Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Yea, there's no getting through to prideful, hateful, people. That's why I use that handy dandy "ignore" function.
Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?
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teamventure
Well-Known Member
- Sep 6, 2011
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Copied and pasted both responses you are commenting on. The one you are defending is more prideful and hateful. Let's not be a hypocrite.
Seems that those who failed to pass their kindergarten class never learned to play nice with others. - LOL
Goodbye.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Believing in/placing faith in water baptism + other works for salvation does not make you a believer. Genuine believers have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:4; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Parts of the gospel? How many parts are there? (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) You "add works" to the gospel (and so do Roman Catholics) which means you are teaching a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
You don't believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. What happened to water baptism in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4? Also see 1 Corinthians 1:17 and note the 'distinction' between baptism and preaching the gospel.
Sure, I do. I just have no faith in your eisegesis.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief.
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Did Jesus forget to mention it? What is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus never said, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned" so you are not a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The so-called church of Christ has really done a number on you.
You believe in man-made theology which came out of the restoration movement from the 1800's.Read it again. Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
That is crystal clear. Now show me the words "obedient faith" (which is code for faith and works) in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. When James discusses works in regard to Abraham, he mentions the offering up of Isaac on the altar (James 2:21) which did not take place until many years later, AFTER Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. You are a bad Berean, but a good crafty lawyer for the church of Christ.
It's you who totally missed Paul's point Titus. Your "not saved by works of the law of Moses but saved by other works argument" (the same bogus argument that Roman Catholics use) is flawed.
You can't seem to get the law of Moses out of your head and once again, Paul simply said, "apart from works" in Romans 4:6 and not works of the law of Moses and regardless, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works in general from the law of Moses so works in general is still covered. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Now please explain to me Titus, which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind." Period. Deal with it! (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
Just the opposite. You are the master of irony.
Once again, when it comes to the MORAL aspect of the law, you CANNOT DISSECT GOOD WORKS from the law. (Matthew 22:37-40) The law of Moses is not merely circumcision or whatever other cherry-picked works that you wish to limit it to. The law of Moses also includes the 10 commandments.
I believe Paul. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) ALL works in general.
So, you are looking to be saved by the law of works?
CONTINUED...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
The law of Christ is not salvation by works. In Galatians 6:2, we read - Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. That would fall under loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39) which is not excluded from the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18) How many of us have flawlessly loved our neighbor as ourselves? That is not how we are saved. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)
Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. *Nothing here about being justified by the deeds of the law or by the law of Christ, but by the LAW OF FAITH.
Here we go again with the labels. I don't believe in unconditional election, which would mean that God fatalistically determines who will be of His elect and we have no choice in the matter. Looks like I'm not a 5-point Calvinist. Next straw man argument.
So, you are seeking justification by the law? Show me in scripture where Paul says we are justified by the law. Paul said LAW OF FAITH. God's grace is conditional on faith. (Romans 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9) If you did not spend so much time trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith then you might finally come to understand this.
It's you who makes no sense and your crafty lawyer tactics don't work on me. Obeying the commandment to believe in Jesus is not obeying the entire law. You seem to confuse faith with law, just as you confuse faith with works. What a mess!
No, it doesn't. You just don't understand because you don't believe. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)
We are saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone, hence, "apart from works, not by works, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to our works." (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation have obeyed the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ. There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED (John 6:40) and doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) You don't seem to get this at all, which explains your confusion. Refusing to believe the gospel is disobedience. You trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone, so you are in disobedience. (Romans 10:16)
I understand perfectly. Romans 3:27 - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. What other law or works did Paul "add" to faith here? So why are you adding it?
Why would I need to remove the law of faith to believe in Jesus from my gospel according to Paul? You make no sense, and you are simply trying to deceive me and get me to believe in your "works based" false gospel, which I can assure you will NEVER happen.
Paul said the law of faith and not the law of works is how we are justified. I agree with Paul. I'm sorry to see that you are so confused, but if you would just finally come to believe the gospel then the blinders and the confusion will be lifted.
The law of faith is not the law of works.
Eliminates? All works in general simply excludes works righteousness and upholds salvation through faith in Christ alone. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. That's not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.
Straw man argument. You don't even believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) so you have no room to lecture believers about obedience.
So, what happened to baptism in 1 John 3:23-24? I don't see your church of Christ 4 step plan of salvation in 1 John 3:23-24.
Never said otherwise and this is not to be confused with ALL commandments throughout the old and New Testament.
Oh brother. I'm sorry but you just make me laugh! Such a crafty church of Christ lawyer.
I do believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ so I have obeyed God's commandment. 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Praise God! :)
Amen!
Law of faith, not works. (Romans 3:27-28) This is the commandment, not the 10 commandments. If you wish to be saved by works, then you had better keep the WHOLE law. (James 2:10) Good luck with that!
You are a man who does not believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and you have the audacity to call me lost? How ironic.
More hypocrisy and irony.
Where did Paul say that we are justified by the law of Moses or by the law of Christ? Paul said the law of faith. (Romans 3:24-28) It's Titus who misunderstands and remains ignorant of the Scriptures. You are desperately seeking to be saved by works because you want credit. It's called PRIDE!
Titus uses the same bogus argument, "saved by THESE works" and "just not THOSE works" that Roman Catholics use for Romans chapter 4. Both the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ erroneously teach works-righteousness. Paul clearly stated that Abraham was NOT justified (accounted as righteous) by works in Romans 4:2-3 and Abraham was BEFORE the law so works here is not merely limited to specific works of the law of Moses and regardless, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works in general from the law of Moses so works in general is still covered. (Matthew 22:37-40)
CONTINUED...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Faith saves apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:2-6) yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) Learn the difference.
More irony and quite the opposite.
Roman Catholics (who also trust in works for salvation would certainly agree with you here). Now does loving God with all our heart, soul, and mind and our neighbor as ourselves cover all good works? Did Jesus say, "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets?" (Matthew 22:37-40) I rest my case.
Which commandments were listed in Genesis 15:6 (along with believing in the Lord) and it being accounted to Abraham as righteousness? Which commandments did Paul mention (along with his faith was accounted to him for righteousness) in Romans 4:2-3?
How many good works do people accomplish before they are saved? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Your religion has folks doing so-called good works in order to become saved.
Is leaving his home the good works that you are talking about? So Abraham left his home n Genesis 12 and it was accounted to him as righteousness? Not yet. Keep reading all the way up to Genesis 15:6.
The faith of Abraham resulted in producing works, yet he was still justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works. (Romans 4:2-3)
Abraham simply left his home and eventually came to a place in which God brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And Abraham believed in the Lord, and God accounted it to him for righteousness. So, at what point was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? In Genesis 12 or in Genesis 15?
He simply left his home, but that is not the end of the story.
Authentic faith does not remain alone from the presence of works, yet we are still saved by faith apart from the merit of works, just as Abraham was.
There is nothing about justification by works in Romans 4:2-6. Quite the opposite actually.
Straw man argument and basically slander. You are a not a very honest person.
Faith that saves is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Faith is not works. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. That's how it works. Deal with it.
More straw man arguments, slander and twisting the scriptures to support salvation by works. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Too simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but they lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simpe! Too simple!
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
Man puts the limits and conditions on the Atonement.
God does not.
Man wants to add to the Cross their, "perfecting their salvation" as if God's salvation needs their help to get it finished.
Salvation is a gift from God.
Christ on the Cross, is the Gift.
He completed it.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
they can;t get out of Gods way
they have a belief, but they have no faith. Like Israel. who believede in God. but their faith was in their works. so when Christ came to get them to repent of their dead works. they crucified him.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes.
They are like the Christ rejecting Hebrews in Hebrews 10 and Acts 28.
They tasted the heavenly gift.
They came to the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, but they never RECEIVED IT by FAITH and were born again.
KNOWING the Truth , regarding the Cross of Christ is not the same as that next step called BELIEF.
Knowing the Truth of Christ is not FAITH.
BELIEVING in Chrsit is Faith.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Abraham BELIEVED GOD .
Abraham had true faith .
GOD SAID . ABRAHAM BELIEVED what HE SAID and DID WHAT HE SAID .
Exactly .
Did not many jews claim also to BELIEVE IN GOD .
But did they really believe GOD . Unbelief is also tied into NOT BELIEVING what GOD has said .
As we see with the children in the desert .
Not a one of them said aloud . I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD .
BUT they sure didnt BELEIVE , TRULY BELIEVE , TRULY HAVE FAITH IN GOD at all .
See faith , true belief , obediance , love . THEY ARE ONE .
So let us always remember , GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELIEVED . ABRHAM OBEYED , HE DID .
Now that is FAITH in GOD .
SO i have another question to present before us .
WHY are so many , not saying you , falling for a faith , a love , a belief , THAT AINT COMING FROM GOD AT ALL .
Many believe in the wordly version of a god of love . Yet that god is using love , faith , belief
to SUPPORT ITSELF and promote REBELLION against the ONE TRUE GOD of that THAR BIBLE .
now forgive the last part of the english .
LOVE and obediance are not seperate . FAITH and obediance are not seperate .
What a man loves he gonna do and whatever version of god he wants to believe in , HE GONNA BELIEVE IN .
NOw if one truly has REAL FAITH IN GOD . WELL , there faith WOULD HAVE BEEN IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND .
But if ones faith is in another jesus that contradicts the biblical one , BELIEVE ME IT WILL BE SEEN .
For a jesus and a god that honors their sin is gonna be the god and the jesus they sit under and beleive in and obey .
AND IF any jesus honors the lusts of the flesh , sins and calls evil good and good evil , IT AINT JESUS .
IF any god arises in the hearts of men and that version of god or his christ CONTRADICTS the biblical GOD and HIS CHRIST
and all things the apostels later wrote . MY ADVICE IS FLEE AND NEVER LOOK BACK . IT AINT GOD , IT AINT HIS CHRIST
IT AINT HIS SPIRIT . ITS the dragon at work using words like love , like tolerance , like freedom , like unity
Like faith , BUT USING IT in a way that pleases the god of the mirror , aka SELF .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Here lets sum it up real easy so folks like me who might have to take off shoes to count to twenty might understand .Believing in/placing faith in water baptism + other works for salvation does not make you a believer. Genuine believers have placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:4; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Parts of the gospel? How many parts are there? (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) You "add works" to the gospel (and so do Roman Catholics) which means you are teaching a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)
You don't believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. What happened to water baptism in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4? Also see 1 Corinthians 1:17 and note the 'distinction' between baptism and preaching the gospel.
Sure, I do. I just have no faith in your eisegesis.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief.
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Did Jesus forget to mention it? What is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus never said, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned" so you are not a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The so-called church of Christ has really done a number on you.
Read it again. Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
That is crystal clear. Now show me the words "obedient faith" (which is code for faith and works) in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. When James discusses works in regard to Abraham, he mentions the offering up of Isaac on the altar (James 2:21) which did not take place until many years later, AFTER Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. You are a bad Berean, but a good crafty lawyer for the church of Christ.
It's you who totally missed Paul's point Titus. Your "not saved by works of the law of Moses but saved by other works argument" (the same bogus argument that Roman Catholics use) is flawed.
You can't seem to get the law of Moses out of your head and once again, Paul simply said, "apart from works" in Romans 4:6 and not works of the law of Moses and regardless, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works in general from the law of Moses so works in general is still covered. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Now please explain to me Titus, which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). *NOWHERE does the Bible teach we are saved by grace through faith "plus works of any kind." Period. Deal with it! (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
Just the opposite. You are the master of irony.
Once again, when it comes to the MORAL aspect of the law, you CANNOT DISSECT GOOD WORKS from the law. (Matthew 22:37-40) The law of Moses is not merely circumcision or whatever other cherry-picked works that you wish to limit it to. The law of Moses also includes the 10 commandments.
I believe Paul. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) ALL works in general.
So, you are looking to be saved by the law of works?
CONTINUED...
But believe me is gonna be hated by many .
Are you ready . Lets use a drum roll .....................................................................
GOD SAID ABRHAM BELIEVED WHAT GOD SAID , ABRAHAM DID WHAT GOD SAID . NOW THAT IS FAITH . RIGHT THERE .
ITS LOVE , its true BELIEF . Now have a good day .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your example is understood from a human perspective. We give gifts to each other and we receive gifts from each other. But God
doesn't offer gifts. He is the creator. Salvation is a creative act on his part. If one is granted salvation as a gift, the beneficiary is the victim of God's grace.
I take note of Romans 8:29-30, wherein Paul draws a straight, unbroken line from "foreknew" to "glorified."
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Our belief and trust are due to his creative power.
1 Peter 3:1-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We don't choose to be born again, God causes us to be born again. And all those whom God caused to be born again, will obtain an inheritance.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
That's not the definition of "free." They weren't free if I took my family to the movies and paid for all the tickets myself.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Even faith isn't a condition of salvation. Rather, faith is also a consequence of being born again.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your right..
But you can't pay for it. Only Christ could. thats the cross..
so to you it is free. because nothing you could do would even pay even a small portion of the debt you owe God
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No. Being born again is a result of having faith..
But faith is not a work. it is trusting in someone elses work. thats why you can not earn it by having faith..
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
WHO WE LOVE is WHO WE OBEY . pastors , preachers , bishops , deacons and the world
can try and say otherwise . HEED THEM NOT .
What a man loves he obeys , aka he does . whether it be the flesh , of sin unto death
or of obediance unto righteousness .
ANY JESUS that honors any kind of disobediance unto GOD , CHRIST , the apostels , aka the truth of their words
IT AINT JESUS , IT AINT THE SPIRIT , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD . its coming
from the god who desires to be as god , who rebelled against GOD , and is teaching folks a FAT LIE .
can try and say otherwise . HEED THEM NOT .
What a man loves he obeys , aka he does . whether it be the flesh , of sin unto death
or of obediance unto righteousness .
ANY JESUS that honors any kind of disobediance unto GOD , CHRIST , the apostels , aka the truth of their words
IT AINT JESUS , IT AINT THE SPIRIT , IT AINT COMING FROM GOD . its coming
from the god who desires to be as god , who rebelled against GOD , and is teaching folks a FAT LIE .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
First, saying it is "free to me" is hiding the truth that it wasn't free. Focusing on ourselves, we too easily dismiss the real cost. If we focus on Christ, maybe we can see that the Love of Jesus is a love that was never seen among human beings until then. No one has loved us greater than he does.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
A grace gift is free. you do not pay for it
Try focusing on reality/. and stop trying to make things difficult.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
If that were true, grace would not be grace.
I agree, we are trusting in someone else's work.
But I think this thread is poking at the quid-pro-quo theory of salvation, which tacitly holds that "God wants faith. So I give him faith and he rewards me with salvation."
This model of salvation rubs some of us the wrong way. What do I mean? Consider moral imperatives such as "thou shalt not murder." Many of us have come to see that we ought to keep this commandment, apart from reward or threat of punishment. A moral imperative should be obeyed simply because it is the right thing to do. Right action should be done for its own sake.
Belief in Jesus Christ is like that. One ought to believe in Christ apart from reward or threat of punishment. Belief in Jesus Christ ought to be done because it is the right thing to do and because righteous action has inherent value.
James warns us about being double-minded. "Purity of Heart is to will one thing" as Kierkegaard wrote. Do I think believing in Jesus is the right thing to do? Am I willing to believe Jesus spoke the truth, whether God saves me or not?
I know that God is rewarding believers with eternal life. But it couldn't hurt Christians to at least ask themselves the question. What do I really want?
Yes? No?
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