy Spirit helps us acknowledge the verity of what was said. This is why Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "the spirit of truth."

Your approach is not helpful because it isn't grounded in the text. If one believes that the Bible is written in coded language, then one is subject to mistakes without any way to correct mistakes.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Paul teaches in a "mystery" so that it cannot be understood by mankind. He does not teach in "ordinary human language". The mystery is only revealed to the Elect after they are born again as a child of God.

I disagree. That is not what Paul meant. In your view, Paul relates the manner in which he speaks, which is not his point. Instead, Paul is relating the source of his teaching. Man's wisdom comes from a man; God's wisdom comes from God. And God's wisdom remains secret until he reveals it to man. Paul asserts that God revealed his wisdom to him. What he teaches is God's wisdom, but he teaches it using ordinary language.

Why do you think there are around 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world, all claiming that their version of the truth is correct?
Why does that matter?

Both are contained within a believer up until the point they are converted.
Again, there needs to be an indication within the text itself to suggest that the elements represent internal realities.

One more thing.
I want to weigh in on the passage you previously quoted.

Matthew 3:11

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

John doesn't explain what he means by "Holy Spirit and Fire." And we know from Acts 19 that John's disciples didn't even know there was such a thing as a "holy" spirit. Subsequently, we learn the meaning of being baptized with the Holy Spirit from the book of Acts and the writings of the Apostles.

So what is baptism by fire? Peter helps his readers understand what Jesus meant by "baptism with fire."

1 Peter 1:7

so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;​

Here the apostle speaks about the testing of our faith. He likens our faith to "a perishable gold." What is "perishable" gold? Pure Gold is not perishable at all, which is why mankind searches for it and keeps it in a safe place. "Perishable" Gold has impurities; to remove the impurities, the gold is subjected to fire. Peter likens our faith to gold and the testing of our faith is like the fire that results in a pure, unadulterated faith.

The lake of fire is no such place of testing. Items placed there never return.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Dear CadyandZoe,

The parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

Matthew 13:24-30 & 36-40

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

This parable is one of the "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables which start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the Pathway to Salvation.

Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:

Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to a person the first time, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road). This is when Christ plants His seed within them. This seed is also called the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13-14) and is the earnest amount of an Elect believer’s inheritance. When the seed grows into wheat, it will be ready for the harvest.

However, at the time Christ plants His seed within a person, Christ will leave them carnally minded & spiritually blind. As a result, they will not be able to understand the truth of God’s Word (Mark 8:21-25). Christ, the Word of God, will remain veiled from their understanding.

Soon after a believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan will also come to them. When he comes, he will come to them at night (represents their time of spiritual blindness) and will likewise plant his seed within them (spirit of anti-Christ). This event will result in the Abomination of Desolation within the believer (God’s Temple). When Satan’s seed grows into a Tare (Man of Sin), it will be ready for the judgment of Christ (burned by fire).

As a result of both the child of God (Wheat) and the child of the Devil (Tare) living within a believer, the believer will begin mixing faith (what a child of God walks by) with works (what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture of faith and works will cause the believer to fall away because they cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24).

Note: Mixing faith with works is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).

After an Elect believer has fallen away from faith alone, they cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Their only hope for salvation is for Christ to come to them a second time. Christ will do so when the Wheat is ready to be harvested. This time of the harvest is called the Second Coming of Christ when Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the same event that the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul experienced after being blind and unable to eat or drink for three days in Damascus. This event is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

When Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain, the believer’s spiritual blindness will be immediately healed. Now, for the first time, the Elect believer will be able to understand the truth of God’s Word. From the new knowledge that they received at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Man of Sin will be revealed to them and quickly judged. This judgment is called the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign. From this judgment, the Man of Sin will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance (2Thes 2:8). This will complete the conversion event.

Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the Apostles are interconnected and they teach on the pathway that leads to salvation. These teachings are commonly called End-time Prophecies by the church. However, the church greatly misunderstands the truth that these prophecies are teaching. These prophecies are NOT teaching about future coming world events which are said to come at the end of this age.

The End-time Prophecies are teaching on how and when the “ends of the ages” come upon the Elect:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Also, the teachings on the Pathway to Salvation are taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there". The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares is no exception.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The Pathway to Salvation is a long and difficult journey. It starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is called out from the world. But because the new believer’s spiritual blindness is not healed by Christ at that time, Satan is able to easily deceive them. From Satan’s deceptions, the believer will fall away and will lose their salvation.

Every called out believer will unknowingly eat Satan’s leavened bread (Mat 13:33) shortly after they enter the church. However, if the believer is one of Christ's First Fruits (the Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that time, they will be born again and judged. In other words, the old vessel (child of the Devil) will be destroyed and the new vessel (child of God), which “seemed good to the potter to make”, will be created:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Joe

Earlier, I suggested that the correct interpretation comes from within the text itself. In this rare case, Jesus explains the parable.

In your view, the field represents "the inner man."
He tells us that the field represents "the world."
For this reason, I reject the "inner man" theory of the parable.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

DearCadyandZoe,

You quoted:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Those who are "in Christ" have been made into a new creation and are no longer under the Law. There is no condemnation for the new child of God who has never sinned. However, mankind all starts off life in a sinful spiritual condition and because of such, all mankind is "condemned already". The old vessel will not escape judgment.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Pet 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment is a necessary component of becoming a child of God. The Elect are judged first before they die, then the remainder of mankind will be judged in the final age.

Revelation chapter 19 teaches the judgment of the Elect and that judgment ends with destruction in the Lake of Fire.

You must remember that Christ teaches His truth "here a little and there a little". Those bits and pieces must be assembled to understand the whole truth of a matter.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

You cannot take just one verse of scripture and make assumptions about it that fit your preexisting beliefs. You must assemble all the scripture that teaches on the matter and then come to an understanding.

You said:
But since Christ will save all mankind, He will freely give us a new birth prior to our destruction.
Christ will not save all mankind. Remember, Paul said that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The promise is sure for all of Jesus' followers. Not all of mankind is "in Christ"; therefore, not all of mankind will be saved.

Why don't you believe these verses?

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Mankind's salvation happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. That is why Christ came into the world. Why do you believe that Christ will fail to accomplish the mission His Father gave Him? It would be a sin for Christ to "miss the mark" of saving all mankind. The "restitution of all things" will certainly take place.

The Feast of Weeks (First Fruits) is a type that foreshadows the salvation of the Elect who are saved in this age. They are called the First Fruits:

James 1:18 According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of his creatures.

The Feast of ingathering (Tabernacles) is a type that foreshadows the great harvest of mankind at the end of the final age.

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

The teaching of the apostate church which says that Christ will only harvest the First Fruits and will leave the main harvest to rot in the field is a lie from Satan. Christ will bring in the full harvest of mankind just as His Father sent Him to do. Nothing can stop him:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You said:
To understand the spiritual language of Christ, one must be given "eyes that can see". This healing of our spiritual blindness occurs when we receive the Latter Rain. Only the new child of Christ has spiritual understanding. Mankind cannot understand Christ:
I disagree that the Bible is written in a "spiritual" language or that Christ uses "spiritual" words. Jesus often says, "Those who have eyes to see, let them see." And also, "Those who have ears to hear, let them hear." His meaning depends on the double meaning of "see" and the double meaning of "hear." Everyone has eyes to "see" in the first sense. We all have ocular devices that allow us to make visual contact with the world. Even so, not all who "see" (visually) will "see" in the second sense. That is, not all who see visually will understand what they see.

Christ said that he speaks in words that are "spirit" (John 6:63). Spirit words have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

To understand the meanings of Christ's spirit words, we must compare "spiritual things with spiritual things". Remember the example I presented you on the spiritual word "sword". In Christ's spiritual language, a sword represents the Word of God. It is not a steel bladed weapon as man's wisdom teaches. Fire is another spirit word. It means the judgment of Christ.

As for your comments on "eyes that can see", you are right when you said "not all who "see" (visually) will "see" in the second sense". The "second sense" as you call it is to "see" spiritually. The "first sense" is to "see" carnally. Paul made this statement to his church who had only received the Early Rain and were still spiritually blind:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Paul's spiritually blind church could not see spiritually nor could they even understand the milk of the Word. They could only see carnally as you are seeing. This is true of all "called out" Christians in the church because they have not yet received the Latter Rain which heals their spiritual blindness.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You asked:
Why do you think there are around 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world, all claiming that their version of the truth is correct?
Why does that matter?

Without the truth, a believer cannot be "sanctified":

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

There is only one truth which is taught in scripture. The church cannot "see" that truth because they are places where the blind lead the blind. Everyone who follows their teachings will "fall into a ditch":

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Paul said this:

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The Early Rain is what calls a person into the church. They are "many" and they are spiritually blind. They are not a "perfect man" who is no longer blown around by every wind of doctrine and by the sleight of men. The "perfect man" is one who has received both the Early and Latter Rain. They have "eyes that can see". And since they do, it is they who have the work of "edifying the body of Christ". That is what this scripture is teaching:

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The Elect feed those who hunger for truth (meat). They give drink to those who thirst for righteousness. They cloth the naked in white raiment. They visit the sick (the lost) and those who are still in bondage to sin. This is the work of the Elect and it is the work that I do on this forum. But until Christ comes to a "called out" believer and gives them "ears that can hear", my words will fall on deaf ears. But a "few" have been given "ears that can hear" and it is they who I can edify through meat and drink.

For the reasons I stated above, that is why the unity of the truth matters.

As for your comments on 1Pet 1:7. Peter is speaking of this judgment:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

This verse refers to the chastising judgment of Christ upon converted believers for the purpose of purifying them. This is what this verse is also teaching:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. He decreases as Christ increases within a converted believer. This process happens by Christ's chastising judgment within a believer.

The judgment of the Lake of Fire is for the purpose of conversion. Conversion occurs quickly and it removes the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (carnal nature) from within the believer. They are both removed from the believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for their destruction. After they are removed, the believer will only have the Holy Spirit and the new spiritual nature (New Earth) that it gives them.

This scripture below presents both aspects of the judgment of Christ upon a believer:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 20 is the Lake of Fire judgment for the purpose of conversion. Verse 21 is the chastising judgment of Christ which happens as a converted believer receives the truth of God's Word (Sword). This is a slow process. It is Christ's sword (God's Word) that chastises and purifies a converted believer.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Earlier, I suggested that the correct interpretation comes from within the text itself. In this rare case, Jesus explains the parable.

In your view, the field represents "the inner man."
He tells us that the field represents "the world."
For this reason, I reject the "inner man" theory of the parable.

Dear CadyandZoe,

You are understanding the spirit words of Christ carnally and outwardly. Spirit words can only be understood spiritually and inwardly.

The Old Covenant is physical and outward and that is why carnal mankind can understand the Law. But the New Covenant is different. It is spiritual and inward. To understand it, one must have "eyes that can see" spiritually. It's teachings apply to the inward man and not the outward man as the Old Covenant does.

Christ said this:

Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The Old Covenant can only make mankind appear clean on the outside. The New Covenant will make mankind clean on the inside so that the outside can be truly clean.

For that reason, the work and teachings of the New Covenant apply "within" (spiritually) mankind. They do not apply carnally and outwardly as does the Old Covenant.

To understand the truth, a person must rightly divide the Word by the Old Covenant and the New Covenant as I explained above.

As for your comment on the parable; Christ explains the parable to the disciples with another parable. He does this for this purpose:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The Nation of Israel was "called out from the world". Gentiles who are given the Early Rain are likewise "called out from the world". Both called out groups are spiritually blind and are not able to understand and receive the truth taught by the parables. Christ teaches in this manner so that those who are "called out" with fall backward and be broken" (Isa 28:9-12). This is a portion of the pathway the Elect must travel through to reach their salvation. Salvation comes to them when Christ comes to them a second time and gives them the Latter Rain. Only after they receive the Latter Rain will the teachings of the parables open up to their understanding.

Joe

 

[CadyandZoe]

DearCadyandZoe,
The old vessel will not escape judgment.

I disagree with your view that punishment involves an exchange of vessels. The Bible teaches that people, not vessels, are punished or forgiven. If punishment were merely an exchange of vessels, there would be no reason for forgiveness.

Your quote from 1Peter defeats your argument because Peter speaks about a divergent fate for humanity in the end. One fate awaits those who reside in the house of God, while another fate awaits those who did not obey the gospel of God.

Revelation chapter 19 teaches the judgment of the Elect and that judgment ends with destruction in the Lake of Fire.

On the contrary, the righteous show up with while clothing, indicating that they are not going to be judged.

Why don't you believe these verses?

I do believe them. Why would you think otherwise?

It would be a sin for Christ to "miss the mark" of saving all mankind.

Scripture does not teach that Christ will save all mankind.

Christ said that he speaks in words that are "spirit" (John 6:63).

He said that his words are "spirit" and "life." This is a metaphor. He isn't saying that his words are literally spirit. And he is not saying that his words are coded language. He is speaking ordinary human language.

To understand those the meanings of Christ's spirit words, we must compare "spiritual things with spiritual things".

I told you, Paul isn't talking about esoteric language. Paul isn't talking about the mode, manner, or method of speech. He is talking about the source of the message. When Paul uses the term "spiritual" he often means "supernatural". The wisdom of God comes through supernatural means, not ordinary means. But the message is spoken in ordinary human language.

 

[lforrest]

I have heard, and it seems to me compelling that the gates of hell are literally gates to hell. And from these issue demonic influence upon the world that advances the satanic agenda.

That they will not prevail, could simply mean the demonic influences will be ineffectual against the true Church.

If you see your Church conforming to the pattern of this world beware, as it is illegitimate.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Without the truth, a believer cannot be "sanctified":

How does this answer the question? Why does it matter?

The church cannot "see" that truth because they are places where the blind lead the blind.

This doesn't matter in the least. Don't underestimate the power of God. If God wants to save me, he will find a way for me to hear the truth.

For the reasons I stated above, that is why the unity of the truth matters.

I disagree. Disunity is not a cause; disunity is a symptom.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man.

Typology is a gimmick, not helpful, and without merit. Drop typology; it is leading you astray.

The judgment of the Lake of Fire is for the purpose of conversion.

So you say without scriptural support.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does that not seem to be a massive contradiction?

@St. SteVen
@FaithWillDo

A gate is a defensive weapon.

To say the gates of hell will not prevail is to say these gates will not prevent Gods church from going into satans territory and rescuing people inside the gates.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Dear CadyandZoe,

You are understanding the spirit words of Christ carnally and outwardly.

Just as I suspected. Where did you get your magic decoder ring? Out of a cereal box? If you are the only one who can understand the Bible, given that YOU know the secret code, why are you trying to persuade me by using the Bible? [They should teach logic in school.]

You defeat your own argument. Either the Bible is written in ordinary language, which is profitable for reproof and etc. or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

The Old Covenant can only make mankind appear clean on the outside. The New Covenant will make mankind clean on the inside so that the outside can be truly clean.

For that reason, the work and teachings of the New Covenant apply "within" (spiritually) mankind. They do not apply carnally and outwardly as does the Old Covenant.

Of course, but the message is preached and written in ordinary human language, otherwise, no one would be able to internalize it.

As for your comment on the parable; Christ explains the parable to the disciples with another parable.

No. I'm not going to play this game. Jesus used the term "world". Deal with that first. Don't jump to a new passage. Contrary to your claim that the field represents the inner aspect of a person; Jesus explicitly said that the field represents the world. Deal with it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

A gate is a defensive weapon.

To say the gates of hell will not prevail is to say these gates will not prevent Gods church from going into satans territory and rescuing people inside the gates.

Makes sense.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I disagree with your view that punishment involves an exchange of vessels. The Bible teaches that people, not vessels, are punished or forgiven. If punishment were merely an exchange of vessels, there would be no reason for forgiveness.

Dear CadyandZoe,
You said:
I disagree with your view that punishment involves an exchange of vessels. The Bible teaches that people, not vessels, are punished or forgiven. If punishment were merely an exchange of vessels, there would be no reason for forgiveness.

The word "vessel" is a spiritual symbol. It represents mankind's spirit. From what you said, I don't know what you believe the word vessel means. Some believe it refers to our physical body but that is incorrect. The physical body is not mankind's problem. Mankind's spirit is our problem. Mankind's vessel is stated to be marred and that flaw is its weakness. Since mankind's spirit is weak, our flesh governs us and causes us to become carnally minded.

Christ came in the same physical body that mankind was given. But Christ was spiritually different. He had the "full measure" of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is strong and powerful and it never allowed Christ to become carnally minded. And since it is the carnal mind that causes a person to sin, Christ never sinned.

You said:
Revelation chapter 19 teaches the judgment of the Elect and that judgment ends with destruction in the Lake of Fire.
On the contrary, the righteous show up with white clothing, indicating that they are not going to be judged.

As I have been saying, the new child of God (who is the one riding a horse) in not judged. In chapter 19, the child of God was just born at the Marriage of the Lamb. The spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot (carnal nature) are the ones who are judged and destroyed. The remaining carnal mind of the believer is slowly judged over time by the chastisement of Christ and as the converted believer receives the truth of God's Word (Christ).

Both the child of God and the child of the devil are contained within ONE believer. They are not literally two separate people as you are understanding Revelation chapter 19. You are understanding that chapter carnally and not spiritually.

Adam and Eve became "one flesh". Adam is the head and the head contains the mind. Eve represents the carnal spiritual nature of Adam. It is through mankind's carnality that Satan deceives mankind. For that reason, Satan came to Eve in the Garden and deceived her. And because Adam wanted to please his wife (his carnal nature), Adam ate of the fruit as well.

1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

What I explained above is why Paul forbade women to teach:

1Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

It is mankind's carnal spiritual nature that is in the transgression and that is why it will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It will then be replaced by the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. This is what the spiritual symbol "vessel" represents. But since Adam represents the mind which was not in transgression, it will not be destroyed. If it were to be destroyed, we would lose our individual identity. For that reason, our mind will be "transformed" into the mind of Christ.

Rom 2:12 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Now, concerning your statement on the verses which state that Christ will save all mankind, you said "I do believe them. Why would you think otherwise?"

I believe otherwise because you previously made this statement: "Christ will not save all mankind".

And now you are saying "Scripture does not teach that Christ will save all mankind."

You are denying the truth of this scripture:

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The same all who died "in Adam" is the same all who will be made alive "in Christ". Who could that possibly leave out? How would scripture have to state it for you to believe that Christ will save everyone? Where is your faith?

You said:
Christ said that he speaks in words that are "spirit" (John 6:63).
He said that his words are "spirit" and "life." This is a metaphor. He isn't saying that his words are literally spirit. And he is not saying that his words are coded language. He is speaking ordinary human language.

So you believe that the spirit words of Christ are nothing more than "ordinary human language"?

Christ's spirit words are what He uses in His "another language" mentioned in Isa 28:11.

Isa 28:11 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people.

When Christ came in the flesh, He spoke Hebrew. Is this verse above not true then? Absolutely not. Christ's spiritual language utilizes the Hebrew language to teach His truth. But the Hebrew words Christ spoke were actually "spirit" words which carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul says that he also teaches with Christ's spiritual language. And Paul said that to understand Christ's spirit words, we must "compare spiritual things (spirit words) with spiritual. In other words, we must look to scripture and see how those same spirit words are used elsewhere. Then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a believer who has "eyes that can see" can discern their true meaning.

The spirit word "sword" used in Mat 26:52 is understood when we compare its usage in these verses:

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

This example on the meaning of the spirit word "sword" is one of the easiest in scripture. Most spirit words are much more difficult to discern their true meanings.

I just read your last post but I will not respond to it. It doesn't seem that I am able to help you at this time. It is probably a good time to end our discussion.

If you have any specific questions though, I will respond to them. Otherwise, thanks for the discussion.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Does that not seem to be a massive contradiction?

@St. SteVen
@FaithWillDo

Not at all. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church! And they haven't nor ever will.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The it is the church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I just read your last post but I will not respond to it. It doesn't seem that I am able to help you at this time. It is probably a good time to end our discussion.

If you have any specific questions though, I will respond to them. Otherwise, thanks for the discussion.

Joe

Be careful of your exegetical method.

 

[Stumpmaster]

He tells us that the field represents "the world."

Exactly The world is our mission field.

Satan snatches the Word of God away from Wayside hearers before it can take root because he knows it exposes him and his plans to corrupt, deceive, and exploit.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Well, one cannot become a believer unless God permits them to become a believer.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".

Is it your belief that God precludes most people from becoming a believer and that he then punishes them for eternity because they didn't become a believer?

Only God knows how many people will be in heaven or in hell.

No I believe that God knows those whose nature means they will never accept God's offer of mercy.
I also believe that God's justice and mercy is perfect and combined with his perfect knowledge, no one will have grounds to complaine or object to his justice.

 

[St. SteVen]

Only God knows how many people will be in heaven or in hell.

No I believe that God knows those whose nature means they will never accept God's offer of mercy.
I also believe that God's justice and mercy is perfect and combined with his perfect knowledge, no one will have grounds to complaine or object to his justice.

I don't think salvation is according to the will of humankind.

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Windmill Charge]

I don't think salvation is according to the will of humankind.

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

The Will of Man - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby At this point I wish to share some searching and enlightening words penned by a servant of the Lord more than sixty-five years ago. "Concerning the nature and the power of man's will, the greatest confusion prevails...

www.christianityboard.com

I have not said that.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have not said that.

Sorry that I misunderstood you.
Please clarify, if you like. Thanks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

the fact that even one person choses to recieve christ shows the gates of hell has not prevailed to keep Gods word from, getting out