How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Lizbeth]

Why would Paul be saved as by fire? Because an all consuming fire burnt up all the wood, hay and stubble. Cleansed. That is the only way you can say ….Paul was not building on the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble. Which I agree. Never said he was. Maybe I have misunderstood the disagreements and what those disagreements are. I thought it was being said the one saved by fire is saved (a child) but lost his rewards of maturity. As if loosing wood, hay and stubble is losing rewards. Maybe it is me not making sense. All I meant was I don’t see Paul against saying he suffered loss and was save by an all consuming fire. Enough said. We disagree and that is fine.

I just see two different points of instruction being conveyed in the two passages. Sure there are similarities as all truth is cohesive and harmonious, I think as long as that doesn't distract or lead us away from the specific points being conveyed for our edification.

 

[Lizbeth]

When one dont even believe one has to believe n CHRIST , how on earth are they then gonna teach anyone how to follow HIM .
THEY dont follow Him . IF they did , they would have KNOWN HE was and is the ONLY WAY TO GOD . They would
have taught , said , or preached BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS the only name whereby you can be saved .

Amen. That is what Jesus and the apostles did, they preached Christ and the need to believe on Him to be saved. I can only surmise that some people must believe they know better than Jesus and the apostles.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What was in Paul's past has no bearing on his rewards in Heaven. God puts everyone's past behind Him. But again you love to mishmash Scriptures and get all confused.

Why did what was in his past have no bearing? Having passed from death unto Life? It is by the same Spirit that was in Christ we come boldly before the throne of God to ask for Grace in our time of need. If there has been no baptism of that same tried and true Spirit(Fire) that was in Christ…then would we be able to come “boldly” before the Throne of God? Or does the wood, hay, and stubble hold us back as men won’t come to the light that their deeds be made manifest, knowing those deeds of evil —they reject coming to the Light instead loving their own darkness over the Light.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I just see two different points of instruction being conveyed in the two passages. Sure there are similarities as all truth is cohesive and harmonious, I think as long as that doesn't distract or lead us away from the specific points being conveyed for our edification.

I don’t know what to say. Is there a little agreement in there but then quoting

Amen. That is what Jesus and the apostles did, they preached Christ and the need to believe on Him to be saved. I can only surmise that some people must believe they know better than Jesus and the apostles.

I assume I am one of those “some people”…so how is the little slight agreement (if there was one) genuine?

 

[Lizbeth]

Trying to think of what to tell you. That is how I read the passage and I am sharing with you how I read it. Not to put you down but I want you to be encouraged. You said “there is no baptism of fire” Christ said “I will baptize you with fire”. To prepare, to cleanse, to remove the “wood, hay, stubble”. That is a blessing. To be found in Him (tried) not having our own righteousness but the righteousness (tried and true and sure) that comes from God. But at the same time, many turn away. Consider when He told them you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. Many were offended and turned from Him.

I think you misunderstood me by loss of all things. I’m not suggesting a show of outward appearances to try to be saved. I’m suggesting. “Oh God please search my heart! Let my heart be tried and the hay, stubble and wood be burned.” If Paul had not been baptized by the fire Christ baptizes with…then we would still be talking about the wood, hay, and stubble of Saul. We would be talking about a Pharisees fanatic persecuting Jesus Christ. Because that was the wood, hay, and stubble “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” “WHO are you?” “I am Jesus of Nazareth.”

I thought of other verses last night in regards to tested and tried by fire, the baptism of Christ…for example you must lose house, father, mother, even your own life, or you can not be my disciple. Or he who saves his life will loose it, he who looses his life will find it. —but I didn’t post them because it would surely appear I was promoting…being good enough to earn deliverance. Often those passages are turned into a man who leaves his family to go minister saying God told him to forsake his family to minister. To me that IS NOT what those verses mean but instead the man is leaving and abandoning his family to chase his own image…not Christ. (Or that is my opinion which I’m only sharing with you to clarify) …as also pastors who crave the attention and status of leading a church but won’t be bothered with leading their family. That is a lot of opinion from me and maybe I’m wrong but still those passage from Christ still say there will be loss with persecutions but what is gained is a better; tried and true.

Still I love those verses I keep going on about. To me they are hopeful and not accusing. To me Paul still fits there to a tee… having suffered the loss of all things to win Christ. The same Spirit that was in Christ in Paul. Indeed tested and tried by fire and found: sure. That same Spirit Becoming the corner stone of the foundation laid in Christ.

I don't disagree with everything you are saying in principle. But just a point about warnings. Warnings in scripture are spiritual and are for our good when we take them to heart. The passage in 2 Cor 3 is warning of undesirable consequences of building with wood/hay/stubble. If we try to turn that and other passages that warn into something "hopeful" we will lose the "salt" of it and render it powerless to help us avoid what it is warning against. The heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it? We NEED the warnings of scripture. That is why they were written.

 

[Lizbeth]

I assume I am one of those “some people”…so how is the little slight agreement (if there was one) genuine?

I wasn't referring to you...I don't know what your theology is on needing faith in Christ to be saved.

Though I would say that rendering warnings into something "hopeful" might be a way of thinking we know better than the Author of said warnings who inspired them for the purpose of WARNING. They are only hopeful if we take them to heart as warnings and avoid doing what they are warning against. Test the spirits sister!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If we try to turn that and other passages that warn into something "hopeful" we will lose the "salt" of it and render it powerless to help us avoid what it is warning against.

No no no… that would be like turning Christ’s own words of loss but gaining so much more…into “powerless to help us”

You fear: “We will lose the “salt”
When salt has lost its savour…men cast it out as no good. Not fit for anything. Not fit for the kingdom. Not fit neither for the dung heap. If salt has lost its taste?
Where then will the salt get its savour? From Christ.
Psalm 34:1-11 I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. [2] My soul shall make her boast in the Lord : the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad. [3] O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together. [4] I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears. [5] They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. [6] This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. [7] The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them. [8] O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. [9] O fear the Lord, you his saints: for there is no want (lack)to them that fear him. [10] The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing. [11] Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Savour …the salt, taste… “it has lost its taste!” “It is weird…strange. why don’t they walk with us anymore?”
2 Corinthians 2:14-17 Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ, and makes manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: [16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? Christ. [17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is a strawman...or it is based on a lack of reading skills. No one is saying that the foundation isn't Christ. The bible describes how we are to build on that foundation.

Yeah, Reading skills. No one said someone was saying the foundation is not Christ. All I was doing was breaking the passage down. If you were not so busy trying to defend yourself. You might be able to see that.

You are confusing a future judgment and what we are to do now to be assured of a better outcome on that day. This is about wisdom. I don't expect many to get that.

I am not confusing anything, I am just stating what the passage says. On THAT DAY, our works will be tried by fire..

He will suffer loss if his works are burned up. There will be a downgrading of a person's salvation by either being sent into the nations or else being cast away into outer darkness.

lol. Cast to outer darkness? That person was not saved.. so how was his salvation downgraded? It said he will still be rescued (saved) even as through fire. I explained that yesterday how a man escapes his burning house. But he loses everything he had.. Still he was saved out of the fire or through fire.

It depends HOW we build. You are not reading at a high enough level to understand the meaning of the text.

You not showing me how I am wrong in what I am saying,

This is plainly a bad reading. You are doing the usual dance around the narrative. We are to be careful HOW we build. The flesh wants a guarantee that EVERY work will be accepted. But God doesn't respect the ego aspirations of "believers."

lol. It does not matter what the flesh wants, The people who are Gods children WILL have their works tried by fire.. We are tried for what we did. Not for what we are doing

Some to honour, and glory and others to dishonour, and shame.

Not in the passage..

That's all you are seemingly able to do. There are reading upgrades available online. But you will have to want to be honest in your reading.

Or I can just read the passage and interpret it. And not be like you and destroy the passage and its wording to make it fit my belief system.

The baptism of fire is what ensures that we are building with eternally tried materials. But continue to do as your wish. The warnings are obviously for others.

No. If you read the passage, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire are what God with his winnowing fan. He seperates the wheat Ithe righteous) front he chaff ( the lost) and he gathers the wheat and puts in in the barn (representative of heaven)

but the chaff he will burn with an unquntiable fire.. (representative of eternal hellfire)

your reading comprehension of this baptism of fire is just as bad as yoru reading of Romans 6 and crucify with christ, and 1 cor 3 and a future bema seat judgment.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I wasn't referring to you...I don't know what your theology is on needing faith in Christ to be saved.

You were including me too. Below clarifies. I said I assumed I was one of those. Because I had been one of those referenced in the post back and forth on “those people”. I did hurt. So I do care. But that doesn’t change how I read it. If you don’t agree that is fine. But I can’t read it the same as you to please you.

Though I would say that rendering warnings into something "hopeful" might be a way of thinking we know better than the Author of said warnings who inspired them for the purpose of WARNING. They are only hopeful if we take them to heart as warnings and avoid doing what they are warning against. Test the spirits sister!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It said he will still be rescued (saved) even as through fire. I explained that yesterday how a man escapes his burning house. But he loses everything he had.. Still he was saved out of the fire or through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved (wood, hay, stubble), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

And all the rest of that passage but it is too much to post…consider the magnitude of what you posted, the Hope in, the good news Gospel in “it said he will still be rescued (saved) even as through fire. I explained that yesterday how a man escapes his burning house. But he loses everything he had.. Still he was saved out of the fire or through fire.

What is dissolved? But have no fear. “We have a building not made with hands”

…death of that one who suffered loss of everything he had.. “loosing everything he had” …Paul by the same Spirit that was in Christ is an example.
Yet dissolved …”rescued” saved by whom?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does anyone know what Cult teaches that the Judgement seat of Christ that happens after the born again die, happened to Paul while he was on earth?
This is a very queer Theology....Ive never heard that one and ive heard most of them.

So, can anyone tell me where this bizarre theology of attributing to Paul while he was on earth, = what happened to Him after He met Jesus in Eternity............what cult teaches this?

What cult teaches this? Or what cultist commentary teaches such incredibly wrong theology?

Remember, no one in 2000 years wrote what he teaches.. He can’t provide even one.. They are his own words..

 

[Behold]

Remember, no one in 2000 years wrote what he teaches.. He can’t provide even one.. They are his own words..

I try to find this in his videos and Threads, and i can't find it.


=. A.God sent Jesus , who is God in the flesh to the Cross for 2 reasons.

1.) To eternally deal with sin. = 2 Corinthians 5:19

2.) To provide all believers with "The Gift of Salvation and "The Gift of Righteousness".....so that by these FREE Gifts, that God has given.... God Himself can now take us, accept us, and keep us.

I cant find God's Cross of Christ as the reason God takes us and keeps us, in any of His posts, Threads, or Videos.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Trying to think of what to tell you. That is how I read the passage and I am sharing with you how I read it. Not to put you down but I want you to be encouraged. You said “there is no baptism of fire”

That is what is confusing. And another thing that worries me

I said there was no baptism of fire in 1 cor 3. I never said there was no baptism of fire.

Christ said “I will baptize you with fire”. To prepare, to cleanse, to remove the “wood, hay, stubble”. That is a blessing.

Actually Christ did not say it, thats another issue, John the baptist said it. John the baptist told the crowd of believers and unbelievers that Jesus will Baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus will baptise everyone, We have to chose which one.

the Holy Spirit (the washing and renewal)

or fire. A fire that shall never be quenched, There is only one fire in scripture that fits this fire. And that is hellfire.

To be found in Him (tried) not having our own righteousness but the righteousness (tried and true and sure) that comes from God. But at the same time, many turn away. Consider when He told them you must eat my flesh and drink my blood. Many were offended and turned from Him.

The righteousness which comes from God is imputed righteousness. The same righteousness which was imputed to abraham way back in gen 15..

I think you misunderstood me by loss of all things. I’m not suggesting a show of outward appearances to try to be saved. I’m suggesting. “Oh God please search my heart! Let my heart be tried and the hay, stubble and wood be burned.” If Paul had not been baptized by the fire Christ baptizes with…then we would still be talking about the wood, hay, and stubble of Saul. We would be talking about a Pharisees fanatic persecuting Jesus Christ. Because that was the wood, hay, and stubble “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” “WHO are you?” “I am Jesus of Nazareth.”

Again, you’re not understanding the passage. Paul was never baptised wiht fire.. And his judgment of fire has not yet happened.

I thought of other verses last night in regards to tested and tried by fire, the baptism of Christ…for example you must lose house, father, mother, even your own life, or you can not be my disciple. Or he who saves his life will loose it, he who looses his life will find it. —but I didn’t post them because it would surely appear I was promoting…being good enough to earn deliverance. Often those passages are turned into a man who leaves his family to go minister saying God told him to forsake his family to minister. To me that IS NOT what those verses mean but instead the man is leaving and abandoning his family to chase his own image…not Christ. (Or that is my opinion which I’m only sharing with you to clarify) …as also pastors who crave the attention and status of leading a church but won’t be bothered with leading their family. That is a lot of opinion from me and maybe I’m wrong but still those passage from Christ still say there will be loss with persecutions but what is gained is a better; tried and true.

Unless your born again, Your not a true disciple.

One must be born again first.. Thats what we have been trying to share.. There were many disciples that followed Jesus/ In John 6. Jesus said many of them did not believe and one was the devil (judas) They were not born again, thats why they did nt do anythign for christ, and walked away in unbelief.

Still I love those verses I keep going on about. To me they are hopeful and not accusing. To me Paul still fits there to a tee… having suffered the loss of all things to win Christ. The same Spirit that was in Christ in Paul. Indeed tested and tried by fire and found: sure. That same Spirit Becoming the corner stone of the foundation laid in Christ.

You must interpret them the way they are written though. Otherwise they are meaningless.. I know. I used to be that way myself.. I had ot learn the hard way how meaningless my mistranslated verses were..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I try to find this in his videos and Threads, and i can't find it.


=. A.God sent Jesus , who is God in the flesh to the Cross for 2 reasons.

1.) To eternally deal with sin. = 2 Corinthians 5:19

2.) To provide all believers with "The Gift of Salvation and "The Gift of Righteousness".....so that by these FREE Gifts, that God has given.... God Himself can now take us, accept us, and keep us.

I cant find God's Cross of Christ as the reason God takes us and keeps us, in any of His posts, Threads, or Videos.

He denies what he calls “penal substituion”

 

[Behold]

He denies what he calls “penal substituion”

God doesn't.
Just ask the Cross of Christ where God bled and died for all our sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved (wood, hay, stubble), we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

And all the rest of that passage but it is too much to post…consider the magnitude of what you posted, the Hope in, the good news Gospel in “it said he will still be rescued (saved) even as through fire. I explained that yesterday how a man escapes his burning house. But he loses everything he had.. Still he was saved out of the fire or through fire.

What is dissolved? But have no fear. “We have a building not made with hands”

…death of that one who suffered loss of everything he had.. “loosing everything he had” …Paul by the same Spirit that was in Christ is an example.
Yet dissolved …”rescued” saved by whom?

Thats not what paul says in 1 cor 3.. it is a judgment

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thats not what paul says in 1 cor 3.. it is a judgment

You spoke of the one whose house is on fire. But come back with it doesn’t apply. Ok.

 

[Behold]

Amen. That is what Jesus and the apostles did, they preached Christ and the need to believe on Him to be saved. I can only surmise that some people must believe they know better than Jesus and the apostles.

That would be the Devil and his owned.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of Christ where “He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire” “he will burn up the chaff” …the message seems to be He has not baptized any with fire …yet. No Holy Spirit, and with fire. Only endless debates over sprinkled or submerged? And…a futuristic baptism of Christ that purges “with the Holy Spirit, and with fire” , that burns up the chaff…

No fire. No loss. What suffered loss? What fire? That is promoting works of the flesh. it is said Paul never was baptized by fire. where does it say Paul was saved by Fire? Then he walked in the chaff instead of the Life I now Live, I Live in Christ.

“Judgement begins at the House of God”? Which House you are; if His Spirit abides in you…and you in Him.

 

[Jim B]

Then examine this all inclusive love god real closely . For it seems to be doing just that .
Accepting all religoins and mindsets as valid and good and just spouting lets come together as one and
focus on good works . ITS KICKED out the only way to be saved , CHRIST JESUS . and that is bad news .
real bad news . many wont be liking what they hear on the DAY of THE LORD JESUS , that i sure can say .
But as for the lambs we gonna be singing praises to HIM . The savoir of our soul , our redeemer our savoir the CHRIST OF GOD .

That is not what Marks said. You are going off on your usual mindless tangent.

BTW, why is CHRIST JESUS bad news?