Davy
Well-Known Member
So instead of heeding Christ's and His Apostle's warnings about the events of the end leading up to Jesus' future coming, you INSTEAD listen to men's doctrines that suits your fancy. Good luck, is all I can say, and dream on.
Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??
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So instead of heeding Christ's and His Apostle's warnings about the events of the end leading up to Jesus' future coming, you INSTEAD listen to men's doctrines that suits your fancy. Good luck, is all I can say, and dream on.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, the orthodox Jew's gathering of materials to build their next temple in Jerusalem is exactly... what we need to get into!
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www.templemountfaithful.org
It's been several years now, since orthodox unbelieving Jews in Israel have been sacrificing on a hill overlooking the temple mount.
It's been several years also since the 'corner stone' was cut by Jewish masons and attempted to be placed on the temple mount to start the building of the next Jewish temple in Jerusalem.
Prophecy about the end time events requires... the existence of a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem.
So no, I'm not going to talk about your hatred of non-Jews here. You need to go to an all orthodox unbelieving Jewish forum.
Oh, I do heed all the events that are presented in the NT as a whole. None of those future events changes the Gospel of salvation or the individual salvation of any believer. Salvation is not based upon anyone understanding anything about the harpazo. If people are living for, and walking with Jesus, then it doesn't matter which day or which hour it will be when that believer is called home. IMO, you are attempting to cause division within the ranks of believers over an issue that has nothing to do with their salvation. If a believer is called home before the harpazo, then who cares what they thought about that issue given the fact that they died before that future event happened. This attempt to justify your individual "knowledge" over and above the beliefs of other Christians here smacks of Gnosticism. So sorry, but the great commission is to go and preach the Gospel to all creatures; not to go and argue with fellow believers over differing doctrinal interpretations and cause division within the bride of Christ. Cheers.
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Choir Loft
Your references require documentation.No, the orthodox Jew's gathering of materials to build their next temple in Jerusalem is exactly... what we need to get into!
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It's been several years now, since orthodox unbelieving Jews in Israel have been sacrificing on a hill overlooking the temple mount.
It's been several years also since the 'corner stone' was cut by Jewish masons and attempted to be placed on the temple mount to start the building of the next Jewish temple in Jerusalem.
Prophecy about the end time events requires... the existence of a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem.
So no, I'm not going to talk about your hatred of non-Jews here. You need to go to an all orthodox unbelieving Jewish forum.
PROVE IT.
Hasidic/Orthodox Jews are NOT gathering material to build another temple. They're only talking about it.
The notion of an organized building project has been perpetrated among gullible evangelicals since the 1980's. It's usually coupled with petitions for donation$ to assist the work - generally presented by some itinerant preacher WHO HAS NO VALIDATION TO SUPPORT HIS ASSERTION.
I once encountered one such snake several decades ago and challenged him to produce documentation. He left town and never returned. Good riddance.
If a cornerstone has been cut WHERE IS IT BEING STORED? There is no cut corner stone - period.
I do understand that a small collection of ancient religious implements has been put on public display by the Israel Department of Antiquities, but this is nowhere near what might be needed for a working daily sacrificial system. Many of these implements have been unearthed beneath the temple mount, which is hollow in several large sections. Artifacts discovered beneath the temple mount are generally in pristine condition because they've not been exposed to the elements since they were buried there. Small groups of tourists are now allowed to view portions of the subterranean excavations.
Prophecy about the End Times does NOT require a third temple. If you really want to get specific about it, modern Israelis consider the State of Israel itself to be a third temple. The problem with this is anti-semitic attitudes on the part of evangelical church types who pretty much deny any idea Jews come up with.....
Current Orthodox and Reform Jewish doctrine states that sacrifices of animals are no longer required. When pressed as to why they feel this is true they cannot provide a logical answer, by the LAW requiring it. Current mitzvah states good deeds are sufficient to qualify one for reward in the eyes of God - a discipline of works similar to the RCC.
I confess that I can't speak to Conservative Jewish doctrine, but an educated guess would consider that it agrees with the first two.
Karaite Jews, like Y'shuah, deny Talmud and accept only the Tanakh. That being said, they too do not follow mitzvah regarding animal sacrifices as well as certain observances of the LAW that require a temple to exist.
Messianic Jews don't believe temple sacrifice is necessary because Y'shuah fulfilled the LAW regarding that aspect of atonement. (Matt 5:17)
All of this being said, a temple rebuilding movement is supposed to have been started in 1987 by Hasidic (orthodox) Jews, but as of this date they've only reestablished a Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. (The Sanhedrin was the judicial system of ancient Israel. Each city and town had one with the Jerusalem Sanhedrin acting like a Supreme Court to decide important issues.)
Most Jews are partially secularized in the diaspora and aren't concerned one way or the other about a rebuilt temple.
The only people that seem to be concerned about a rebuilt temple are American church types who refuse to accept that JEWISH DOCTRINE AND RITUAL IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. Unfortunately, church types embrace a peculiar brand of systemic anti-semitism and insist that their interpretation of SOMEONE ELSE'S RELIGION is the only valid one available. In other words, they exhibit the characteristics of religious bigotry, snobbery and superiority. When reminded they need to focus upon their own shortcomings they deny they have any at all.
It's all very absurd, which is why most of the world now considers American evangelical Christianity something to be ignored and/or laughed at.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
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Choir Loft
ok
According to scripture some sort of unearthly entities are supposed to remove certain humans from the earth. Those removed are the wicked. Those that do the taking are demons. (Some interpretations suggest that holy angles perform this gruesome task.) Those who are taken are destroyed like chaff and weeds from a farmer's field.
Those who are left, the meek, inherit the earth.
In other words, correct interpretation of scripture is the opposite of the popularized notion which is out of context with the rest of the Bible. God NEVER removes people from trouble. He ALWAYS sees them through it as for example Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego in the fiery furnace, Daniel in the lion's den and the entire nation of Israel when it was trapped in front of the Red Sea. Additional examples are too numerous to list here.
Does this help?
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
PS supporting scripture can be provided upon request, but since such references are generally rejected I haven't bothered to quote them here.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your view that the taken are taken to judgment isn't supported by scripture. Noah wasn't taken to judgment, and neither were Lot and his family. Jesus cites both of these examples in his teaching on the end-times.
You may be thinking of Matthew 13:36-43, where Jesus tells a parable about the end of the age. Jesus interprets the parable himself saying, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness . . ." This event takes place at the end of the age when the son of man comes.
This, of course, is not the same event described in Matthew 24 or 1Thessalonians 4.
Of course
I can't speak to the popularized notion. I have no interest in that for one thing. Let's discuss particular passages of scripture instead.
I can multiply examples of where he DOES remove people from trouble. The two cases Jesus mentioned were Noah and Lot.
No. Not really. I honestly don't understand Davy's post.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Noah was not 'taken'.
Noah was preserved whereas the 'wicked' were taken away in the flood.
Matthew ch24
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I see two possible interpretations of this passage.
1. the flood came and took away the wicked. [them all = the wicked]
or
2. the flood came and took away those who entered the arc. [them all = everyone in the arc]
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Only one is correct
Matt ch24
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Do you know which one?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
I agree David! Those taken away are destroyed by the waters of the flood while only those who entered the ark were saved.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
There are only two possible meanings if you do not know which is the correct one.
The correct answer and affirmation is given in the direct statement from the LORD.
Matt ch24
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I did prove it, with that link I presented that you apparently for some reason want to deny.
The orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, and I mean the 'religious' Jews there, and in the rest of the world, still believe they are under the old covenant. So what do you think all their wanting to return to the holy lands and re-establish their faith in God is about? It certainly ain't about Faith in Christ Jesus with those orthodox unbelieving Jews who believe they are still under the old covenant!
And what does old covenant worship require per God's Word?
At least a tabernacle and animal sacrifices, and the articles for temple worship.
This is why groups in the land of Israel today like those at templemountfaithful.org have been holding sacrifices on passover for about a decade now, and already have the cornerstone cut for their new temple.
Davy
Well-Known Member
How 'bout John 3 then? are you familiar with that when Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus that one must be "born again"?
One's soul, even while still alive in the flesh walking upon this earth, is either "born again" in Jesus Christ by The Holy Spirit, or one is a non-believer and is 'spiritually dead' inside and assigned to perdition in the future "lake of fire". It's that simple.
Thus the "carcase" metaphor Lord Jesus used in Matthew 24:28, which is a parallel verse to His answer of "Where, Lord" in Luke 17:37, is about the 'spiritually dead' who are deceived by the devil at the end of this world, and thus are wheresoever Satan's host of vultures are gathered to feast on them, all in the spiritual sense. That's Lord Jesus' answer.
Therefore, Pre-trib Rapture's theory about those in Christ being the 1st one TAKEN is a FALSEHOOD. Those in Christ DO NOT want to be the 1st 'taken', for that's about the dead "carcase", the spiritually dead, according to Lord Jesus.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No.2 is impossible and against the Scriptures about the flood of Noah's day, and for the end of this world.
God 'sealed' Noah and his family inside the ark. Have you not realized how that 'sealed' idea as used in Christ's Revelation, and is about Christ's protection away from temptation and deception at the end of this world?
Thus no.2 as a choice is impossible per God's Word. Christ Jesus now is our ARK of protection for the end time symbolic 'flood' by the "serpent" of Rev.12:15.
The "taking away" ~ sending away, of the ones on Jesus's left, the wicked ~ will occur at the final Judgment, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46, specifically verses 41-46. Too much is apparently being read into Matthew 24 by some posters here, or so it seems. In that specific passage, all we can really take from it is that Jesus's return will be unexpected and sudden, especially by unbelievers who only meet any word of Christ's return with scorn and dismissiveness and will thus be... surprised... and horrified. Such was the case in the days of Noah when the flood came, and such will be the case when Christ return.
As for a "rapture," in keeping with what I just said, there will be no removal of anyone from this world at Christ's return. It will certainly be a rapturous event, in which, when Jesus comes back, there will be absolutely no doubt Whose world this is; He will finally and completely claim everything as His, and there will be no more conflict. Believers who are still alive will go out to meet Him in the air and join Him (and all the saints who have gone before, who will be coming with Him) in His descent to earth, as subjects go out to meet royalty in their return ~ and as they did on Palm Sunday in Jesus's entry into Jerusalem. This will occur at the end of this age, the millennium of Revelation 20:3.
Grace and peace to all!
As for a "rapture," in keeping with what I just said, there will be no removal of anyone from this world at Christ's return. It will certainly be a rapturous event, in which, when Jesus comes back, there will be absolutely no doubt Whose world this is; He will finally and completely claim everything as His, and there will be no more conflict. Believers who are still alive will go out to meet Him in the air and join Him (and all the saints who have gone before, who will be coming with Him) in His descent to earth, as subjects go out to meet royalty in their return ~ and as they did on Palm Sunday in Jesus's entry into Jerusalem. This will occur at the end of this age, the millennium of Revelation 20:3.
Grace and peace to all!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Them who? The flood took Noah and his family away in a different sense.
Consider Malachi 4. Here Malachi describes a single event, which will involve two groups of people: 1) those who fear the Lord and 2) The arrogant evil doers. And each group will experience the event differently. Right?
Terrible Day of the Lord
Group one: Evil doers.
Experience: burning and incineration.
Group two: Fear the Lord
Experience: the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings.
Same event, different experience.
Now consider the flood. Just as in Malachi 4, where two distinct groups experience the same event in two distinct ways; Noah's flood was also a single event experienced by two different groups of people, resulting in two distinct outcomes. Let me itemize this matrix.
A. Noah and his family rise above the flood on an arc Noah constructed.
B. The wicked were drowned in the flood, not having entered the arc.
Okay then. Let's plug these into the text in order to evaluate the two possible meanings;
But as the days of Noah: A.
But as the days of Noah: B
Did Jesus mean to say the first or the second?
Did he mean to say, "Noah and his family rose above the flood because they believed in God, made an arc, and entered the arc when the rain came and just as it was then, so it shall be when the son of man comes?"
Lesson: The wicked were not prepared.
Or
Did he mean to say, the wicked drowned in the flood, not having entered the arc, and just as it was in Noah's day, when the son of man comes some people will be taken away?
Lesson: The wicked were unrighteous.
These are the two options. The first one makes more sense to me, but I can see the other.
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