Understanding The Flow of Our Lord's Book of Revelation

[teleiosis]

I'll be back to debunk more of your false doctrine when I come back!

Taking one of three possible definitions for eschatos and running it to the extreme -
- and not answering any points in rebuttal means you haven't "debunked" anything.

If last means no other Trumpet can sound after the last trumpet, does that mean no day can come after the last day? ....crickets....​

Because God orders His Trumpets as First, Last, and Great - doesn't that point to something deeper taking place? ....crickets again....​

Because both instances of last (trumpet and day) can signify the end of the Church Age, doesn't that fall within Thayer's definition? .....crickets.....​

Saying you haven't fabricated text in God's Word when it's right there in your signature block -
- means between the last three points and this that I think you're delusional.

...and no, I don't care what you say about Habakkuk; you have proven yourself ill-equipped to teach.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, We've been here before. I agree with your last sentence but exactly when is still the question. You can call it the "last day" and leave it at that or we could call it the last day of the age. Realistically the "real" last day won't come until the end of the rebellion that comes at the end of the millennium. So to assume it means the 2520th day of the 70th week is just postulating. It can't be proven just like my beliefs can't be proven. It just boils down to how we all see the big picture. If we all agreed on everything there would be nothing to talk about and boards such as this would turn into a christian "facebook", God forbid!


Kaotic, Your questions: "Did God remove Daniel from the lions den or did He save him through it? Did God save the three Hebrews from the firery furnace or did He save them through it? Did God save Job from his trials or did He help him through it?

My questions: Did the apostles all die horrible deaths or did God see them through it? Did all the martyr's of the 1st century church die or did God see them through it?

Is it possible that some will come through unscathed until the rapture? Sure, but the majority won't. Death isn't the enemy. Sudden death means sudden glory, but we would be fools to not consider the possibility that most of us won't make it through alive.

I'm well aware that Christ's future "thousand years" reign that begins on the day of His return is INCLUDED in this present earth age's timeframe (meaning this present earth age continues unto God's future new heavens and a new earth). But that's not the timing those "last days" verses are pointing to. If you believe they are, then you may as well believe that Christ's coming is not until after... His "thousand years" reign too, and you know that kind of idea is nothing but confusion away from The Scripture.

That timing I speak of is not... the same idea for 'age' that you're thinking. 2 Pet.3:10 reveals this present world time we are in 'now' will end on the day of Christ's coming "as a thief". That is not... the end of this earth age we are in now, but only the end of this present 'world' age. There are only 3 earth age's written of in God's Word. The first one was the time when Satan first rebelled against God. The 2nd one began at Gen.1:2, and we are still... in that 2nd one today, all the way up to the day of Christ's return. The 3rd one is for after... Christ's future Milennium reign and will be the new heavens and a new earth with God's enemies all destroyed. They won't see that last one.

 

[revturmoil]

Taking one of three possible definitions for eschatos and running it to the extreme -
- and not answering any points in rebuttal means you haven't "debunked" anything.

If last means no other Trumpet can sound after the last trumpet, does that mean no day can come after the last day? ....crickets....​

Because God orders His Trumpets as First, Last, and Great - doesn't that point to something deeper taking place? ....crickets again....​

Because both instances of last (trumpet and day) can signify the end of the Church Age, doesn't that fall within Thayer's definition? .....crickets.....​

Saying you haven't fabricated text in God's Word when it's right there in your signature block -
- means between the last three points and this that I think you're delusional.

...and no, I don't care what you say about Habakkuk; you have proven yourself ill-equipped to teach.

I'll be back to answer your questions about my signature block. I'm out of town for a while.
And I don't change the meaning of biblical words or the timing of prophetic events! Do some homework onHabukkuk and you'll see that nearly every commentator say's it's both past and future fulfillmnt. Read Hab. 1 it's all about terrorism!

Did you forget??? Babylon falls twice!

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Ancient Babylon fell and so will Babylon the mystery!

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

 

[rand]

I just heard recently that the Jews of Roman era used a code-name when they wanted to talk negatively (esp. in writen word) about Rome and didn't want to suffer for doing so. That code name was Babylon. Can anyone confirm this? It certainly makes the makes the Vatican look like the great fasle prophet.

 

[veteran]

I just heard recently that the Jews of Roman era used a code-name when they wanted to talk negatively (esp. in writen word) about Rome and didn't want to suffer for doing so. That code name was Babylon. Can anyone confirm this? It certainly makes the makes the Vatican look like the great fasle prophet.

So... just because the Jews said that means it's true?? That's foolish!

 

[rand]

I think you're missing my point. When John wrote the book of Revelation, he was in a Roman prison and had he used 'Rome' instead of Babylon, they would have burned the pages and they never would have made it out of the prison. I have since comfirmed that it was in fact a well-known practice for the Jews of the Roman era to use the code name Babylon when talking about Rome. So, in Revelation when it mentions Babylon, consider it Rome.

Now, I believe that Rome is going to be distroyed in one hour (nuke) and the whole world will stand far off (because of radiation) and see the smoke rise and they will mourn. The reason they will mourn is because the Vatican (whom I now believe to be the great whore) will be in ruin and so many people believed her lies. I also think this is how the Relious center is moved to Jerusalem and the Temple gets rebuilt. It's all starting to come together now.

The whole time I thought is was litteraly going to be Babylon--Iran, but that didn't make since because they aren't the ones who were so weathy and perverted the world so to speak.

 

[veteran]

I think you're missing my point. When John wrote the book of Revelation, he was in a Roman prison and had he used 'Rome' instead of Babylon, they would have burned the pages and they never would have made it out of the prison. I have since comfirmed that it was in fact a well-known practice for the Jews of the Roman era to use the code name Babylon when talking about Rome. So, in Revelation when it mentions Babylon, consider it Rome.

I didn't miss your point. I'm right on top of it.

Like I said, just because the Jews in that time might... have used Babylon as a symbol for Rome, that's supposed to make it true that Rome is the endtime Babylon of Revelation? You appear to be going on the false assumption that if the Jews said it, that's supposed to give credibility to that Babylon=Rome idea. The Reformers thought the pope was the Antichrist too, and they were wrong. Moreover, those would have to be Christians to even have that idea anyway, since it's an applying of Revelation symbols, and Orthodox Jews don't use Revelation.

Now, I believe that Rome is going to be distroyed in one hour (nuke) and the whole world will stand far off (because of radiation) and see the smoke rise and they will mourn. The reason they will mourn is because the Vatican (whom I now believe to be the great whore) will be in ruin and so many people believed her lies. I also think this is how the Relious center is moved to Jerusalem and the Temple gets rebuilt. It's all starting to come together now.

The whole time I thought is was litteraly going to be Babylon--Iran, but that didn't make since because they aren't the ones who were so weathy and perverted the world so to speak.

JERUSALEM is where God's Word is pointing with the Rev.17 Babylon harlot. Here's why...


Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
(KJV)

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

Rev 13:3-8
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(KJV)

 

[rockytopva]

The timeline...

Seven church ages... (seven is a number of completion)

1. Ephesus - Apostolic
2. Smyrna - Martyrs (Foxes has the persecutions as ten)
3. Pergamos - Orthodox - pyrgos - A fortified structure rising to a considerable height
4. Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate
5. Sardis - Protestant - A sardius, is a precious stone... Elegant yet hard and rigid.
6. Philadelphia - To be sanctified is to have a love towards God and man.
7. Laodicea - The materialistic church

Four horseman - (four is a number of this earth)

1. White - Democracy
2. Red - Communism - Note the sickle on the red flag
3. Black - Islam - Note the reference to high oil prices
***Ezekiel 38 is fulfilled between the third and the fourth horseman. This has to happen for the Islamic countries to support the Anti-Christ.
4. Pale - Anti-Christ - Will reign 3.5 years.

Check into the church of Laodicea...

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;[sup] [/sup]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.[sup] [/sup]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[sup] [/sup]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[sup] [/sup]As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.[sup] [/sup]Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. - Revelation 3:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19


1. Not hot - Nothing loving, warm, and fuzzy here!
2. Sickening - The events here make the Lord sick to his stomach.
3. Materialistic - Thinks that the treasures are in the materialism...
4. Nakedness - Sexually perverted.
5. Eyesalve - Lacking in proper perspective.


Yep... This is today's church alright!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXO8Y0vvWT0

 

[veteran]

Not really even close. One might as well be rolling dice as to come up with those church age theories.

 

[Trekson]

Well, we agree on that one vet.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, kaoticprofit.

I know and God knows I am inserting no words. The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. When God spoke to his prophets he spoke to them in the language they knew and understood. That's also the language they wrote the bible in. All I'm doing is defining those words in the language it was spoken and written in. If it debunks your theory all I can say is reconsider what you believe.

What did you make up?
I've already proven false...

YOUR DEFINITION OF THE WORD LAST and timing of the rapture!

Chavaqquwq (HABAKKUK) - a clasping (of the hands or in embrace); an embrace; a hug!

1:1 This is the prophecy which Chavaqquwq (pronounced "Hah-vah-KOOK") the prophet saw:

2 ADONAI, how long must I cry
without your hearing?
“Violence!” I cry to you,
but you don’t save.
3 Why do you make me see wrongdoing,
why do you permit oppression?
Pillage and cruelty confront me,
so that strife and discord prevail.
4 Therefore Torah is not followed;
justice never gets rendered,
because the wicked fence in the righteous.
This is why justice comes out perverted.

5 “Look around among the nations!
What you see will completely astound you!
For what is going to be done in your days
you will not believe, even when you are told.
6 I am raising up the Kasdim,
that bitter and impetuous nation,
who march far and wide over the earth
to seize homes that are not their own.
7 Fearsome and dreadful they are;
their rules and strength come from themselves.
8 Their horses are swifter than leopards,
fiercer than wolves at night.
Their cavalry gallop in from afar,
flying like vultures rushing to feed.
9 All of them come for violence,
their faces set eagerly forward,
scooping up captives like sand.
10 They scoff at kings;
princes they deride.
They laugh at any fortress;
they pile up earth and take it.
11 Then they sweep on like the wind,
but they become guilty,
because they make their strength their god.”

12 ADONAI, haven’t you existed forever?
My God, my holy one, we will not die.
Adonai, you appointed them to execute judgment.
Rock, you commissioned them to correct us.
13 Your eyes are too pure to see evil,
you cannot countenance oppression.
So why do you countenance traitors?
Why are you silent when evil people
swallow up those more righteous than they?
14 You make people like fish in the sea,
like reptiles that have no ruler.
15 The evil haul them all up with their hooks,
catch them in their fish net,
or gather them in their dragnet.
Then they rejoice and make merry,
16 offering sacrifices to their fishnet
and burning incense to their dragnet;
because through them they live in luxury,
with plenty of food to eat.

17 Should they, therefore, keep emptying their nets?
Should they keep slaughtering the nations without pity?

2:1 I will stand at my watchpost;
I will station myself on the rampart.
I will look to see what [God] will say through me
and what I will answer when I am reproved.

2 Then ADONAI answered me; he said,

“Write down the vision clearly on tablets,
so that even a runner can read it.
3 For the vision is meant for its appointed time;
it speaks of the end, and it does not lie.
It may take a while, but wait for it;
it will surely come, it will not delay.

4 “Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright;
but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.
5 Truly, wine is treacherous;
the arrogant will not live at peace
but keeps expanding his desires like Sh’ol;
like death, he can never be satisfied;
he keeps collecting all the nations for himself,
rallying to himself all the peoples.
6 Won’t all these take up taunting him
and say about him, in mocking riddles,
‘Woe to him who amasses other people’s wealth! —
how long must it go on? —
and to him who adds to himself the weight
of goods taken in pledge!
7 Won’t your own creditors suddenly stand,
won’t those who make you tremble wake up?
You will become their spoil.
8 Because you plundered many nations,
all the rest of the peoples will plunder you;
because of the bloodshed and violence done
to the land, the city and all who live there.

9 “‘Woe to him who seeks unjust gain for his household,
putting his nest on the heights,
in order to be safe from the reach of harm.
10 By scheming to destroy many peoples,
you have brought shame to your house
and forfeited your life.
11 For the very stones will cry out from the wall,
and a beam in the framework will answer them.

12 “‘Woe to him who builds a city with blood
and founds a town on injustice,
13 so that people toil for what will be burned up,
and nations exhaust themselves to no purpose.
Isn’t all this from ADONAI-Tzva’ot?
14 For the earth will be as full
of the knowledge of ADONAI'S glory
as water covering the sea.

15 “‘Woe to him who has his neighbor drink,
adds his own poison and makes him drunk,
in order to see him naked.
16 You are filled with shame, not glory.
You, drink too, and stagger!
The cup of Adonai’s right hand
will be turned against you;
your shame will exceed your glory.
17 For the violence done to the L’vanon
will overwhelm you,
and the destruction of the wild animals
will terrify you;
because of the bloodshed and violence done
to the land, the city and all who live there.’”

18 What good is an idol, once its maker has shaped it,
a cast metal image and a teacher of lies,
that its maker puts his trust in it,
and goes on making non-gods, unable to talk?
19 Woe to him who tells a piece of wood, “Wake up!”
or a speechless stone, “Rouse yourself!”
Can this thing teach? Why, it’s covered with gold and silver,
without the slightest breath in it!
20 But ADONAI is in his holy temple;
let all the earth be silent before him.

3:1 This is a prayer of Chavaqquwq the prophet (on musical instruments called shigyonot).

2 ADONAI, I have heard the report about you.
ADONAI, I am awed by your deeds.
Bring your work to life in our own age,
make it known in our own time;
but in anger, remember compassion.
3 God comes from Teman,
the Holy One from Mount Pa’ran. (Selah)
His splendor covers the sky,
and his praise fills the earth.
4 His brightness is like the sun,
rays come forth from his hand —
that is where his power is concealed.
5 Before him goes pestilence,
and close behind, the plague.
6 When he stands up, the earth shakes;
when he looks, the nations tremble,
the eternal mountains are smashed to pieces,
the ancient hills sink down;
the ancient paths are his.
7 I saw trouble in the tents of Kushan
and the tent hangings shaking in the land of Midyan.

8 ADONAI, is it against the rivers,
against the rivers that your anger is inflamed?
Is your fury directed at the sea?
Is that why you ride on your horses,
and drive your chariots to victory?
9 You brandish your naked bow
and order it filled with arrows. (Selah)
You split the earth with rivers.
10 The mountains see you and tremble;
a torrent of water streams by;
the deep thunders forth,
as it raises enormous waves.
11 The sun and moon stand still in the sky
at the light of your arrows speeding by,
at the gleam of your glittering spear.
12 In fury you stride across the land,
in anger you trample the nations.
13 You come out to save your people,
to save your anointed one;
you crush the head of the house of the wicked,
uncovering its foundation all the way to the neck.
14 With their own rods you pierce the head of their warriors,
who come like a whirlwind to scatter us,
who rejoice at the prospect
of devouring the poor in secret.
15 You tread down the sea with your horses,
churning up the mighty waters.

16 When I heard, my whole body trembled,
my lips shook at the sound;
weakness overcame my limbs,
my legs gave way beneath me.
But I wait calmly for the day of trouble,
when it comes upon our assailants.
17 For even if the fig tree doesn’t blossom,
and no fruit is on the vines,
even if the olive tree fails to produce,
and the fields yield no food at all,
even if the sheep vanish from the sheep pen,
and there are no cows in the stalls;
18 still, I will rejoice in ADONAI,
I will take joy in the God of my salvation.
19 ELOHIM Adonai is my strength!
He makes me swift and sure-footed as a deer
and enables me to stride over my high places.

For the leader. With my stringed instruments.
CJB

The Hebrew of Hab. 1:9 is...

9 Kuloh l-chaamaac yaavow' mgammat pneeyhem qaadiymaah vaye'ecof kachowl sheviy:

9 Kuloh = 9 All
l-chaamaac = to/for-violence
yaavow' = they-shall-come
mgammat = accumulation-of
pneeyhem = their-faces
qaadiymaah = the-east-wind
vaye'ecof = and-they-shall-gather
kachowl = like-sand
sheviy: = captivity:

9 All to/for-violence they-shall-come accumulation-of their-faces the-east-wind and-they-shall-gather like-sand captivity:

9 They all shall come for violence; the accumulation of their faces shall gather captivity like the east wind (gathers) sand.

Sorry, but I just don't see any justification for the translation being what you include in your signature block. The word you say should be translated "sup up" actually means "accumulation-of," "mgammat," which has the singular, feminine, construct ending. Also, it's a noun, not a verb.

So, you DID insert words that are not there in the Hebrew, both times within the parentheses, "(the jihadist)" and "(five times a day)," neither of which is in the text. I included the entire text of the prophecy of Chavaqquwq so you could see that this short book is about the captivity of the Kasdiym (the Babylonians) and is a fulfilled prophecy. While some of the prophecy may still be fulfilled more completely in the future (the underlined portions), I do not see this prophecy addressing Islam.

 

[revturmoil]

So, you DID insert words that are not there in the Hebrew, both times within the parentheses, "(the jihadist)" and "(five times a day)," neither of which is in the text. I included the entire text of the prophecy of Chavaqquwq so you could see that this short book is about the captivity of the Kasdiym (the Babylonians) and is a fulfilled prophecy. While some of the prophecy may still be fulfilled more completely in the future (the underlined portions), I do not see this prophecy addressing Islam.

Complicate things any more and you win the prize big time!
Let me put it to you this way Retro.

It's uncertain when Habukkuk wrote this. But it had to be at a time when Habukkuk knew the Babylonian's were coming since the Northern kingdom had already been taken by Assyria.

That being the case why would he say what he did in verse 5 if he was aware of their impending doom?,
Habakkuk 1:5 ¶Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

One commentator said,
Habakkuk seems to assume that the Babylonians have already established a reputation by the time of his writing (cf. 1:6-11, 15-17; 2:5-17); this would have occurred after the battle of Carchemish; this may support a date of 605 for the writing of Habakkuk
Commenting on this possibility Chisholm writes, "However, if Habakkuk prophesied while the Babylonians were actually marching toward Judah, one wonders why the announcement of Judah’s downfall at their hands would have been so unbelievable to his audience (1:5).

http://preceptaustin...ommentaries.htm

This is very likely a prophecy with a dual fulfillment and many of the commentary's I read say's the same thing. And did you forget!!!

For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

It's no different than someone telling me that the harlot is apostate Christianity, or that America is the beast. I'm speculating but I'm not changing the meaning of any terms in the text. In fact the words I use to describe the text are very accurate. And since Habakkuk is both future and past, just like Daniel 9 is as well as several other prophecies, I believe I'm right and I take full responsibility for it!

I know that Habukkuk 1 is all about Islamic terrorism. It'll light up like a christmas tree after the next 911.

They shall come all for violence: And the main reason for that violence is world domination. Just as the text describes.

As we speak, nearly every place on earth where there is war, civil war, and persecution of Christians and Jews, beheadings, suicide bombings, honor killings, it is all commited by the hands of Muslims. And we haven't seen anything yet! How many friends did you lose on Sept. 11???

There are more jihadist on the planet today than any time since the birth of Islam. In our day there is no other religion that wants to kill Jews and Christian's more than the Islamist. And no people who want to see Israel exterminated more than the Arabs! The Babylonian's are the ones God said He would raise up in the last days. Muslim's are the only ones on the planet who by the millions face east and bow to an idol as their faces 'sup up as the east wind' 5 times a dayl! n They are also the only ones on the planet capable of accomplising the violence and terror described in Habukkuk over night. They are dreadful and terrible because they are a primitive religion that will use biological and nuclear weapons as a means of getting the world to apostasize to Islam.

It'll amaze you how it describes Islamic terrorism. I find it interesting what 'sup up' means. It mean's an accumulation... of hordes or an assembling...which is precisely what Muslim's do together worldwide as their faces bow toward Mecca. And make sure you read what Gesenius say's on the link.

their faces shall sup up [as] the east wind,
http://www.bluelette...m?strongs=H4041

and they shall gather the captivity as the sand. This may not only mean Islam's goal of world domination. But
after the ten nation Islamic empire of the beast is formed, all those within it will become captives to the beast.

Please read the book of Habukkuk and keep in mind terrorism of our day. This is the most neglected prophecy of our day. Habukkuk has a bunch of questions and complaints.

1 This is the message that the prophet Habakkuk received in a vision.

Habakkuk’s Complaint
2 How long, O Lord, must I call for help?
But you do not listen!
"Violence is everywhere!" I cry,
but you do not come to save.
3 Must I forever see these evil deeds?
Why must I watch all this misery?
Wherever I look,
I see destruction and violence.
I am surrounded by people
who love to argue and fight.
4 The law has become paralyzed,
and there is no justice in the courts.
The wicked far outnumber the righteous,
so that justice has become perverted.

The Lord’s Reply

5 The Lord replied,

"Look around at the nations;
look and be amazed![a]
For I am doing something in your own day,
something you wouldn’t believe
even if someone told you about it.
6 I am raising up the Babylonians,[b]
a cruel and violent people.
They will march across the world
and conquer other lands.
7 They are notorious for their cruelty
and do whatever they like.
8 Their horses are swifter than cheetahs[c]
and fiercer than wolves at dusk.
Their charioteers charge from far away.
Like eagles, they swoop down to devour their prey.

9 "On they come, all bent on violence.
Their hordes advance like a desert wind,
sweeping captives ahead of them like sand.
10 They scoff at kings and princes
and scorn all their fortresses.
They simply pile ramps of earth
against their walls and capture them!
11 They sweep past like the wind
and are gone.
But they are deeply guilty,
for their own strength is their god."

Habakkuk’s Second Complaint

12 O Lord my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal—
surely you do not plan to wipe us out?
O Lord, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us,
to punish us for our many sins.
13 But you are pure and cannot stand the sight of evil.
Will you wink at their treachery?
Should you be silent while the wicked
swallow up people more righteous than they?

14 Are we only fish to be caught and killed?
Are we only sea creatures that have no leader?
15 Must we be strung up on their hooks
and caught in their nets while they rejoice and celebrate?
16 Then they will worship their nets
and burn incense in front of them.
"These nets are the gods who have made us rich!"
they will claim.
17 Will you let them get away with this forever?
Will they succeed forever in their heartless conquests?

Habakkuk 2

New Living Translation (NLT)

2 I will climb up to my watchtower
and stand at my guardpost.
There I will wait to see what the Lord says
and how he[a] will answer my complaint.

The Lord’s Second Reply

2 Then the Lord said to me,

"Write my answer plainly on tablets,
so that a runner can carry the correct message to others.
3 This vision is for a future time.
It describes the end, and it will be fulfilled.
If it seems slow in coming, wait patiently,
for it will surely take place.
It will not be delayed.

4 "Look at the proud!
They trust in themselves, and their lives are crooked.
But the righteous will live by their faithfulness to God.[b]
5 Wealth[c] is treacherous,
and the arrogant are never at rest.
They open their mouths as wide as the grave,[d]
and like death, they are never satisfied.
In their greed they have gathered up many nations
and swallowed many peoples.

6 "But soon their captives will taunt them.
They will mock them, saying,
‘What sorrow awaits you thieves!
Now you will get what you deserve!
You’ve become rich by extortion,
but how much longer can this go on?’
7 Suddenly, your debtors will take action.
They will turn on you and take all you have,
while you stand trembling and helpless.
8 Because you have plundered many nations,
now all the survivors will plunder you.
You committed murder throughout the countryside
and filled the towns with violence.

9 "What sorrow awaits you who build big houses
with money gained dishonestly!
You believe your wealth will buy security,
putting your family’s nest beyond the reach of danger.
10 But by the murders you committed,
you have shamed your name and forfeited your lives.
11 The very stones in the walls cry out against you,
and the beams in the ceilings echo the complaint.

12 "What sorrow awaits you who build cities
with money gained through murder and corruption!
13 Has not the Lord of Heaven’s Armies promised
that the wealth of nations will turn to ashes?
They work so hard,
but all in vain!
14 For as the waters fill the sea,
the earth will be filled with an awareness
of the glory of the Lord.

15 "What sorrow awaits you who make your neighbors drunk!
You force your cup on them
so you can gloat over their shameful nakedness.
16 But soon it will be your turn to be disgraced.
Come, drink and be exposed![e]
Drink from the cup of the Lord’s judgment,
and all your glory will be turned to shame.
17 You cut down the forests of Lebanon.
Now you will be cut down.
You destroyed the wild animals,
so now their terror will be yours.
You committed murder throughout the countryside
and filled the towns with violence.

18 "What good is an idol carved by man,
or a cast image that deceives you?
How foolish to trust in your own creation—
a god that can’t even talk!
19 What sorrow awaits you who say to wooden idols,
‘Wake up and save us!’
To speechless stone images you say,
‘Rise up and teach us!’
Can an idol tell you what to do?
They may be overlaid with gold and silver,
but they are lifeless inside.
20 But the Lord is in his holy Temple.
Let all the earth be silent before him."

New Living Translation (NLT)

Habakkuk’s Prayer

3 This prayer was sung by the prophet Habakkuk[a]:

2 I have heard all about you, Lord.
I am filled with awe by your amazing works.
In this time of our deep need,
help us again as you did in years gone by.
And in your anger,
remember your mercy.

3 I see God moving across the deserts from Edom,[b]
the Holy One coming from Mount Paran.[c]
His brilliant splendor fills the heavens,
and the earth is filled with his praise.
4 His coming is as brilliant as the sunrise.
Rays of light flash from his hands,
where his awesome power is hidden.
5 Pestilence marches before him;
plague follows close behind.
6 When he stops, the earth shakes.
When he looks, the nations tremble.
He shatters the everlasting mountains
and levels the eternal hills.
He is the Eternal One!
7 I see the people of Cushan in distress,
and the nation of Midian trembling in terror.

8 Was it in anger, Lord, that you struck the rivers
and parted the sea?
Were you displeased with them?
No, you were sending your chariots of salvation!
9 You brandished your bow
and your quiver of arrows.
You split open the earth with flowing rivers.
10 The mountains watched and trembled.
Onward swept the raging waters.
The mighty deep cried out,
lifting its hands to the Lord.
11 The sun and moon stood still in the sky
as your brilliant arrows flew
and your glittering spear flashed.

12 You marched across the land in anger
and trampled the nations in your fury.
13 You went out to rescue your chosen people,
to save your anointed ones.
You crushed the heads of the wicked
and stripped their bones from head to toe.
14 With his own weapons,
you destroyed the chief of those
who rushed out like a whirlwind,
thinking Israel would be easy prey.
15 You trampled the sea with your horses,
and the mighty waters piled high.

16 I trembled inside when I heard this;
my lips quivered with fear.
My legs gave way beneath me,[d]
and I shook in terror.
I will wait quietly for the coming day
when disaster will strike the people who invade us.
17 Even though the fig trees have no blossoms,
and there are no grapes on the vines;
even though the olive crop fails,
and the fields lie empty and barren;
even though the flocks die in the fields,
and the cattle barns are empty,
18 yet I will rejoice in the Lord!
I will be joyful in the God of my salvation!
19 The Sovereign Lord is my strength!
He makes me as surefooted as a deer,[e]
able to tread upon the heights.

 

[tgwprophet]

Hmmmmm..... Babylon used as code for Rome... VERY useful knowledge if true. That does not mean i think this is false, it means I will need more information and different origins for re-proof. Validated, it means allot, thanks for that post!!!

If validated, I will have to research my own writings to see if that means I must correct errors in my teachings.
I do not mind being wrong though I strive to be correct;.

 

[veteran]

The Babylon = Rome idea is just more of the SDA junk.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran, it does make sense that being in a Rome prison and writing bad things about Rome without using a code could have increased persecution as well as destruction of the writings. However, I do expect God would have protected those scriptures no matter how many angels it would have required, that no code was needed.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, it does make sense that being in a Rome prison and writing bad things about Rome without using a code could have increased persecution as well as destruction of the writings. However, I do expect God would have protected those scriptures no matter how many angels it would have required, that no code was needed.

Pagan era Rome wasn't the only area of existence for Christ's Church and the NT Gospels and Letters.

The suggestion that the Jews in Rome used 'Babylon' as symbolic language for Rome, and thus means so, is speculation with no Biblical support, nothing more, nothing less.