Soul Sleep yes or no?

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Is there such a thing as "soul sleep"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • No

    Votes: 13 56.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

St. SteVen

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-and soul sleep is unbiblical-correct?
I think unbiblical is the wrong term here.
And this is something I want us all to consider.

Those who take the position of unconscious nonexistence (the dead know nothing)
have a biblical basis for that position. They have provided scriptural support, correct?
How can we then claim their position is unbiblical?

Here's the point.
I think it is wrong to claim that someone else's position is unbiblical on the basis that our position differs.
The idea that if we think they got it wrong, that makes their position unbiblical. It's not true. IMHO

Does that make sense?
 
J

Johann

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I think unbiblical is the wrong term here.
And this is something I want us all to consider.

Those who take the position of unconscious nonexistence (the dead know nothing)
have a biblical basis for that position. They have provided scriptural support, correct?
How can we then claim their position is unbiblical?

Here's the point.
I think it is wrong to claim that someone else's position is unbiblical on the basis that our position differs.
The idea that if we think they got it wrong, that makes their position unbiblical. It's not true. IMHO

Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense.
However-
“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical.

When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27).

For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).


Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14). As can be clearly seen in Luke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include the Seventh Day Adventist church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, and others.

Just remember-I don't endorse all the teachings from this site, but there are valid points.
Johann.
 
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St. SteVen

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@St. SteVen , you didn't answer the question.
I've seen a lot of this on the forum lately.
Forum posters interrogating other posters.

The idea that a written reply is not an answer to their loaded question.

A sure sign of an agenda. Someone that is not interesting in understanding others.
Like a police interview gone wrong, they only wish to get the confession they want.
What do you think will happen to the dead when the resurrection of the dead that Jesus and his disciples spoke of occurs?
The dead will be resurrected. (duh) Happy now?

I suppose we need to explore the definition of the word "dead".
That may be where the disconnect is here.

I suppose you have a biblical basis for your position.
But that doesn't mean I need to disregard my own biblical position in favor of yours.
And especially not on the basis that you think I am ignorant.
 

St. SteVen

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Yes, it makes sense.
LOL

Then you go on to explain why another biblical position is not biblical. (sigh)

What harm is done for someone to believe in soul sleep?
Do you really think anyone is saved by doctrine?

Why is it so important to you to destroy your brothers and sisters in Christ over doctrinal differences?
What would be the loving approach? To set them straight, or to accept them as they are?
 
J

Johann

Guest
LOL

Then you go on to explain why another biblical position is not biblical. (sigh)

What harm is done for someone to believe in soul sleep?
Do you really think anyone is saved by doctrine?

Why is it so important to you to destroy your brothers and sisters in Christ over doctrinal differences?
What would be the loving approach? To set them straight, or to accept them as they are?
I don't want to waste my time here on this thread-what you are saying doesn't make any sense.
Johann.
 

St. SteVen

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I don't want to waste my time here on this thread-what you are saying doesn't make any sense.
That's not what you wrote in post #262. See below.
Yes, it makes sense.
I question your motives.
Why would understanding how to love the Body of Christ be a waste of your time?
Is the forum a blood sport to you?

If so, seek prey elsewhere. (on another thread) Happy hunting.
 
J

Johann

Guest
That's not what you wrote in post #262. See below.

I question your motives.
Why would understanding how to love the Body of Christ be a waste of your time?
Is the forum a blood sport to you?

If so, seek prey elsewhere. (on another thread) Happy hunting.
Cheers-Bon Voyage
Johann.
 

Lambano

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I think unbiblical is the wrong term here.
And this is something I want us all to consider.

Those who take the position of unconscious nonexistence (the dead know nothing)
have a biblical basis for that position. They have provided scriptural support, correct?
How can we then claim their position is unbiblical?

Here's the point.
I think it is wrong to claim that someone else's position is unbiblical on the basis that our position differs.
The idea that if we think they got it wrong, that makes their position unbiblical. It's not true. IMHO

Does that make sense?
And nobody is willing to admit that there's a pink elephant in the room: That the Biblical witness is at best ambiguous and at worst flat-out self-contradictory on this point.
 

Lambano

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So, we're at my mother-in-law's funeral. After viewing the corpus delecti, my grandson, with a seven-year-old's precocious innocence asks, "Will people have clothes in Heaven?". Thinking of Rev. 6:11, I said, "Yes, we will be given white robes to wear". But my sister-in-law, a wise and faithful woman who knows her Bible said, "It will be like the Garden of Eden again, and we will be naked. And God will be there". That stopped me in my tracks, and not just because of the mental image of my old sister-in-law naked. At every Christian funeral I've ever gone to (and as my church's sound man, I had to go to all of them, and we'd had a streak of them lately), the congregation talks about our late brother or sister "going to Heaven", but the scriptures read at every funeral talk instead about Resurrection. "I AM the Resurrection and the Life. Though a man die, yet shall he live." Something doesn't jibe.

So, I then ran across N.T. Wright's Surprised By Hope in the Barnes and Nobel. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not; God knows. Wright makes the Biblical case that the ultimate Christian hope is being resurrected into a renewed Creation, a Creation without death and without sin. And God will be there with His people.

I will note that Wright does allow for a conscious and/or sleeping interim state between death and resurrection. But I still hope we wear clothes in The World to Come.

I had to reprint this one because it's appropriate for this thread: A Lambano oldie but goodie from a 2021 thread. There really is nothing new under the sun.
 

St. SteVen

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And nobody is willing to admit that there's a pink elephant in the room
If you are seeing PINK elephants... we may have another problem. - LOL
That the Biblical witness is at best ambiguous and at worst flat-out self-contradictory on this point.
That saw cuts both ways. Isn't that what they are saying about us as well?
What to do, what to do... ???

My stance is to respect the opinion of others if they have done their homework and arrived at a conclusion.
I don't have to agree with the conclusions. I have changed my position on things over time.
They could change in time as well. They may as well, if we are inviting to them.

By accepting people where they are, we can live at peace.
More important for me to understand where the other person is coming from than to CONVERT them to my view.

IMHO one of the BIGGEST problems with a religion forum is that...
Everyone is selling, and no one is buying. The sign of a collapsed economy.
And worse than that... potential customers are burning the shops they don't like. - LOL
The religion equivalent of social unrest. (riots in the street)
 
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St. SteVen

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That stopped me in my tracks, and not just because of the mental image of my old sister-in-law naked. At every Christian funeral I've ever gone to (and as my church's sound man, I had to go to all of them, and we'd had a streak of them lately),
Oh my...
We have gone from pink elephants to streakers at funerals. Wow. - LOL
 
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St. SteVen

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So, we're at my mother-in-law's funeral. After viewing the corpus delecti, my grandson, with a seven-year-old's precocious innocence asks, "Will people have clothes in Heaven?". Thinking of Rev. 6:11, I said, "Yes, we will be given white robes to wear". But my sister-in-law, a wise and faithful woman who knows her Bible said, "It will be like the Garden of Eden again, and we will be naked. And God will be there".
How did your grandson react?
That's a lot for a seven year old to wrap his head around.
 

Lambano

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My stance is to respect the opinion of others if they have done their homework and arrived at a conclusion.
I don't have to agree with the conclusions. I have changed my position on things over time.
They could change in time as well. They may as well, if we are inviting to them.

By accepting people where they are, we can live at peace.
More important for me to understand where the other person is coming from than to CONVERT them to my view.
Agree with this. One of the best Bible teachers I ever had was himself an opinionated, crotchety old S.O.B. - but he didn't mind you disagreeing with him if you did your homework and could state cogently what you believed and why you believed it. And I disagreed with him often and said so and said why. I don't think I ever converted him to my point of view, or converted to his, but the most important lesson I learned in that Sunday School class wasn't about Bible verses.
 
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St. SteVen

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the congregation talks about our late brother or sister "going to Heaven", but the scriptures read at every funeral talk instead about Resurrection. "I AM the Resurrection and the Life. Though a man die, yet shall he live." Something doesn't jibe.
Right, "Something doesn't jibe."
The Bible presents conflicting views on this. And nearly everything, frankly.

The "Christian" response...
The other guys view is a pink elephant in the room.

On another thread a Sabbatarian said I "paid a pretty penny" for my "education".
Seemed like an insult to me. I replied...

"Appears that you spent your last dime. - LOL"
 

Lambano

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Pinkie, Barney Gumble's (The Simpsons) favorite alcohol-induced hallucination.

latest
 

Helen

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Interesting thread .

re opening post .

I do believe in an afterlife after death instantly for the Christian. But not heaven . If someone believes that we ‘die and go to heaven ‘ then that bypasses any judgement day. It hasn’t happened yet!

I do believe as Jesus said - ‘this day will you be with me in paradise ‘….he didn’t say heaven.
for yet unsaved I do believe in soul sleep after death. ( I’ve never understood how some people say that they are in hell! No judgement day yet. )

But then again, I am one who believes that when God says that “ he’s not will that any shall perish “
and -“every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is lord . “
it will come to pass.
after all, it does say in Rev that the fire was made for the Devil and his angels…

that’s good enough for me. :)
 

Lambano

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How did your grandson react?
That's a lot for a seven year old to wrap his head around.

IMHO one of the BIGGEST problems with a religion forum is that...
Everyone is selling, and no one is buying. The sign of a collapsed economy.
And worse than that... potential customers are burning the shops they don't like. - LOL
His response at the time was just "Oh", as much as I can remember.

As an adult now, he's ghosted his family and (I'm told) looking for a different shop.

But your analysis of religion forums is dead-nuts on. And I'm just about as guilty as anyone else, though I can think of some (rare) individuals and topics that had a profound effect on me over the years. Part of the problem is that there are so many "winds of doctrine" blowing around. Gotta throw out an anchor or get tossed on the rocks.
 

BarneyFife

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I don't like to pose sarcastic questions to folks who hold sincere, innocent beliefs but I really do have a hard time wrapping my head around the logistics of the conventional view of the state of the dead. If the soul goes to Heaven upon death, then what exactly is "the hope of the resurrection?"

Are there really a bunch of disembodied spirits floating around the ether jonesing for a body to live in? And if so, why has God been denying them this privilege (some for thousands of years)?

I never used to have a problem with this, until I started studying, thinking, and doing the math about it. There are so many passages in the Bible that suggest the dead are actually dead compared to the few that could be argued to indicate otherwise.

Sure, I acknowledge that a couple of those few passages, if read directly and without comparing to others, would suggest unconditional immortality. But Christians normally don't have a problem with going as far as to even virtually ignore a few verses in favor of others that support more widely accepted dogma.

Am I not seeing this situation clearly?

When all the pontificating, cult-calling, finger-wagging, and scholar citations are over, what are we left with from a "Thus saith the LORD?"

I really believe the devil went with "Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) at the very outset and never looked back.

He knew he didn't immediately expire when he first took up the baton of rebellion and he knew he could, at least temporarily, presume upon the mercy of God and that perhaps Adam and Eve wouldn't get the memo that, already, their cells were beginning to necrotize faster than they could be replaced and that with God a day (Genesis 2:17) is as a thousand years (Psalms 90:4, 2Peter 3:8) (beyond which they would, in fact, not retain their animate vitality).

We really might have to put on our thinking caps if we're going to escape this part of the last great web of deception that, as we are told, if possible, will snare the very elect. This shouldn't be taken as questioning anyone's abilities or intentions because it certainly isn't meant to. However, we all might have to, at some point, internalize the likelihood that the devil has a few advantages over us with regard to cunning and sophistry.

And finally, I can't help but notice that these hotly contested subjects seem to attract a lot of assaults on people's intelligence. Perhaps I could be allowed two observations: (1) Men and women of very studious and brilliant traits have come down on either side of this question; and (2) rarely is anyone's position ever tied to the spiritual ramifications of their position on the question (which is where, in fact, it seems to me the bulk of concern should be). It seems to nearly always be a matter of intellectual integrity, especially to those who object the loudest.

In general, insults and using derogatory terms for sincerely held beliefs (which seems to be almost universally practiced—after a time, neutral terms that are used unkindly take on a negative connotation) never saved anyone from being deceived. Derision and ad hominem will not help to clear up this confusion. :confused:

(You know who you are. For your own soul's sake, at least pray for people before you scoff, per the spirit of Galatians 6:1.)
 
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