The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Spiritual Israelite]

I could find no reference in the NT where the church is called "the people of God."

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

Here, Paul talks about those who are called by God "not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles" after formerly being told "You are not my people" as now being called "children of the living God". This is an obvious reference to the church since he was talking about both Jew and Gentile believers here.

By the way, this is how 1 Peter 2:9-10 should be understood as well. The people who were once not the people of God includes Gentiles. Paul made that clear in this passage.

So, with this in mind, the church is called "the people of God" here:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

And here a few other passages where the church is referred to a "children of God" which is no different than being called the people of God.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Philippians 2:14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both of those quotes apply to the Hebrews, not the church at large. Remember, your second quote is in a book called "Hebrews."

Peter talked about a people who were formerly not the people of God but are now the people of God. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that includes Gentile believers.

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, "In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't accept Revelation 20:4-7, as written.

That is a lie. You know you have nothing to offer when you have to resort to lying like this. I do accept it as written. The difference between you and me is not that you accept it as written and I don't. The difference is that my understanding of how it is written differs from yours. You interpret it very literally and I don't. I believe it is written symbolically, so I accept it as written, which is symbolically.

You deceptively try to make me look bad by acting as if I don't accept what is written there at all. That is a flat out lie. I accept all scripture as the truth. But, the fact of the matter is not all scripture is meant to be taken literally. Especially in a book like Revelation.

 

[covenantee]

Do you affirm the inerrancy of the Bible? Sounds like you don't. Sounds like you believe that the OT is filled with errors that the New Testament corrects.

Sounds like you believe that God and His Son had no right to replace their old testament/covenant with a better New Testament/Covenant established upon better promises (Hebrews 8:6). Obviously you believe that They should have obtained your permission first.

You'd rather incessantly attempt to exhume and enliven a decayed, old testament/covenant. (Hebrews 8:13)

But you're out of luck.

Because it's also vanished.

Happy digging.

 

[covenantee]

What did I say that you found inaccurate?

As expected, you're unable to provide the requested information.

 

[Timtofly]

That is a lie. You know you have nothing to offer when you have to resort to lying like this. I do accept it as written. The difference between you and me is not that you accept it as written and I don't. The difference is that my understanding of how it is written differs from yours. You interpret it very literally and I don't. I believe it is written symbolically, so I accept it as written, which is symbolically.

You deceptively try to make me look bad by acting as if I don't accept what is written there at all. That is a flat out lie. I accept all scripture as the truth. But, the fact of the matter is not all scripture is meant to be taken literally. Especially in a book like Revelation.

If it is a lie, it is your lie, not mine. You say you accept it as written as long as those words are symbols and not literal.

Are thrones literal? Are souls literal? Is being beheaded literal? Is a resurrection literal? Yes, all those things are literal, and not symbolic of something totally different that is also literal.

A symbol: A literary symbol is an object, a person, a situation, or an action that has a literal meaning in a story but suggests or represents other meanings.

A symbol: a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract.

Now you state that John only uses symbols in Revelation, or you claim posters here don't know what is a symbol and what is not in the book of Revelation.

Then your default symbol is a dragon, and then you ask is the dragon literal? The serpent in the Garden had legs and then did not have legs. Or is that not literal, and only symbolic? There could have been a literal dragon that then lost it's legs. So a dragon is a literal symbol of a serpent with legs. Perhaps people don't accept the point the legs are now gone? Who knows?

We know there is not a literal dragon in the future. It is Satan. Who really cares what Satan looks like? The dragon is an abstract symbol of Satan's involvement in human government, also abstract concepts. Satan is a literal created being, not an abstract concept of evil and death, also abstract concepts.

But now you claim souls cannot be literal, so what does a soul represent in that chapter since you claim I called you a liar? You would also have to claim no one literally gets their head chopped off, that is only symbolic of being martyred, except beheaded is a literal term for a literal event, which is, wait for it, can you guess? A beheading. A throne is a literal term for a literal seat of judgment. So according to you, no one gets their head chopped off, and no one ever sits on a throne in judgment. You have decided instead, that all should mean: something you and a bunch of others think is just symbolic of people dying over the last 1993 years.

So you don't accept it as written, and you don't even think it will happen in the future. I don't accept it as very literal, whatever that means. I accept a soul is a literal soul. I accept a throne is a literal throne. I accept that being beheaded is actually being beheaded. No guess work nor hyper interpretation is necessary, nor very very much interpretation is necessary. Just one interpretation, as it is written. And certainly not hyper literal. Just plain literal.

"Hyper- is a prefix that means excess or exaggeration."

If accepting God's Word as written is not just simple interpretation, then what is simple interpretation to you? Just a step past, as written? Because as written means Revelation 20:1-6 takes place just after Revelation 19:11-21. Yet your alleged "as written", means John goes back in time after this battle you claim is merely symbolic and not literal, to the first century. How is that not an interpretation, that is a step past as written? I don't have to make up anything nor add my own interpretation, even if I do. There are added points that are implied that do not contradict the text, the context, nor other Scriptures no matter how much you claim these Scriptures as your defense for your interpretation.

 

[n2thelight]

Jesus returns in the clouds and calls up believers and then seven years later returns to earth with the raptured believers to defwat all evil and to set up His 1000 year kingdom on earth. Will you be there??

Where are those who have died at, right here right now ?

 

[n2thelight]

So what does anybody think is the thing the living believers thought they would attain to at Christ's Return?

They may have thought they were simply going to enter into Christ's Kingdom on earth as mortals. Or, they may have thought they were going to see Jesus come back on earth, establish his Kingdom, and then render his saints immortal and sinless?

They may have thought that they would precede the departed saints in this, thinking they would enter the Kingdom 1st, the departed saints joining them later? Or they may actually have been expecting to be caught up to heaven? Ideas?

All will be changed at the return of Christ , saint and sinner alike , only difference is the state of your soul at that return . Immortal meaning you need not worry about the 2nd death , mortal meaning you can die the 2nd death .

 

[CadyandZoe]

You need to spend more time reading the NT scriptures which contain explanations of the fulfillments of OT prophecies. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Allow the NT to interpret the OT prophecies for you.

I spend time in the entire Bible comparing various passages.

 

[n2thelight]

Thanks for the great questions:

1) In the pre-trib [ heavenly Mystery ] Coming, in the air, the [ not 'resurrected in

heaven' but still ] "sleeping/resting (souls) in Christ" God Brings "with" Him:​

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them ​

which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

​

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which ​

sleep in Jesus Will God Bring 'with' Him. For this we say unto you by The​

Word of The LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming​

of The LORD shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.​

For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,​

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and​

​

the dead [sleeping] in Christ shall rise first:..." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-16)​

This, then would be "those [souls] asleep" are re-united 'with' their bodies, in the
resurrection, 'leaving earth' simultaneously 'with' those alive/changed [immortal and
able to 'dwell (with a body) in heaven'?], in the "twinkling of an eye" (1Co 15:51-42)?

This is the Coming associated with "Gathering His Body To Himself, taking them
to heaven," and then:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) the other Event of His Coming associated with "gathering of Israel"?:

a) In the post-trib [ earthly Prophesied ] Coming, Christ Comes 'with' Two armies

[ have never heard of sleeping souls in an army, following their commander to war? ]​

when He "Leaves" heaven:​

​

Rev 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed Him​

upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."​

However, there is a puzzle with this:

​

When He "Arrives" on the earth, why is it that there is only ONE 'army' remaining?

Rev 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and​

their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that​

sat on the horse, and against His army."​

The only conclusion I can see, to solve this, is that the 'Heavenly Mystery,'
to Paul, for us,
The Body Of Christ, is that since our 'Uplook' * is exactly that ↑ , then, the only
thing that makes sense to me, is that "Christ Assigns the members of His Body,"
their positions of 'ruling and reigning in the heavenlies' thus, arriving on earth 'with'
ONE 'army of angels'? **

b) Once the 'destruction prophecies' are fulfilled, and "Christ Sits On His Throne," then,

this prophecy takes place?:​

With Another trumpet (After "the 7th [ many say is last? ] angel trumpet” in heaven),
on the earth, Angels Are Sent, By The KING of kings, To: “gather the elect”:

Mat 24:31 "And He shall send His angels [ the One army? ] with a​

great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect​

from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."​

​

Mar 13:27 "And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather​

together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part​

of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."​

Again, thanks for the questions, and in advance for your prayerful and
careful perusal thereof of these study thoughts. Great discussion...

----------------------------

** Way to Far-Fetched, eh? For the critics, I would like to ask this:

Since the Heavenly Jerusalem is a 12,000 furlongs cubicle (Rev 21:16), and IF all of
God's 'elect only live on the lower level' [ 1-3 miles high? ], then what would God's
Purpose Be for the Upper 1497 miles [ if not somebody 'ruling and reigning' there ]?

* Confirming Scriptures borrowed from: God's Great GRACE Departure!:

...(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)...

Are we all, in fact, studying in order to be prepared for this Judgment?

Amen.

There is no such thing as a sleeping soul

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."​

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

The dust will not rise​

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you being purposely disengenuous? You know darn well that he (along with everyone else here) doesn't believe "that the OT is filled with errors that the New Testament corrects.". He instead, like many of us, believes that the NT contains explanations of things that were purposely made obscure or were hidden in the OT. Such as when Paul explained that the promises made to Abraham and his seed apply to Jesus Christ and those who belong to Him (Galatians 3:16-29). Or that Gentile believers would be "fellowheirs" with Israelite believers (Ephesians 3:1-6). Why is it that you have so much trouble accepting the non-hyper-literal fufillments of OT prophecies that Paul wrote about?

Who told you that the OT contains passages that are "purposely obscure"? Why do you assume that you have a perfect understanding of the NT? This kind of rigid thinking indicates a religious commitment to a theological position, not one seeking to know what the Bible actually means by what it says.

I reject your assumptions as untrue and detrimental to a full knowledge of the truth.

I could give you the benefit of my experience, comparing OT passages with NT passages but you aren't willing to listen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Peter talked about a people who were formerly not the people of God but are now the people of God. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that includes Gentile believers.

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, "In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

I don't agree.

Paul believes that Hosea's prophetic word is probative, supporting his contention that God orchestrates history in order to "make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy. He does not intend to say that Hosea predicted the salvation of Gentiles. Hosea wasn't speaking about Gentiles. Hosea was speaking about the Northern Ten Tribes. And Hosea's prophecy records the great extent to which God is willing to go in order to make his mercy known.

We understand Hosea's prophecy from within the larger context of the prophetic word. Hosea is predicting a moment in time when God will not only reconcile with a people whom he once called "my people" he will grant them eternal life at a particular location. (Verse 26). Hosea is predicting a unique event, which will be located at a particular place.

People can come to faith anywhere and at any time. Time and place are unique to each person's salvation experience. In general, we can be saved at any time and at any place. Nevertheless, Hosea is predicting a special time and place that a particular group of people will all share in common. "In the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'children of the living God.'"

Is Hosea predicting the wholesale conversion of every individual among the Ten Tribes? No. But he does predict a mass conversion of a subset of that people group, all of whom God has hand-picked for eternal life.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sounds like you believe that God and His Son had no right to replace their old testament/covenant with a better New Testament/Covenant established upon better promises (Hebrews 8:6). Obviously you believe that They should have obtained your permission first.

No, that is not an implication of what I said. You equated the OT with the Old Covenant and I am arguing against that position.

You'd rather incessantly attempt to exhume and enliven a decayed, old testament/covenant. (Hebrews 8:13)

Again, this is not an implication of what I said. You are attempting to argue that each and every covenant God made, whether with a people or individuals, was nullified by the cross of Christ. I think a fair examination of the scriptures will reveal that the cross of Christ strengthens many of God's covenants with people or individuals instead. And I take issue with your interpretation of Hebrews, wherein Paul argues that the cross of Christ is a better covenant than the covenant associated with the Hebrew Day of Atonement. He does not mean to suggest that God has rescinded all of his covenants.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

Here, Paul talks about those who are called by God "not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles" after formerly being told "You are not my people" as now being called "children of the living God". This is an obvious reference to the church since he was talking about both Jew and Gentile believers here.

I take issue with that conclusion. The statement you quoted comes in the middle of Paul's argument for exclusivity with respect to the promise of eternal life. In this instance, he is laser-focused on God's promise to "his kinsmen" (his words.) He began his argument with an acknowledgment that salvation belongs to his kinsmen. (I can't seem to emphasize this enough. Salvation belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh he says.) Then he asserts that not ALL of his kinsmen will be granted eternal life because God chooses individuals for eternal life. Paul cites two examples from scripture where it is clear that God chooses individuals whom to bless, even from among the descendants of Abraham. God chose Isaac over Ishmael, even though both of them were Abraham's children and God chose Jacob over Esau even though the boys were twins.

Next Paul raises an important question. If God promised to grant eternal life to Paul's kinsmen, and it belongs to them as a people, then is God being unjust for not granting eternal life to some of them? Paul reminds his readers that God is the creator. (And I can't seem to emphasize this enough either. God is the creator.) God is like a potter making pots. And it isn't like he goes to the store to pick out the best pot from all the available pots. He creates whatever pot he needs himself. He creates some individuals on whom to demonstrate his justice and he creates other people on whom to demonstrate his mercy. (Romans 9:23-24)

Paul cites Hosea in order to demonstrate the principle he just described. God chose a people for himself: the Twelve tribes of Jacob. Ten of those Tribes decided to reject Yahweh in order to form a new nation and worship other gods. At that time and place, God declared to them, "You are not a people." But someday, Hosea predicts, there will come a unique time and place when God will not only declare these Ten Tribes "my people" at that time and place they will also be called "children of the living God." (the word "living" is significant here.)

In other words, Hosea is predicting the conversion experience for an entire group of people. It will take place at a specific time and place. And in Paul's view, this is a clear example of God's purpose to demonstrate the glory of his mercy.

Paul is NOT suggesting that Hosea predicted the salvation of the Gentiles. The Gentiles were never a people of God whom God declared "not my people" and God is not waiting for a specific time and place to bring about the conversion of the Gentiles. Each individual's conversion experience is unique to the individual. The time is NOW and the place is HERE for repentance, forgiveness, and salvation, whether Jew or Gentile. Hosea is predicting a specific time and place for a group conversion experience for the Ten Tribes.

 

[covenantee]

In this instance, he is laser-focused on God's promise to "his kinsmen" (his words.) He began his argument with an acknowledgment that salvation belongs to his kinsmen. (I can't seem to emphasize this enough. Salvation belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh he says.)

From where are you getting this? It's certainly not in the KJV.

Specific reference, please, including the Bible version.

Notice: Salvation is conspicuously absent from the enumeration in Romans 9:4. Everything therein pertains exclusively to the Old Testament.

The absence of salvation from that list explains Paul's anguish in Romans 9:1-3. He began his discourse with anguish.

He further confirms it here:

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Contrary to your claim, Paul certainly doesn't believe that "salvation belongs to his kinsmen".

Paul was not a racist.

God is not a racist.

 

[covenantee]

Each individual's conversion experience is unique to the individual. The time is NOW and the place is HERE for repentance, forgiveness, and salvation, whether Jew or Gentile.

My my, look here.

You've been recently desperately attempting to persuade us that God dealt and deals with Israel as a unit, not individually.

Have you finally decided to embrace obvious truth?

Or will you backslide?

We're most interested to find out.

 

[ewq1938]

All will be changed at the return of Christ , saint and sinner alike , only difference is the state of your soul at that return . Immortal meaning you need not worry about the 2nd death , mortal meaning you can die the 2nd death .

Sinners aren't changed at the second coming. Many are killed but no change like the raptured are.

 

[n2thelight]

Sinners aren't changed at the second coming. Many are killed but no change like the raptured are.

all are changed at the moment of death or the return of Christ , whichever comes first . Where was the rich man?

 

[ewq1938]

all are changed at the moment of death or the return of Christ , whichever comes first .

The dead and living in Christ, meaning saved Christians are immortal at t5he Coming. The rest are the unsaved and they don't get changed at all. After the thousand years the living unsaved will be killed, and then all of the dead unsaved will be resurrected but only back to mortal life so they can die a second time in the LOF.

Where was the rich man?

Hades.

 

[n2thelight]

The dead and living in Christ, meaning saved Christians are immortal at t5he Coming. The rest are the unsaved and they don't get changed at all. After the thousand years the living unsaved will be killed, and then all of the dead unsaved will be resurrected but only back to mortal life so they can die a second time in the LOF.

You got that completely wrong , guess you think there will be flesh people during the millennium .