Behold
Well-Known Member
Calvinism is not Christianity.
Its a cult teaching that perverts faith and spits on God's Grace.
LIMITED ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)
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Calvinism is not Christianity.
Its a cult teaching that perverts faith and spits on God's Grace.
You cant hear unless you are saved and have the Spirit of God abiding in you. Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Looks like you spitting on the Truth of Jn 1:29 that the world there is saved from sin, that its been removed, taken away by the Lamb of God !
Behold
Well-Known Member
If you were saved, then there is no need to hear the Gospel.
So, if you can't understand that Salvation comes from Believing the Gospel, and you have to hear it.. to believe it........
See, You can't be saved, having never heard it... so, your theology, is not related to common sense, or Christianity.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Calvin is a demonic Cross denying teacher.
Its doubtful that he was born again.
Hebrews 13:9, says that people like Calvin will take your mind and twist it away from God's Salvation, ....they'll have you caught up in a "doctrine of Devil's', and God knows that Calvin was a extreme deceiver.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus is given to the world to redeem it from Sin. John 3:16-17
God conditions this on "all that believe".
If you dont believe, Jesus said you "will die in your sins"
John 8:24
and you'll face God as eternal Judge...
John 3:36
Thats the reason to hear the Gospel, when it informs you of your salvation. Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
One cant hear the Gospel of their [possessive] salvation until they are saved. He that is of God [saved] hears Gods words Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Your thinking is warped and backwards on this issue.
You are speaking against Gods Truth, not calvin, May God have mercy on you in your ignorance friend.
Jesus died only for His Sheep world. You dont believe Jn 3:16-17 and theres no conditions stipulated, that's your false statement.
Only those people who Christ didnt die for, shall die in their sins in unbelief, they dont believe because they are not His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
What an absolutely SILLY remark. And no repentance at all. Calvin gave you the truth but you hate the truth.
The world in Jn 1:29 has no sin and its given repentance, repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand, Jesus gives them both to them He saves Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
This is limited to The world of His elect whom sins He taketh away. When Jesus takes away our sins, He not only takes away the guilt of sin, but the power of sin, so its written Rom 11:26-27
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The Christ of scripture, who you obviously know nothing of Him, Those He died for have their sins forgiven and are given repentance from ungodliness !
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well the bible says man was created with free will but lost that free will when Adam fell. All of us are born slaves to sin and incapable of pleasing God in and of ourselves. romans 6 makes it clear we are all slaves to sin. that is not independent will.
This is a bold face lie! I have read Calvins Institutes of the Christian Religion and He most definitely teaches Jesus became human. someone fed you bad lies.
And false teachings are based on a reinterpretation of what is written. This is what Christianity starting in the late 2nd century fell prey to. this the need for the reformation and its slow crawl out of the darkness of false doctrine.
Sorry but history and Scripture prove you wrong! From Creation to some time pre-flood they knew of God but then the knowledge of God drifted away. Then around the time of the dispersal at Babel they drifted away from the knowledge of God and as the nations were formed after that the nation of the true god slowly vanished. Paul confirms this in ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:11-12
King James Version
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Paul also declares not all have a knowledge of the true god in romans 10:
Romans 10:11-17
King James Version
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Also I think you meant Romans 1:18-24 and you must remember that Paul is writing a historical overview not present day though this is still going on.
but you failed to answer the question of how the untold billio0ns who have never heard the gospel of salvation once or the name Jesus once have a chance of salvation as the bible says there is only way to be saved.
But you do! the five points of biblical Calvinism were written to rebut the initial 5 points of Armenianism at the Council of Dort. son these five points people are known for their Armenian or Calvinistic persuasion. that is why colloquially people are known as 3 or 4 or 5 point Cavlinists.
Well please show where you think Paul disagrees . Just saying it is totally inadequate.
Well I await this not difficult showing of why Calvinism is wrong biblically.
but first I would appreciate your understanding of what the five points are of Calvinism. Most I have discussed with usually speak of the heresies of hyper calvinism.
Ronald N
Where Ronald, I have never seen where the bible said man was created with a freewill, and I have been studying scripture for the past 40 years, but I may have overlooked it, please show it to me.
I read scriptures like Jer 10:23
23 O Lord, I know that the way of man[āḏām] is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
The word way is the word dereḵ and means:
of course of life, or action, undertakings
Where Ronald, I have never seen where the bible said man was created with a freewill, and I have been studying scripture for the past 40 years, but I may have overlooked it, please show it to me.
I read scriptures like Jer 10:23
23 O Lord, I know that the way of man[āḏām] is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
The word way is the word dereḵ and means:
of course of life, or action, undertakings
The whole world that Jesus died for and is the propitiation for, is always those He is an advocate for with the Father 1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Now is He the advocate for the whole world that lieth in wicked one 5:19
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness
An advocate Jesus is,
so of Christ, in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins,
That Pardon is on a Just Ground, His Righteousness Imputed to them. for of God, He has been made unto them Righteousness.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Now is He the advocate for the whole world that lieth in wicked one 5:19
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness
An advocate Jesus is,
so of Christ, in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins,
That Pardon is on a Just Ground, His Righteousness Imputed to them. for of God, He has been made unto them Righteousness.
Scripture never indicates that man lost his free will. Free will to serve God. Rom 1:18-24 alludes to the same thing. Man actually needs to make an effort to actually deny the knowledge of God. We also have many who were called righteous in the OT. They are not righteous because God forced them to become righteous, but by their own free will. The Holy Spirit was working in the age before Christ, though not inward, but upon those of the OT. The fact that Mary, was righteous and choose to accept that she would bear Christ.
Making blanket statements such as you did negates the rest of scripture to the contrary. The fact is man chooses to be slaves to sin or to righteousness.
Saying he teaches Christ became human means nothing when the theology he espouses denies the Incarnation. His doctrines of predestination, and election, and limited atonement are direct denials of the efficaciousness of the Incarnation. You even denied it with your total misunderstanding of the fall in relation to Christ correcting that fall, I Cor 15:20-22. The statement you made about the fall also is incorrect based on scripture. If that is what Calvin believed, then I understand his total misunderstanding of the Incarnation. It seems to be just incidental.
Yes, all false teachings are based on scripture. The west under the RC didn't accept the false teachings of Augustine until Anselm in the 11th century when he embodied both the concept of Original Sin and developed the Satisfaction theory of atonement.
Actually the Church had false teaching described by Paul by Hymenaeus and Philetus. As well as teachings ascribed to men like Apollo.
However, when false teachers/teachings occured and they impacted the faithful, a Council, like the one described in
Acts 15 would be called to determine the correct meaning of scripture. In other words they followed the teachings of the Holy Spirit/Paul as in I Tim 3:15.
Protestantism when even further astray than the RC. They adopted some the false teachings of the RC, then man every man his own interpreter of scripture which gave birth to hundreds of denominations who all differ between themselves on some point. Hardly the original gospel, once given and preserved within the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. They have been debating the merits for 500 years so far. Do you think they might come together in any shape or form?
You have confirmed what I stated. Most men chose to deny the knowledge of God and went their own way. Flood destroyed them and then by the time of Abraham a different dispensation was needed. Even the Isrealites forgot God with even more divine intervention.
And we come to the current state and most are again denying Christ.
Where does he say not all have the knowledge of God in these verses?
Correct, thanks.
As I stated Rom 1:18-24 is applicable to all human beings in the most elementary level. There could be some Australian Aborigine who could be saved through what is known as natural theology. You have those in the OT. But I mentioned this to you earlier which means you don't think Abraham, Noah were saved, nor Moses, Elijah, or David, or many others of the OT. You do believe that Jesus is also God even though Jesus, Christ is never mentioned in the OT.
To have 1 or 2 points of Calvinism is impossible without holding to the rest. I see them as inextricably linked together. But then everyone has their own personal interpretation. They don't necessarily need to be consistent.
Rom 1:18-24, the entire OT does not speak of the gospel, does not mention either Jesus or Christ.
Total depravity. Scripture never teaches that man is totally incapable of finding God or responding to God. I already gave you the texts, Rom 1:18-24. He also never lost his free will, as you have already stated also.
Unconditional election. There is no verse in scripture that ever states that persons were predestined to be believers. There are six examples of election is scripture. Three are persons, Jacob, Christ and Paul. Three groups were elected, Israel OT, the Church NT, the disciples. None were elected to salvation, but to perform a service.
Limited atonement. Denies the Incarnation whereby Christ by His human nature defeated death by His resurrection for all of humanity and well as the physical world. And performed a sacrifice for the sins of the world. Heb 2:9, I John 2:2 are good summaries, as is I Cor 15:20-22.
Irresistable grace. From Adam to current believers, man by virtue of his free will can deny God's call as well as his status as a believer. There are many texts already given to you, but the parable of the sower, prodigal son, Unfaithful servant, and every text that exhorts believers to remain faithful. One does not have finitely salvation in this life, it is an inheritance given at the end of life, I Pet 1:3-5.
Perseverance of the saints. Same texts that show man can resist God's grace can be used here.
See above. If that is Calvinism just what is hyer-Calvinism, How could it be even worse.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
And they would be wrong since God knows the future. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a Book of Life that existed before the foundation of the world with all who will be saved written in it. His knowledge is perfect and complete, His plan is perfect and complete, but our knowledge of His plan is limited.
So we are made with a limited perception of this knowledge, ignorant of the future and therefore should only perceive that all are invited. We don't know who the reprobates are, so we must approach a salvation for all as possible. We must spread the gospel to all. The seeds are scattered all over the place, on rocky soil, shallow soil and fertile soil.
Again, with our limited knowledge and ignorance to the future we must maintain this attitude and hope for everyone, but course we know that many will not make it. God wants us all to know that He "desires all men to come to Him". At times He reveals who the reprobates are, cities or nations that will fall, but we are to have an attitude that anyone can be saved.
No need to create a hypothetical like that. God knows the future and wrote names in the Book of Life.
Well again, only God knows who will not make it. We are to believe that He offers salvation to all and that some resist and reject His offer. Otherwise, man could not be responsible for rejecting God. We are all responsible for our sins; but if we were not given the opportunity to receive Christ at any time, as all who are saved were; then we could not be judged for rejecting Christ - which to me is the greatest sin. This is the cold reality but a damned but just defense: "You made me this way"! And that would be a fair argument. Actually God does form some lumps of clay for beauty and others for waste. Btw, I don't really think the souls in Hades will have any detailed, long trial as such, just a quick judgment, no trial, no defense. The Bible says we have one life, kne death and then the judgment. It also says many are already judged in this life, apparently the reprobates - unbeknownst to them or us.
We see people with miserable lives that just seem to get worse and then they die.
I kind of think guys like Stephen Hawking were judged long before they died. He never believed in God and sought many ways to explain the universe to his death. I suppose he was one of those lumps of clay. A genius whom God confounded and made an example out of, a fool.
Absolutely.
Technically, but that is a moot point. The eternal power of the sacrifice is capable of encompassing all sins, but all sins will not be forgiven. It doesn't mean God's power of atonement was limited. I do think Calvin's mind was limited. He tried to summarize God's plan of salvation by putting it into a nice neat box. He would have to have omniscience to explain it properly and so I think TULIP really fails in many respects to explain God's ways which are above ours. It was kind of arrogant and high minded to attempt this. The Bible tells us we only know in part.
True, but maybe we should instead think of what it offers the world, not just a portion of the world. The greatest act of love should generate a positive hope for all.
How do souls in Hades think and feel? Likely they feel they missed the mark. They were either offered eternal life and they rejected it; OR they were just created with no hope available, nor purpose other than to contribute to evil and be discarded as trash, then burned up.
That's wrong. He chose the disciples, whom He secured 11 of them.
We should have that attitude and approach.
Wrong, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. He doesn't change His mind. Even we can't separate ourselves from the love of God.
Both views have flaws.
I don't think they think that way, especially when the Bible tells us the gate is narrow and wide is the path to destruction.
As you can see, I am not on either side of the coin,
Most people are not on just one side, but a TOPIC really requires a strong opening position for people to agree or disagree with if it is to generate any real "debate" (in the academic meaning of the term). So I selected one side and defended it, then invited challenge to the position.
"I think everyone has some truth" is a milk-toast road to vapid ecumenicism and away from any REAL Biblical Truth.
Here are some TRUTHS worth arguing about:
- God chooses men, men do not choose God.
- Faith comes from God, not from the human heart.
- Men are born corrupted and require a radical transformation ('new heart', 'born again', 'new man' ... choose your Biblical Term of preference).
- God has chosen some from every nation, tribe tongue and people - a multitude too great to count - ("everyone without distinction" but not "everyone without exception.")
- God's WRATH and JUSTICE is as real as His LOVE and MERCY ... God is ALL, not either/or.
"Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it.” - Hermann Hesse
... you lack wisdom and reject knowledge.
No one can come to Me [ T ]
unless the Father who sent Me [ U ]
draws him, [ I ]
and I will raise him up on the last day. [ P ]
- John 6:44 [four of the 5 points of TULIP in a single verse]
Does John 6:44 also "pervert faith and spit on God's Grace"?
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Behold
Well-Known Member
The verse says that the person is 'drawn".
God the Father is in Heaven. So, This would be the Holy Spirit that "draws" the person, to Jesus.
The Cross is Drawing "ALL People" to Christ for 2000 yrs.
How?
Jesus said, "if i be lifted up (on the Cross) I will Draw ALL"...
See that? That is Christ in your verse, who is Drawing.......ALL.
But here is how that functions..
Even tho Christ and the Cross are always given, always calling, always drawing....through the Holy Spirit, not all will come.
Listen...
Churches, every Sunday, ..... many of them, offer the congregation an "alter call".
This is very common in Protestant churches, worldwide.
A minister of the Gospel, would speak/proclaim the Gospel to the congregation, knowing there are those who are not saved, not born again.
We MINISTER the word of Reconciliation.. 2 Corinthians 5:19
We OFFER The Grace of God. , which is "The Gift of Salvation".
We Preach """Christ crucified""" 1 Corinthians 1:23. for the sin of the world, so that these unsaved people might hear the Gospel, and come to Christ.
See.....= "FAITH comes by hearing" the Gospel.
You have to hear it to believe it.
This Faith happens to some, but it does not happen to them all, even tho they all heard the same word being preached in the same room, atpollard
God offers.
Faith elects.
Everyone has Free Will, and they decide.
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