Beautifully said as always and, yes, Jesus continues to refine and save sinners even AFTER their bodily deaths. He must. He must rule until all of the lost sheep are saved!
How do you reconcile "the gates of Hell will NOT prevail" with Satan supposedly taking most of mankind to Hell with him?
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Beautifully said as always and, yes, Jesus continues to refine and save sinners even AFTER their bodily deaths. He must. He must rule until all of the lost sheep are saved!
Because he's a sadist and gets off by making helpless creatures suffer?
Wow! Some people will wish they had never touched a keyboard.
Matthew 12
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
There are other "proper" definitions of "hell," not just one. Although "death" is one possible meaning, the term hell also indicates Gehenna, named after the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, which was constantly filled with the city's waste, which was then burnt.
Please be sure to note Jesus' comparison in the following verse.
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The Lord draws a comparison between mankind and God in terms of whom we should fear based on who can do the most damage. All mankind can do is kill my body. (death) But God can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Gehenna: eternal damnation)
The fires of Gehenna are figurative of eternal, permanent destruction. Just as anything thrown into the fires of Gehenna is permanently lost, so also is anyone whom God destroys.
The following statement defeats Universalism:
Matthew 23:33
33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? (Gehenna: permanent destruction)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Because they deserve it.
They are not victims.
Try to understand that God is not a man.
I was obviously being rhetorical to demonstrate the absurdity of YOUR belief that God is an unforgiving Sadist.
In any event, you obviously disagree that Jesus's statement that the gates of Hell will not prevail. You believe that Satan is greater than God. You view God as an incapable, inept, bumbling, unforgiving, sadistic, idiot who cannot overcome Satan's acts.
You're not alone. That is the mainstream view of Christians.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Only for those who accept His robe of righteousness, like in the time of Noah, only some will believe and be saved..
Dear CadyandZoe,
Don't you know that all mankind is "condemned already" and will be judged & destroyed in the Lake of Fire?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is mankind's true spiritual condition:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
In this carnal spiritual condition, mankind cannot believe in Christ. For that reason, Christ must come to mankind first and give us the Holy Spirit. After a person has the Spirit and is "born again", the new child of God will believe in Christ. Mankind will never believe in Him and will be destroyed because of it.
After a person is given the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit, judgment will fall on the person to destroy their old spiritual nature. This destruction symbolically happens in the "Lake of Fire". The whole spiritual process which saves a person is called conversion.
Conversion is what these verses below teach:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.
Christ will baptize all mankind with the Holy Spirt and then with Fire. The Holy Spirit will create the new child of God (the new vessel). The baptism of Fire (judgment in the Lake of Fire) will destroy the child of the devil (our old vessel). This is the spiritual process by which Christ will save all mankind.
In this age, Christ is ONLY coming to and saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are considered blessed because they will be saved first and will have life during the ages. They are called the Elect. However, they are only the First Fruits of Christ harvest of mankind - they are not His full harvest.
In the final age, the rest of mankind will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven. To start their conversion process, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment. But before they are spiritually destroyed by that judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and will give them the Spirit just as He did for the Elect in this age.
This verse applies:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ's judgment is not like mankind's judgment. Christ will never omit the weightier matters of the law. Justice is served by the destruction of the old vessel which is sinful. Mercy and faith are served by the birth of the new child of God who will believe in Christ and who will never sin.
After the last person in the final age is converted, this verse will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Joe
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do. But thank-you for reminding me.
Agreed.
I don't see where this is taught.
I disagree that the verses you quoted speak about our conversion experience, except for Matthew 3:11
Not all of mankind.
The Lake of Fire is symbolic of destruction, not rebirth.
I don't agree. According to 1Corinthians 15, Christ himself is the firstfruits.
The Lake of Fire represents a place of destruction, not a place of redemption or rehabilitation.
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Hebrews 9:27-28
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Some eagerly await him; others don't. The promise is true for those who do await him. For those who don't -- the second death.
Did you notice? There is only one mediator between God and Man. Jesus Christ. And Jesus will grant life in the coming age to whomever he desires. He tells us that salvation will be offered to those who treat Jesus well, but damnation to those who don't treat Jesus well. And he says,
Matthew 25:40
The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Today is the day of salvation. Repent and make peace with God while it is still called "Today."
Hello Patrick,
From what I understand there is 4 or 5 - defintions of saved.
Saved from physical dieases - such as you see Jesus healing, or the Apostles.
Saved from sin - being set free from sin.
Saved from the Wrath of God - which was coming upon them - which relate from being saved from death of that desturction.
Saved from Satan, and his angels.
Then there is a 5th saved which indicates
Saved to - the Kingdom of Heaven.
Thanks. It's my understanding that faithfull Christians are saved from death (straight to Heaven), judgment, condemnation, and a visit to the Lake of Fire.
However, although some or many will have to experience those things, in the end, ALL will be saved by Jesus, the good shepherd who doesn't stop searching until ALL have been saved. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Nicely done. Technically there is one more. It has to do with Jesus' role as the "Soter." [Pronounced "sew" + "Tare"}
Roman Generals were known as the Soter [Savior] of the kingdoms they conquered. The General protecting the country against enemy attack is called the Soter [Sometimes called the deliverer.] The Bible refers to Jesus as the Soter -- The deliverer of God's people when the subject matter is his role as the one who will free Israel from her enemies. Consider the opening chapter of Luke for instance.
Luke mentions this in his Gospel, recording the benediction of Zacharias. Here is part of it:
Luke 1
68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of David His servant—
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—
71 Salvation from our enemies,
And from the hand of all who hate us;
72 To show mercy toward our fathers,
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,
74 To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.
Zacharias isn't talking about the soul's salvation in this context; Rather, he is talking about being rescued [delivered] from enemies. Without question, Jesus is the savior of our souls. But he is also the Soter of Israel, who will deliver her from her enemies.
The Bible also refers to God the Father himself as the Soter.
This usage is found in 1Timothy 2:3. I leave you with my Bible's footnote.
1 Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God our Savior: [Soter]
Footnote:
3. The directive that Paul serve as an apostolos is described as coming from “God, our Soter.” The
Greek word soter denotes a heroic individual who has attained his hero status by rescuing a people
from some danger, threat, or oppression. [Soter was a favorite title of the Roman Caesars.] To call
God our Soter, therefore, is to identify him as the heroic champion who delivered us from a fate that
threatened us. Through Messiah Jesus, God has arranged to rescue those who belong to him from
being justly destroyed by God’s wrath at the final judgment. Hence, in view of this rescue from death
and destruction that awaits us, God is our Deliverer (our Soter).
So in addition to the definitions you mentioned, we can add one more based on the information above.
That is a LIE! That is not my belief!
Another LIE! But since you believe Satan's lie that there is no eternal Hell fire, you can tell all the lies you want.
Revelation 21:8
All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Your problem is not with Christians. Your BIG problem is with God of the Bible. Even your beloved YLT says you're wrong.
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Dear CadyandZoe,
There is much I could present to you in response to your disagreements but it would require many posts. I will respond to some of what you stated though.
To begin, I will respond to your final comment (quoted below) since it contradicts what you said at the start of your post.
You said:
He tells us that salvation will be offered to those who treat Jesus well, but damnation to those who don't treat Jesus well. And he says,
Matthew 25:40
The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Today is the day of salvation. Repent and make peace with God while it is still called "Today."
You earlier agreed that mankind is "condemned already" and that mankind cannot know God or will even seek Him out. Since this is true, how does any person "treat Jesus well"? And then you say that those who don't treat Jesus well will find "damnation". Can you see the contradiction you have?
None of mankind will treat Jesus well and they never will. It is only the child of God who will treat Jesus well. To be converted into a child of God in this age, a person must first be chosen from the foundation of the world for that blessing - and that blessing includes being damned in the Lake of Fire (the baptism of Fire) so that only the new vessel remains.
As for "today is the day of salvation", it should read "today is a day of salvation".
Here is the full scripture:
Isa 49:7 This is what the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One, Says to the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers: “Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You.” 8 This is what the LORD says: “At a favorable time I answered You, And on a day of salvation I helped You; And I will watch over You and make You a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to give as inheritances the deserted hereditary lands; 9 Saying to those who are bound, ‘Go free,’ To those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’ They will feed along the roads, And their pasture will be on all bare heights.
This verse is talking about the salvation of the Elect in this age and the work which they will do in the final age.
The Elect are the ones who Christ has "chosen" (end of v. 7). It is the "favorable time" (not the only time) because those saved in this age will not suffer wrath during their time of judgment in the Lake of Fire. The Elect will also receive the reward of reigning with Christ in the final age to "restore the land" (salvation of the lost) and have it as an inheritance. And to the people (those who are bound in sin) of that desolate land, the Elect will say to them "go free". And to those who are in darkness, the Elect will say "show yourselves" (come out from the darkness). After the Elect have done their work, the full harvest of mankind will be complete.
You said:
I disagree that the verses you quoted speak about our conversion experience, except for Matthew 3:11
Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language. In that language, Christ uses spiritual symbols to teach His truth through parables (fictional stories), types (actual events) and analogies.
One of the analogies which teaches "conversion" is the one where Christ slays mankind with a Sword.
Here is one of the verses which I quoted earlier:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Here is how to understand it:
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.
Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:
1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...
From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.
Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):
In light of what I presented above, consider this verse below:
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Like the other verses I’ve presented, this verse above is teaching about the conversion event. And like the other verses, its message is hidden in the spiritual language of Christ. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is referring to the people who have just been converted & saved.
You said:
The Lake of Fire is symbolic of destruction, not rebirth.
The Lake of Fire is symbolic of the judgment of Christ. It is a place of destruction but that destruction is a necessary component of conversion.
Consider these verses::
Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Christ's judgment fills the earth with "goodness" because it redeems mankind.
Here is another verse which teaches the truth of conversion:
Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Christ's judgment will destroy the chaff (old vessel, child of the devil) so that He can gather the wheat (new vessel, child of God) into his garner (Kingdom of Heaven).
That's probably all the space I have available in this post. I would be happy to respond to any of your other disagreements in another post if you would like. Just let me know.
Joe
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Since this is true, how does any person "treat Jesus well"?
Jesus answers this question himself. Those who give one of his followers a drink of water are giving Jesus a drink of water. Those who visit one of his followers in Jail visit Jesus in Jail. And so on.
And then you say that those who don't treat Jesus well will find "damnation". Can you see the contradiction you have?
No, I see no contradiction. In John's gospel, Jesus refers to the sentence of condemnation, not the actual punishment itself. During a trial, the defendant is brought before the judge to see what verdict he finds. Jesus is saying that the verdict has already been decided for those who do not believe him. He isn't saying, however, that the punishment has already been delivered.
None of mankind will treat Jesus well, and they never will.
That isn't true. Matthew 25:46 says that the righteous will go away into eternal life.
and that blessing includes being damned in the Lake of Fire (the baptism of Fire) so that only the new vessel remains.
Incorrect. The Lake of Fire is not a rehabilitation place but a place where people are destroyed.
Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language.
I disagree. The scripture is written in ordinary human language. The words convey ideas in the usual way. Language isn't "spiritual" as you suggest. People are "spiritual" to the degree that the Holy Spirit is at work in an individual. Paul talks about "spiritual" concepts that are difficult to understand for those whom the Spirit is not sanctifying. As he says, he speaks spiritual concepts to spiritual people.
Does Christ mean that if you use a sword to kill others, you must likewise be killed with a sword?
No, not exactly. The Lord is focused on the source of power for life. Those who rely on military power will not gain life in the end, but only death. That's what he means.
The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:
I disagree. That is not what Paul meant to say. Instead, Paul has compared two sources of wisdom: man's wisdom and God's wisdom. And he has compared two types of people: natural and spiritual. The natural man is using human reason alone, without divine aid. The spiritual man also relies on human wisdom, but not exclusively; he also relies on divine revelation, especially with regard to God's will. In order to fully comprehend God's will for mankind, one must rely on what God himself has said.
In this context, "spiritual words" are not words with secret, esoteric meanings. Paul is talking about ordinary words that convey messages that came to humankind through spiritual processes such as prophets or burning bushes etc. Paul, for instance, relates his personal experience with divine revelation.
Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword.
Since the Bible is written in ordinary language, we can fairly evaluate your claim. I disagree with your interpretation because it stands as a non-sequitur in the context. If Jesus were talking about salvation or eternal life in that context then your interpretation would be one of many valid plausible interpretations. But salvation and/or eternal life is NOT the topic in that context.
Like the other verses I’ve presented, this verse above is teaching about the conversion event. And like the other verses, its message is hidden in the spiritual language of Christ. The “many” who are “slain of the Lord” is referring to the people who have just been converted & saved.
No. Again, the topic in that passage is not salvation.
The Lake of Fire is symbolic of the judgment of Christ. It is a place of destruction but that destruction is a necessary component of conversion.
Your interpretation needs to be corrected because, once again, the topic is not repentance, contrition, or trust in the Savior. An essential aspect of salvation is life, But in that context, John refers to it as the second death.
Christ's judgment will destroy the chaff (old vessel, child of the devil) so that He can gather the wheat (new vessel, child of God) into his garner (Kingdom of Heaven).
I disagree with this interpretation also since the interpretation has not correctly captured the essence of the metaphor. The wheat/chaff metaphor relies on the agricultural filtering and selection process. Your interpretation may best be described as the tempering, annealing, or hardening of steel.
When steel is tempered, the steel is subjected to heat and cooling in such a way that the steel takes on a new characteristic. This is analogous to your view that the old vessel is transformed by "heat" to become a new vessel.
By contrast, the wheat/chaff metaphor illustrates a sorting process whereby the chaff is separated from the wheat. Neither the wheat nor the chaff are changed in any way. The farmer desires to gain wheat seed so that he can make bread. The chaff is a waste product, which is eliminated by fire. Jesus is talking about sorting the children of God, from the children of the devil.
Dear CadyandZoe,
You said:
And then you say that those who don't treat Jesus well will find "damnation". Can you see the contradiction you have?
No, I see no contradiction. In John's gospel, Jesus refers to the sentence of condemnation, not the actual punishment itself. During a trial, the defendant is brought before the judge to see what verdict he finds. Jesus is saying that the verdict has already been decided for those who do not believe him. He isn't saying, however, that the punishment has already been delivered.
You earlier agreed with me that all mankind is already condemned. If mankind is condemned, the punishment will most certainly follow. For that reason, mankind must be "born again" prior to the sentence being carried out, otherwise, no one would be saved. But since Christ will save all mankind, He will freely give us a new birth prior to our destruction.
You said:
None of mankind will treat Jesus well, and they never will.
That isn't true. Matthew 25:46 says that the righteous will go away into eternal life.
You are not understanding the concept of being "born again". The old vessel will be destroyed and a new vessel created. The old vessel (mankind) cannot know God nor will it ever seek Him out. The "righteous" who are given the reward of "life during the ages" are the children of God. They are no longer a part of mankind. They are a new creation who dwells in the Kingdom of Heaven.
You said:
and that blessing includes being damned in the Lake of Fire (the baptism of Fire) so that only the new vessel remains.
Incorrect. The Lake of Fire is not a rehabilitation place but a place where people are destroyed.
The Lake of Fire is not for rehabilitation. It is for mankind's destruction. But prior to that destruction, Christ will give us a new birth as a child of God. You are not understanding the concept of being "born again". The old vessel is destroyed and the new vessel is created. Once the new vessel is created, it will be gathered together with Christ in heaven (spiritually speaking).
This scripture applies to a person's moment of salvation:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This matches to what Peter said in Acts 2 when he and the other Jewish Elect were converted on the Day of Pentecost. The new child of God is born and is gathered to heaven. The child of the devil (all mankind) is the one who remains in the Lake of Fire and is destroyed. These are spiritual events which happen "within" a person.
You said:
Scripture is written in Christ's spiritual language.
I disagree. The scripture is written in ordinary human language. The words convey ideas in the usual way. Language isn't "spiritual" as you suggest. People are "spiritual" to the degree that the Holy Spirit is at work in an individual. Paul talks about "spiritual" concepts that are difficult to understand for those whom the Spirit is not sanctifying. As he says, he speaks spiritual concepts to spiritual people.
To understand the spiritual language of Christ, one must be given "eyes that can see". This healing of our spiritual blindness occurs when we receive the Latter Rain. Only the new child of Christ has spiritual understanding. Mankind cannot understand Christ:
This verse applies:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Mankind is carnally minded and cannot understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. Paul "typed" a new believer's spiritual blindness after he received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. The scales did not fall off his eyes until he received the Latter Rain three days later in Damascus.
Also, the story of the blind man in Mark 8:21-25 teaches this truth. It is only after we receive the Latter Rain do we see clearly.
This scripture also applies to spiritual blindness:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Believers who have only the Early Rain are still carnally minded and spiritually blind. Because of such, they cannot be weaned from the milk of the Word. Because they can't understand the "another language" Christ uses in scripture, all called out believers will "fall backward and be broken" (lose their salvation). This happens by the "will" and plan of God. Christ (the Word of God) only appears to a person after they are "born again" as a child of God and that happens when they receive the Latter Rain. As long as a person remains a part of carnal mankind, they will not be able to see (understand) Christ.
Paul says this about his teachings:
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Paul teaches in a "mystery" so that it cannot be understood by mankind. He does not teach in "ordinary human language". The mystery is only revealed to the Elect after they are born again as a child of God.
Why do you think there are around 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world, all claiming that their version of the truth is correct?
The churches of the world are places where the blind lead the blind. There is no unity of truth.
The story of the Tower of Babel is a "type" for this confusion of languages within the church.
You said:
By contrast, the wheat/chaff metaphor illustrates a sorting process whereby the chaff is separated from the wheat. Neither the wheat nor the chaff are changed in any way. The farmer desires to gain wheat seed so that he can make bread. The chaff is a waste product, which is eliminated by fire. Jesus is talking about sorting the children of God, from the children of the devil.
The "wheat" represents the child of God. The chaff (or tares) represents the child of the Devil. Both are contained within a believer up until the point they are converted. The chaff (child of the devil) is burned (represents judgment) and is destroyed. The wheat (child of God) is gathered into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven). This truth is taught in the parable of the wheat and the tares which I will explain in a second post.
Joe
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Dear CadyandZoe,
The parable of the Wheat and the Tares:
Matthew 13:24-30 & 36-40
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
This parable is one of the "the Kingdom of Heaven is like" parables. All parables which start off in this manner are teaching on certain aspects of the Pathway to Salvation.
Here is a short summary of the meaning of the parable:
Mankind is the field in the world. When Christ comes to a person the first time, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road). This is when Christ plants His seed within them. This seed is also called the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:13-14) and is the earnest amount of an Elect believer’s inheritance. When the seed grows into wheat, it will be ready for the harvest.
However, at the time Christ plants His seed within a person, Christ will leave them carnally minded & spiritually blind. As a result, they will not be able to understand the truth of God’s Word (Mark 8:21-25). Christ, the Word of God, will remain veiled from their understanding.
Soon after a believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, Satan will also come to them. When he comes, he will come to them at night (represents their time of spiritual blindness) and will likewise plant his seed within them (spirit of anti-Christ). This event will result in the Abomination of Desolation within the believer (God’s Temple). When Satan’s seed grows into a Tare (Man of Sin), it will be ready for the judgment of Christ (burned by fire).
As a result of both the child of God (Wheat) and the child of the Devil (Tare) living within a believer, the believer will begin mixing faith (what a child of God walks by) with works (what a child of the Devil walks by). This mixture of faith and works will cause the believer to fall away because they cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:24).
Note: Mixing faith with works is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).
After an Elect believer has fallen away from faith alone, they cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). Their only hope for salvation is for Christ to come to them a second time. Christ will do so when the Wheat is ready to be harvested. This time of the harvest is called the Second Coming of Christ when Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the same event that the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul experienced after being blind and unable to eat or drink for three days in Damascus. This event is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When Christ gives an Elect believer the Latter Rain, the believer’s spiritual blindness will be immediately healed. Now, for the first time, the Elect believer will be able to understand the truth of God’s Word. From the new knowledge that they received at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Man of Sin will be revealed to them and quickly judged. This judgment is called the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign. From this judgment, the Man of Sin will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance (2Thes 2:8). This will complete the conversion event.
Most of the teachings of Christ in the Gospels and the teachings of the Apostles are interconnected and they teach on the pathway that leads to salvation. These teachings are commonly called End-time Prophecies by the church. However, the church greatly misunderstands the truth that these prophecies are teaching. These prophecies are NOT teaching about future coming world events which are said to come at the end of this age.
The End-time Prophecies are teaching on how and when the “ends of the ages” come upon the Elect:
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
Also, the teachings on the Pathway to Salvation are taught in bits & pieces with a "little here and a little there". The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares is no exception.
Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
The Pathway to Salvation is a long and difficult journey. It starts with the Early Rain of the Spirit when an unbeliever is called out from the world. But because the new believer’s spiritual blindness is not healed by Christ at that time, Satan is able to easily deceive them. From Satan’s deceptions, the believer will fall away and will lose their salvation.
Every called out believer will unknowingly eat Satan’s leavened bread (Mat 13:33) shortly after they enter the church. However, if the believer is one of Christ's First Fruits (the Elect), Christ will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that time, they will be born again and judged. In other words, the old vessel (child of the Devil) will be destroyed and the new vessel (child of God), which “seemed good to the potter to make”, will be created:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Joe
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