Analysis
Who is this “servant” who will prosper? To know who he is we should have a look at the previous passages that are in actual fact related to chapter 53. For example, in Isaiah 41:8 the verse says,”But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen.”
Once again in verse 9 it says,”I said,‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.” In Isaiah 43:1 we read,”..he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel.” And again in Isaiah 44:1 says,”But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.”
In all those instances the same Hebrew word is used namely ‘ebed which means servant(’abd in Arabic). Look carefully at the verses and notice that the servant(’ebed) is mentioned along side Jacob and Israel. Thus it is safe to say that in verse 13 of chapter 52 the servant is not Jesus but rather the nation of Israel portrayed in one man namely, Jacob. According to Rabbi Rashi and the like it is a representation of the people of Israel.
First, there is no “Rabbi Rashi”. “Rashi” is not a proper name but the acronym for Rabbi Smo Yitzchaqi (*).
He did hold the view that this is about Israel as a nation and he is mostly responsible for this view being held by the overwhelming majority of orthodox Jews today, though his predecessors and many rabbis after him have rejected this view and applied it to the Messiah instead. For example, Moshe Ibn Crispin (14th century) has said about this chapter:
This Parashah [i.e. passage] the commentators agree in explaining of the Captivity of Israel, although the singular number is used in it throughout. The expression My Servant they compare rashly with Isaiah 41:8, "you Israel are My servant"; here, however, he does not mention Israel, but simply says, My servant; we cannot therefore understand the word in the same sense. … here he says My servant alone, and uniformly employs the singular, as there is no cause constraining us to do so, why should we here interpret the word collectively, and thereby distort the passage from its natural sense? …
As then it seemed to me that the doors of the literal interpretation of the Parashah were shut in their face, and that "they wearied themselves to find the entrance," having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers [i.e. the Sages], and inclined after the "stubbornness of their own hearts," and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis [i.e. the Sages], of the King Messiah, and will be careful, so far as I am able, to adhere to the literal sense; thus, possibly, I shall be free from the forced and far-fetched interpretations of which others have been guilty.
(Adolf Neubauer and S.R. Driver, The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, New York: Ktav, 1969, Vol. II, p. 99-100; boldface and underline emphasis mine; an older edition is available online)
Eved Adonai – The Servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53
www.answering-islam.org
Get your facts straight @Matthias and since you run to Jews for Judaism-Tovia spearheading the "Revived Sanhedrin"-I make the assumption you believe as he do.
Bring something to the table-hound of Judaism.
Read the link-since most of you do not read "links"
Johann.
Reasons Jews Reject Jesus
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The false assertion that Jews are forbidden to read Isaiah 53 is just one more reason why some Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth, himself a Jew.
Just imagine how Christians would react if a Jew made the false assertion that Christians were not allowed, forbidden, to read the Hebrew Bible!
Constructing walls made of patently false assertions - which is what the “Jews are forbidden to read Isaiah 53” narrative is - is not an effective witness for Jesus of Nazareth. It unnecessarily turns Jews away.
Remember, reader. There is a big difference between interpretation of Isaiah 53 (which requires reading the chapter) and insulting the intelligence of Jews and non-Jews (by asserting that Jews have been forbidden to read the chapter).
Jews read Isaiah 53. That’s a fact. They don’t interpret it the way Christians do. That too is a fact.*
I attest from personal experience that acknowledgement of these two facts facilitates dialogue / witness.
*Unless and until they become persuaded. There are thousands of Messianic Jews.
Constructing walls made of patently false assertions - which is what the “Jews are forbidden to read Isaiah 53” narrative is - is not an effective witness for Jesus of Nazareth. It unnecessarily turns Jews away.
Remember, reader. There is a big difference between interpretation of Isaiah 53 (which requires reading the chapter) and insulting the intelligence of Jews and non-Jews (by asserting that Jews have been forbidden to read the chapter).
Jews read Isaiah 53. That’s a fact. They don’t interpret it the way Christians do. That too is a fact.*
I attest from personal experience that acknowledgement of these two facts facilitates dialogue / witness.
*Unless and until they become persuaded. There are thousands of Messianic Jews.
Who is insulting the intelligence of the Jews and Goyim Mr. Ha Ha.
On the other hand-not interested.
You are on ignore.
Johann.
Christians are forbidden, by law, to "proselyte" Jews to Christ-in Israel.
Johann.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The KJV was the most popular. But any translation that would describe the Son of God as "it", needs to be chucked! I'm done.
The KJV was produced quite a number of years / decades after the beginning of the Protestant Reformation and the publication of the Geneva Bible. (Note other pre-KJV English translations too.)
I’m not aware of any translation that does. That you think the Bible published by the Reformers (and other pre-KJV English translations) does is pretty shocking.
Don't allow @Matthias to rile you brother-use that ignore feature-many are "Lolling-and "Ha Ha-ing" and now is not the time to be frivolous-walking with a mask before their faces.
Shalom
Johann.
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What Religion Was Jesus? — Jews for Jesus
Did Jesus invent a new religion? The simple answer is that Jesus was a rabbi – a teacher of Judaism. During the time of Jesus, Judaism took on a variety of forms, most of which are not comparable to today’s expressions.
www.jewsforjesus.org.au
Not a source (Jews For Jesus) wholly sympathetic to my theology but one which recognizes and acknowledges that the religion of Jesus is Judaism. It’s something which they and I are able to agree on.
This is the type of information that I would, and have, used in speaking with Jews about Jesus of Nazareth.
It’s common ground like this which fosters and encourages dialogue and discussion.
I was listening to the radio for a few minutes yesterday and briefly heard a commentator speaking about how and why the Nazis in the 1930’s attempted to persuade people that Jesus isn’t Jewish. That such a propaganda campaign would be successful is hard to get the mind around.
I still encounter people from time to time who don’t believe Jesus is Jewish. They‘ve been small in number and their purpose wasn’t that of the Nazis. Nevertheless, someone or something has persuaded them that Jesus isn’t Jewish.
I’ve yet to meet a Jew who denied that Jesus is Jewish. Denial, in most cases, that he is the Messiah, yes. Acceptance, in some cases, that he is the Messiah, yes. Denial that he is a Jew, no.
I still encounter people from time to time who don’t believe Jesus is Jewish. They‘ve been small in number and their purpose wasn’t that of the Nazis. Nevertheless, someone or something has persuaded them that Jesus isn’t Jewish.
I’ve yet to meet a Jew who denied that Jesus is Jewish. Denial, in most cases, that he is the Messiah, yes. Acceptance, in some cases, that he is the Messiah, yes. Denial that he is a Jew, no.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Why would anyone think Jesus wasn’t Jewish.
What’s was in question is was he their king blood rights.
I personally don’t see how anyone Jew or alleged Christian could make an argument with an Orthodox Jew with this idea that Jesus is God, invited by pagan Rome.
In the case of the Nazis, to break down the resistance of the populace to persecuting Jews.
Unfortunately, the policy of Christianity Board currently prohibits discussion of that subject. Mindful of that, I have no comment.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Trying to stay on topic, I’d question did all Jews hate Jesus or maybe only those who stood to lose some status?
What would you answer to the purpose of the lineage of Joseph being recorded in Matthew?
Great point. It should be obvious to people that not all Jews hated Jesus. Not even all of the religious authorities hated him.
The same as with the lineage of Mary - to prove / persuade that he is the Messiah; a descendant of David.
What would you say is the purpose?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Thanks, but I'm not at all riled, just brushing the dirt off my sandals and moving on. There is no reason to hang around, as he said, he won't change his mind, it's futile.
I’m glad to hear that. I’m here to dialogue with people from various faith traditions, not to rile them.
I’m actually on record here as saying that I’ve changed my mind before and that I’m open to the possibility of changing my mind again.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
My opinion is that the narrative most are arguing disqualify Jesus from being the rightful king of the Jews.
Do you think Jesus is the rightful king of the Jews?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
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