How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[VictoryinJesus]

“Salvation is for sinners”

“Salvation is for sinners” Makes me think of:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[marks]

I had always taken that to be talking about the flesh body as well. Is it possible it is also speaking of the soul-life? I don't know, maybe.

I also think it was the flesh life. The life is decaying as we start to live in christ who lives in us.. As he grows us or sanctifies us.

I also see this outer man that is decaying as the flesh (sarx), meaning our bodies (soma).

I see the inner man as being our new creation spirit. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. We are the spirit children of God.

I see the soul as being the same as "psuche", meaning our self-identity, our thoughts and feelings, the ongoing mental "chatter" in our minds.

I see me as being born in a flesh body, with a flesh brain, that contains "me". The flesh is corrupted by sin, which means it's damaged, and will only produce a mind that reflects that damage, the corrupt mind of the flesh.

I live and grow, and experience things, and make choices, and all the sinful things around me, and that I choose, all leave their imprint of more corruption. Sinful thoughts, feelings, actions, all leave their imprint in the brain, as well as all the evil done against me. These are the neural pathways, "reward circuit", the biology of our minds. Traumatic experiences in developing children, and even adults, can leave permanent damage to the brain, impacting it's functionality.

So my body, my brain, my mind, all are corrupted by sin, all are dead in transgression and sin, all is condemned by God.

And then I am regenerated.

Now there is a new part to "me", a living spirit, united to God's Holy Spirit. This new part, my spirit, does not live in my brain, like my soul does. It lives in the celestial realm with God.

My consciousness is in my soul, psuche. My psuche was determined before only by the corruption I labored under, and whatever I've been able to do working with that. But whatever I was arose from corruption.

Now my psuche has another influence, 2 actually, my new spirit, and the Holy Spirit. These work together as one.

Flesh and spirit war against each other for control of the soul, psuche, and subsequently control of the body, that is, our actions.

Being crucified with Christ is when "I", my self-identy, sense of self, and source of self, is cut away from the flesh/body, and is transfered into Christ. I am no longer the man of flesh in Adam, I am now the man of spirit in Christ. But my soul is still in the body, and "I" still see from the body's eyes, and walk with the body's feet, and so on.

I understand walking in the Spirit to refer to living entirely in that new man, that is, that the new man, the spirit child of God, the one who is united to the Holy Spirit, entirely overwhelms any flesh influence or consideration. This is when the soul/psuche becomes completely aligned with the Holy Spirit, and the flesh is competely controlled.

I think the common experience among the regenerate is that we are in the process of being trained by God to recognize and subdue when what is going on in our minds has it's source as the flesh, so we can stop that, and replace it with thoughts/feelings/choices that have their source in the spirit. I think this is what is meant in putting off the old man, and putting on the new man.

This process of training can be very extreme sometimes.

In my case, I've had a very corrupting life experience, and have had very enduring maldevelopment, and deeply ingrained bad habits of how to think, and how to feel, and how to choose. And these are the fleshy lusts that war against the soul.

And when I cannot get a handle on things, when my present ability to choose spirit over flesh fails me, God steps in with His chastening. I see His chastening as very difficult and often painful experiences that overpower the working of flesh against me, like a hammer that breaks a chain. Something so overwhelming that it causes me to reject what I was holding on to, and to accept His righteous way. Putting off, and putting on, with a heavy hand to get me there.

Spiritual maturing is the culmination of these things, as we learn to identify fleshy thoughts/feeling/choices, to deny them before they come to any fruition. In the denying of the fleshy stuff, this allows the spiritual to grow unhindered.

The more we think/feel/choose according the Holy Spirit, the more this reworks our soul/psuche into the spiritual pattern, away from the fleshy pattern. And this enhances are ability to think,feel/choose in the right way.

If we are walking according to the flesh, this is to live as one not regenerated.

If we are led of the Spirit, this is to be making our choices of what to think and feel and do according to what the Spirit whispers to us.

If we are walking in the Spirit, this is to be living according the Holy Spirit in us, without regard towards our flesh. Again, I only say these things to show how I understand this.

I think the common Christian experience is to find ourselves in each of these states from time to time. I think this will depend a lot on what we think is happening in us, and what our faith is.

My faith is that in Christ, I'm fully separated from my flesh, that's no longer me. I'm just using the body. My faith is that God fully empowers me apart from my body, which is to be my tool, not my source. My faith is that God WILL complete His work in my, which will result in transforming my body into one that will no longer war against me with it's own ungodly lusts.

I think that when we walk in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit's fruit, Love, joy, peace, et. al., is our life experience. Not that we grow into being more loving, rather, our choices are all choosing love. Our feelings are joyful, peaceful, even in the midst of suffering and pain. Paul and Silas singing in jail.

I think when we are led of the Spirit, we are building a better character with every godly thought/feeling/choice/action, as this writes different neural pathways into our brains. This leads to less resistance from our old man, as the mind is being renewed to the new man. As the soul is being rewritten according to the spirit.

This is where we grow to be more loving, our character improving.

And of course when we completely lapse in our faith and revert to "walking according to flesh", living as if unregenerate.

For me, the battle is in the mind. The sooner I recognize fleshy thoughts, the sooner I can recover control. But best of all is that I'm learning the faith that sets all that aside and allows me to walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

“Salvation is for sinners” Makes me think of:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Made me think He came to save the sinner not the righteous.

Mark 2
On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Made me think He came to save the sinner not the righteous.

Matt 9
But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

Mark 2
On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Agree. Same as those possessed by evil spirits, or having a blood issue for twelve years having spent all your living on physicians.

 

[Enoch111]

How can you say there it is nothing about “outward” man and “inward” man?

Yes there is nothing about "outward" man and "inward" man when it comes to the salvation (justification) of sinners. There is only "the natural man" (devoid of the Holy Spirit). And the natural man needs to be born again.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes there is nothing about "outward" man and "inward" man when it comes to the salvation (justification) of sinners. There is only "the natural man" (devoid of the Holy Spirit). And the natural man needs to be born again.

Don’t fully disagree. I’m just not understanding how you say (paraphrasing): no way! No how! There is nothing about an outer and inner man.

Consider the seed that has to go in the ground and die. Is there a husk? Does the husk become the grain?

 

[Enoch111]

I’m just not understanding how you say (paraphrasing): no way! No how! There is nothing about an outer and inner man.

To answer your question, there is no "inner man" until and unless the dead spirit of the natural man is "quickened" or made alive by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And then the contrast is NOT between the "outer man" and the "inner man". The contrast is between "the flesh" (the sin nature) and "the spirit" (the inner man). But until a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ there is only "the natural man". Can you see the distinctions?

So to apply "inner man" and "outer man" to those who are not even saved is sheer nonsense. And there is far too much spiritual nonsense being posted on CB. Of course that allows for free speech, but it also means that when we see nonsense we should call it out.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To answer your question, there is no "inner man" until and unless the dead spirit of the natural man is "quickened" or made alive by the indwelling Holy Spirit. And then the contrast is NOT between the "outer man" and the "inner man". The contrast is between "the flesh" (the sin nature) and "the spirit" (the inner man). But until a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ there is only "the natural man". Can you see the distinctions?

So to apply "inner man" and "outer man" to those who are not even saved is sheer nonsense. And there is far too much spiritual nonsense being posted on CB. Of course that allows for free speech, but it also means that when we see nonsense we should call it out.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God has made it evident to them.

To me that says they have the truth within them but they suppress it.
No?

 

[Enoch111]

To me that says they have the truth within them but they suppress it. No?

No. What that means is that the reality of the existence and power of God is evident to all mankind in nature. The whole unbelieving world acknowledges that there is a Supreme Being. Atheism is totally artificial and is a pretension of a few Western idiots. But knowing of the existence of God is not the same as having faith in Him alone, and worshiping Him alone. So the whole pagan world descended into the worship of creatures and the host of heaven rather than the Creator.

 

[Episkopos]

Happy to discuss these things, brother. I might need tweeking on some of this, but just going by those scriptures that I brought....if that is not correct then how are we to understand them? I believe there must be a reason why even though our old man has been crucified, we still need to undergo chastisements and sufferings.

One has to understand how the bible is written and not put too much weight on one verse above another to suit a certain doctrine...Notice this verse.

2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead ...

All dead? This verse taken out of context could suggest we are all dead (crucified) because Jesus died for all. Or, it could mean that Jesus had to go through death because we are all found there...spiritually dead. In death He came to find us. In His resurrection...He came to revive us to eternal life. But ALL????

Paul is giving us a spiritual formula that is an overview of the situation...not meant to be applied to the individual...

I see people doing the same thing with Romans 6. Paul is looking back and making general statements and formulas to understand as a whole. Not meant as an individual testimony.

Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


This is a basic formula Paul is laying out...he that is dead is free from sin...in Him is no sin...etc. Does this describe the individual? Of course not. It is formulaic...how things work.

"Our old man" is written as a collective here...like the Jews and the Gentiles forming One New Man. Notice the plural. No individual is involved here...it is a grouping... an overview of what God is accomplishing on a macro scale.

If we are to take this as individuals we could say that we are each crucified away from what we once were. We are no longer Gentiles or Jews or slaves or free. Our old identity has been changed. And that is an instant happening when we are born again. What it DOESN'T mean is that each of us is automatically crucified dead to sin because we are now believers.

When Paul says "I am crucified" that is HIS personal testimony....again not meant to be claimed as having happened to all. We each have to go to the cross so that we too can say with Paul...I too have been crucified with Christ.

Why the confusion? Religion muddies the water because it wants to put people in a place they are not.

What is the purpose of carrying a cross?

We bear responsibility for our own actions. We bear our OWN cross which is the outer man of sin...like an albatross around our necks. Until we have it cut away and made free.
Jesus came to set the captives free.

Where are we going when we carry our cross? We are to follow Christ. We follow Him to Golgotha. When we reach Him...we can be crucified with Him and set free to enter INTO Him. This is on an individual basis. This is meant to be our individual testimony AFTER we have gone through it.

We are evidently walking through a crucifixion of some kind while here on earth, and that is part of what it means to follow Jesus......following Him to where He is...."you know the way to where I am." That way is the same way He walked, the way of the cross.....a crucifixion.

Yes. We bear our own cross and suffer for our own sins UNTIL...we are crucified with Him and bear HIS reproach. In Him we suffer for Him...not ourselves. Those who persecute Christ so often are themselves "believers" who refuse to carry their own cross..or else they esteem others as being less or equal to themselves...having never been separated from their own ego-centric life.

He is the potter, we are the clay and we are His workmanship.....there is evidently still work of some kind going on in us, and I believe those scriptures help us to understand what and why. It is self-evident that our flesh has not been crucified, since we're still alive and walking around, and there is still the need to beat it to make it our slave. Remember Jesus saying to fear the one who can destroy body and soul in hell?.....what I believe to have received there is that body and soul are kind of fused together as one. We are to be perfecting holiness in flesh and spirit and be blameless in spirit, soul and body. And remember that the sword of the spirit is a double edged sword, dividing between soul and spirit....there must be a reason why it needs to do that.

We see the soul elevating itself to the level of the spirit. That is until....the soul is divided through the circumcision of the heart. THEN, there is an understanding that the inner man is very weak, naked, blind, and wretched...and depends SO MUCH on the outer man for help in this world.

The worst thing we can do is read the bible irresponsibly and claim various things for ourselves in an uncrucified state. Hypocrisy is inevitable in that case.

Rev 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (Gk - psuche/psyche) unto the death. (see, same Greek word for soul here once again, but please check it out - and I believe that is why the scripture says "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints", because it is alluding to the 'death' of the soul-life for His sake.)

Yes again. The life of Christ and the individual testimony of a life lived in the higher walk. Those who have done this have sacrificed themselves on the altar of a full surrender to God and have been taken up...crucified to the death part of us...into life...to walk in the light as He is in the light.

I still can't get a handle on what Epi is saying about outer man....it confuses me in relation to old/new man.

Think the difference between a corporate formula...and an individual experience. Old Man...corporate....outer man individual.

Think on this...In Him is no sin. Do I sin? If so I might be CORPORATELY in Christ...but not yet as an individual. Or....I might be at a wedding as a guest...but NOT as the bride. (Always a bridesmaid and never the bride ) That is until a personal betrothal and a personal intimacy with the Bridegroom.

The bible doesn't talk about an outer man, though it talks about an inner man, as well as old and new man.

Paul says "outward" man. But Jesus speaks of the inside and outside of the cup in regards the person...when speaking to the Pharisees. The outer man only becomes an issue when we continue to put confidence in our own understanding.

I'm just trying to stay with bible terminology that I know otherwise I get confused. Maybe it's just my poor brain, or maybe it's because I only speak "bible-ese". I think Episkopos has some things right, but some things are very wrong.

How would you know that unless you had a deeper understanding than everyone? What you see me saying as wrong is you not yet understanding the race of faith.

Throwing out the foundation has led to some wrong conclusions.

The foundation is Christ...not Christ in you. That is where all your wrong conclusions come from. You are making this personal whereas you should be looking at what the calling is first. You see building materials and start building. But you don't know what the finished product is supposed to look like. So you are building on the wrong level.

In New York state there is a fort called Ticonderoga. In the excavations they found many red tiles and assumed these were for the roof. They built the fort again using the same materials...only to find a very early drawing of the fort that showed that the tiles were the pavement for the road leading to it.

Completely unnecessary to throw out the foundation in any case....because it's a matter that we need to "work out" what Jesus has already accomplished. Eg, we know the devil was completely and soundly defeated at the cross......but yet we still see him prowling around causing havoc. Also, God told the Israelites that He had given the Canaanites into their hands, as in past tense, yet they still needed to go fight the battles to bring it to pass.

You are building on the human level what can only be built in the upper level of Zion. With each level comes its own requirements.

The lower level is built with humility, fear of God, a broken spirit, brotherly love, mercy and forgiveness...etc. (not beliefs, opinions, and outrageous claims.)

The upper level is built by the faith OF Christ, suffering for HIS sake, growing in eternal love...growing in His holiness...warring in the Spirit...being a light to the world.

 

[Episkopos]

The captain of our salvation was made perfect by suffering. Instant death is not suffering. Jesus began His suffering in Gethsemane when He was counting the cost, and then was tried, and following that was mocked and beaten, and horribly scourged to within an inch of his life, and then had to carry His cross in that condition, until the suffering of being nailed to it, after which He continued in agony dying for three hours after being nailed to it and lifted up on it. And only then did He finally give up the ghost. How do you understand the "little by little" of that passage in Exodus 23?

We suffer on each level. Suffering on a human level brings wisdom (hochmah)...whereby we can cease from sins or presumptions and thinking we are invincible. With time we learn to be weaned from the fleeting pleasures of this world...and develop a steadier character. But always we run the risk of becoming, cynical, unbelieving, and blase.

To suffer on the level of Christ brings an eternal wisdom (toushiyah) based on His strength covering our weakness. At that level we cease from all sin.

And how many times have we had to count the cost to stick to the narrow way like Jesus in Gethsemane when an "easy way" was offered to us? There is an ongoing aspect to these things, not just a one time event.

That's the way of righteousness.

I don't know how to understand your experiences with the Lord. I don't consider "experiences", though precious, to be permanent in this life, but foretastes of the powers of the world to come, which the bible does speak of.

FROM the higher walk comes higher experiences. But the walk is constant. I can't tell you of the higher experiences...because of the lack of faith here. But the keeping power of God is like a powerful magnet that keeps us in His presence.

You said you are not currently walking in the Spirit....are you distinguishing walking in the spirit from heavenly experiences and visions?

No to walking in the Spirit. And yes I fully know the difference between the higher walk and having periodic visions, and experiences. I can still have periodic experiences in the lower walk. And I can still hear from the Lord...following Him. What I am not currently doing is walking above sin...in the heavenly walk. I am learning righteousness...since I blew it last time by assuming things...arrogantly...that I thought ...over a long period of time...that I could never lose. God is NOT a respecter of persons. Gravity does not respect persons. The law is the law and grace is grace.

and also, does it mean you were crucified but are currently un-crucified, since you are not currently in the spirit, according to how you are understanding it?

A living sacrifice can crawl off the altar. Being crucified with Christ is a CORPORATE done deal...but not an individual one. We go in and out of the Spirit...on and off the cross. We can take our life back or give it again. But each time it is God who decides to translate us or not.

But for the promise of God I would have despaired at being finally rejected by Him. And I wonder if my times of walking in Zion are complete??? But I press on to the goal of my calling...nothing holding me back...just faith. So I am walking as faithfully as I can in my present "away from" walk. I can still follow Christ...but now from a certain distance.

Getting tired so will have to leave it there for now.

We were out of power for 25 hours due to the ice storm. Things got rather chilly! ;)

 

[Lizbeth]

Here, by a bolder figure, they are viewed as an old self that had died and a new one that had come to life in its place (cf. 2Co_5:17, Εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ καινὴ κτίσις τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν). The idea of a new man being born into a new life in baptism was already familiar to the Jews in their baptism of proselytes (see Lightfoot, on Joh_3:1-36.); and our Lord, discoursing to Nicodemus of the new birth, supposes him to understand the figure; but he teaches him that the change thus expressed should be no mere change of profession and habits of life, but a radical inward change, which could only be wrought by the regenerating Spirit. Such a change St. Paul teaches to be signified by Christian baptism; not only deliverance from condemnation through participation in the benefits of the death of Christ, but also the birth or creation of a new self corresponding to his risen body, which will not be, like the old self, under the thraldom of sin. "The body of sin" may be taken as meaning much the same as "our old man;" sin being conceived as embodied in our former selves, and so possessing them and keeping them in bondage.

It certainly does not mean simply our bodies as distinct from our souls, so as to imply the idea that the former must be macerated that the latter may live.

The asceticism inculcated elsewhere in the New Testament is in no contradiction to the ideal of mens sana in corpore sano. Our former sin-possessed and sin-dominated personality being now crucified with Christ, dead, and done away with, we are no longer, in our new personality, in slavery to sin, and are both bound and able to renounce it; "for he that hath died is freed [δεδικαίωταιa,, literally, ’is justified’] from sin."

Guess what @Lizbeth this is from Pulpit commentary--excellent, if you know a little about Greek and Hebrew and the morphology.

2) "That our old man is crucified with him," (hoti ho palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe) "That the old (man) or person of us was crucified with him," and now is to exist as dead (barren, unfruitful, unproductive). We are to feed, exercise, cultivate the old desires and passions no more, but to keep them subdued, bridled, under subjection, 1Co_9:26-27; Rom_12:1-2; Col_1:1-3.

3) "That the body of sin might be destroyed," (hina katargethe to soma tes hamartias) "in order that the body of sin might be destroyed," brought to great loss or ruin, be bridled, kept under control by the Holy Spirit, by the new life of Christ in us, as Paul yearned to do, 1Co_9:26-27; Gal_5:25.

CARTHAGE DESTRUCTION

It is reported of Cato that he never spake in the senate upon public business, but he ended his speech by inculcating the necessity of destroying Carthage; his well-known maxim was: "Delenda est Carthage." The believers' motto is, "The old man must be crucified."
--J. Lee

4) "That henceforth we should not serve sin," (tou meketi douleuein hemas te hamartia) "To the end that we should no longer serve the body of sin," the cravings of the old flesh-body and its desires, no longer be in bondage or slavery to the desires of the carnal nature, Eph_4:22-24; Col_3:5-9.

I believe that's why there is so much confusion on a thread like this--using wordly terminologies foreighn to Scriptures

No, we are not to flagellate ourselves like some in the Catholic church do....but it is the Lord who is leading us and He brings/allows the chastisements that are working together for our good. My question, in light of those scriptures about losing our soul-life for His sake, would be, does that "body of sin" to be destroyed include the soul-life, or maybe we could say our old man's soul-life?

1Pe 1:6-9

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (here is that Greek work "psuche" again... could we say we are losing our soul-life in order to gain the soul-life of Christ? And this is why Paul said it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in him?)

Sufferings, such as those mentioned in the above scripture must be helping us to lose our soul-life then, in order to save our soul...?

I've heard people mention "soul-ishness" as opposed to the spirit, ie, implying that soulishness is of the flesh. Eg, soulish prayers would be prayers that people pray out of emotions or greed and sefishness, etc. And for reasons like this the bible says the sword of the spirit divides between soul and spirit....?

Interesting, I just remembered now, that the old testament talks about afflicting one's soul in reference to fasting....so it appears that fasting doesn't just afflict the physical body alone, but because of body/soul being one, it afflicts the soul...?

Anyway, these are hard questions, I'm going to meditate on those scriptures some more.

 

[Lizbeth]

I also see this outer man that is decaying as the flesh (sarx), meaning our bodies (soma).

I see the inner man as being our new creation spirit. That which is born of Spirit is spirit. We are the spirit children of God.

I see the soul as being the same as "psuche", meaning our self-identity, our thoughts and feelings, the ongoing mental "chatter" in our minds.

I see me as being born in a flesh body, with a flesh brain, that contains "me". The flesh is corrupted by sin, which means it's damaged, and will only produce a mind that reflects that damage, the corrupt mind of the flesh.

I live and grow, and experience things, and make choices, and all the sinful things around me, and that I choose, all leave their imprint of more corruption. Sinful thoughts, feelings, actions, all leave their imprint in the brain, as well as all the evil done against me. These are the neural pathways, "reward circuit", the biology of our minds. Traumatic experiences in developing children, and even adults, can leave permanent damage to the brain, impacting it's functionality.

So my body, my brain, my mind, all are corrupted by sin, all are dead in transgression and sin, all is condemned by God.

And then I am regenerated.

Now there is a new part to "me", a living spirit, united to God's Holy Spirit. This new part, my spirit, does not live in my brain, like my soul does. It lives in the celestial realm with God.

My consciousness is in my soul, psuche. My psuche was determined before only by the corruption I labored under, and whatever I've been able to do working with that. But whatever I was arose from corruption.

Now my psuche has another influence, 2 actually, my new spirit, and the Holy Spirit. These work together as one.

Flesh and spirit war against each other for control of the soul, psuche, and subsequently control of the body, that is, our actions.

Being crucified with Christ is when "I", my self-identy, sense of self, and source of self, is cut away from the flesh/body, and is transfered into Christ. I am no longer the man of flesh in Adam, I am now the man of spirit in Christ. But my soul is still in the body, and "I" still see from the body's eyes, and walk with the body's feet, and so on.

I understand walking in the Spirit to refer to living entirely in that new man, that is, that the new man, the spirit child of God, the one who is united to the Holy Spirit, entirely overwhelms any flesh influence or consideration. This is when the soul/psuche becomes completely aligned with the Holy Spirit, and the flesh is competely controlled.

I think the common experience among the regenerate is that we are in the process of being trained by God to recognize and subdue when what is going on in our minds has it's source as the flesh, so we can stop that, and replace it with thoughts/feelings/choices that have their source in the spirit. I think this is what is meant in putting off the old man, and putting on the new man.

This process of training can be very extreme sometimes.

In my case, I've had a very corrupting life experience, and have had very enduring maldevelopment, and deeply ingrained bad habits of how to think, and how to feel, and how to choose. And these are the fleshy lusts that war against the soul.

And when I cannot get a handle on things, when my present ability to choose spirit over flesh fails me, God steps in with His chastening. I see His chastening as very difficult and often painful experiences that overpower the working of flesh against me, like a hammer that breaks a chain. Something so overwhelming that it causes me to reject what I was holding on to, and to accept His righteous way. Putting off, and putting on, with a heavy hand to get me there.

Spiritual maturing is the culmination of these things, as we learn to identify fleshy thoughts/feeling/choices, to deny them before they come to any fruition. In the denying of the fleshy stuff, this allows the spiritual to grow unhindered.

The more we think/feel/choose according the Holy Spirit, the more this reworks our soul/psuche into the spiritual pattern, away from the fleshy pattern. And this enhances are ability to think,feel/choose in the right way.

If we are walking according to the flesh, this is to live as one not regenerated.

If we are led of the Spirit, this is to be making our choices of what to think and feel and do according to what the Spirit whispers to us.

If we are walking in the Spirit, this is to be living according the Holy Spirit in us, without regard towards our flesh. Again, I only say these things to show how I understand this.

I think the common Christian experience is to find ourselves in each of these states from time to time. I think this will depend a lot on what we think is happening in us, and what our faith is.

My faith is that in Christ, I'm fully separated from my flesh, that's no longer me. I'm just using the body. My faith is that God fully empowers me apart from my body, which is to be my tool, not my source. My faith is that God WILL complete His work in my, which will result in transforming my body into one that will no longer war against me with it's own ungodly lusts.

I think that when we walk in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit's fruit, Love, joy, peace, et. al., is our life experience. Not that we grow into being more loving, rather, our choices are all choosing love. Our feelings are joyful, peaceful, even in the midst of suffering and pain. Paul and Silas singing in jail.

I think when we are led of the Spirit, we are building a better character with every godly thought/feeling/choice/action, as this writes different neural pathways into our brains. This leads to less resistance from our old man, as the mind is being renewed to the new man. As the soul is being rewritten according to the spirit.

This is where we grow to be more loving, our character improving.

And of course when we completely lapse in our faith and revert to "walking according to flesh", living as if unregenerate.

For me, the battle is in the mind. The sooner I recognize fleshy thoughts, the sooner I can recover control. But best of all is that I'm learning the faith that sets all that aside and allows me to walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

Amen, the battle being in the mind....as being kind of the seat of the soul....mind, will and emotions. Soul being the self that we must deny as part of taking up our cross...? And that God in His wisdom to help us often denies us the satisfying of in this life.

Lord bless you for all you have endured brother. This life can be so unspeakably cruel....but God IS turning it all around for our good. I even recognize that whatever suffering and lack was in my childhood helped to prepare my heart to receive Jesus later! The Lord foreknew we would be His even before we came to be His....and it will all be much more than worth it in the end.

 

[amigo de christo]

Look at the result of all these "seeker-friendly" churches. They have let in untold numbers of ego-seekers come in to the point that they must be catered to to keep up the numbers. So these continue to whine and rant at how crucified they are...because they have learned to practice naming and claiming all the good sounding verses in the bible. Any verse that actually describes their true condition is seen as being for someone else....certainly not for them. How convenient! Quoting these verses to them is taken as a personal attack. Meanwhile those warnings are given in LOVE from the Lord to rescue people from judgment. The part of a person that gets offended is the shallow outer man..who rejoices quickly until the truth is declared.

Is there any hope for these spoiled ones? Can they be reverse engineered to become humble...self-effacing, kind, meek, courteous, wise, God-fearing and knowledgeable?

My advice to all is FLEE those seeker friendly mad houses . They have omitted the true gospel of Christ
and have pandered unto men and the flesh .
As for you epi , you are in dire and deadly danger yourself . Omitting the dire necessity to believe on Christ
is totally a death sentence . Leave me to rebuke the false seeker sensitive . The log must be pulled
from your eye before you can even begin to correct that mad house . TIME TO PREACH CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED

 

[amigo de christo]

Made me think He came to save the sinner not the righteous.

Mark 2
On hearing this, Jesus told them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Have you ever noticed how they would say , He eats with publicans and sinners
yet they themselves were far greater sinners . There is none that is righteous .
THEY ALL SHOULD HAVE BEEN doing as those repentant sinners were doing , RUNNING TO CHRIST JESUS .
The publicans , harlots and etc will enter the KINGDOM before YOU
for they REPENTED at the preaching of JOHN . JOHN pointed TO CHRIST
and yet they would not come to CHRIST that they could be saved .
But the harlots , publicans , etc repented at the preaching of John and waited for HE whom JOHN DID POINT TOO .

 

[amigo de christo]

I tell us all that those whose faith was truly in CHRIST shall have a wonderful home that awaits them at the end of our faith .
But unto the all inclusive social gospel , i say only this , REPENT YE of the lie of making the way broad to GOD .
All your works will not save you for its faith is not in CHRIST alone .
And many will say unto me , but LORD didnt we do many good works
and we held our rainbows high and we were kind to all and accepting of all and did many good works
and fought for social justice . We told the world that you were love and that all religoins
knew you in their own way .
But they never knew the path to GOD was not the BROAD path they had made , that in truth
IT WAS THE BROAD ROAD OF DESTRUCTION and DELUSION that led only to perdition .
THERE IS but one way unto GOD , one name to attain salvation , justification , righteousness
redemption . JESUS CHRIST .
OMIT THAT and no matter how many good works you preach you just omitted the ONLY LIFE LINE TO GOD HIMSELF
and thus have not applied the BLOOD of the lamb upon the door posts of your heart and WILL see only WRATH .
The jews were told that the wrath of GOD was coming and to apply the blood of a lamb upon their door posts
And they obeyed and were kept safe from the wrath of GOD .
And yet a far greater LAMB did come and the all inclusive say , NO NEED to OBEY THAT ONE , NO NEED
to DO the WORK of GOD and BELIEVE on that one .
And thus shall wail on the day of the LORD .

 

[Episkopos]

@Lizbeth asked... "You said you are not currently walking in the Spirit....are you distinguishing walking in the spirit from heavenly experiences and visions? "

I thought, for the sake of clarity...that I should answer this and risk the mockers here reacting...for the sake of describing the importance of the higher walk and in understanding what is the calling in Christ. I rarely speak of the higher experiences as these are hard to describe.

If you don't like what I say here...please refrain from attacking...keep your doubts to yourself. I don't want to be responsible for any brothers being judged harder for it. To all the others....

At the higher level of walk comes greater experiences, visions, dreams...etc.

During the second revival we experienced...with LOTS of visitors coming from all over the world...a young brother who was staying with us who had done something wrong (before God) with guests who were visiting us from Alaska. The story is so specific I can't even recall what he did wrong...but I know he was cowardly regarding what he should have been standing up for towards the guests.

So the brother comes into our bedroom at around 2 am...and wakes us up...saying he has something to confess...and it can't wait. We were living in community at the time.

My wife and I went downstairs to hear him out. As I sat down I felt this enormous weight come on to me...like I was under a great depth of water so that I couldn't breathe. I was very afraid...and then words came out of my mouth that were not my own. A huge deep voice that sounded like it was under water but booming. Not my voice at all. During this time I was so crushed by the weight I couldn't breathe at all...but I was still alive. The brother was on his face...and was yet questioning the Voice of Authority that was on me. I couldn't believe it. It's like I was only an observer in the proceedings.

My wife was sitting on the floor next to me and she touched my leg...to feel electricity run up and down and through all her limbs. When she took away her hand, the electricity would slowly drift away. Then she would do it again and the same thing happened.

I relate this to you to show how the Holy Spirit speaks to the situation...when there is someone who is walking in the higher walk who is available to God. So when I read Acts 13 about the time when the Spirit says..Separate for Me Paul and Barnabas... I understand how that happened.

As afraid as I was when I was being crushed under the weight of the Spirit...when it lifted off me.... I felt a desire for His presence to return with that authority. We all did...as fearsome as that encounter was.

To this day I believe we need that kind of presence and authority that constitutes HIS church.

So we have been spoiled for any other manifestation than the church that God is building.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God has made it evident to them.

To me that says they have the truth within them but they suppress it.
No?

They also have the conviction of the Holy Spirit.. No one will have an excuse

 

[ChristisGod]

@Lizbeth asked... "You said you are not currently walking in the Spirit....are you distinguishing walking in the spirit from heavenly experiences and visions? "

I thought, for the sake of clarity...that I should answer this and risk the mockers here reacting...for the sake of describing the importance of the higher walk and in understanding what is the calling in Christ. I rarely speak of the higher experiences as these are hard to describe.

If you don't like what I say here...please refrain from attacking...keep your doubts to yourself. I don't want to be responsible for any brothers being judged harder for it. To all the others....

At the higher level of walk comes greater experiences, visions, dreams...etc.

During the second revival we experienced...with LOTS of visitors coming from all over the world...a young brother who was staying with us who had done something wrong (before God) with guests who were visiting us from Alaska. The story is so specific I can't even recall what he did wrong...but I know he was cowardly regarding what he should have been standing up for towards the guests.

So the brother comes into our bedroom at around 2 am...and wakes us up...saying he has something to confess...and it can't wait. We were living in community at the time.

My wife and I went downstairs to hear him out. As I sat down I felt this enormous weight come on to me...like I was under a great depth of water so that I couldn't breathe. I was very afraid...and then words came out of my mouth that were not my own. A huge deep voice that sounded like it was under water but booming. Not my voice at all. During this time I was so crushed by the weight I couldn't breathe at all...but I was still alive. The brother was on his face...and was yet questioning the Voice of Authority that was on me. I couldn't believe it. It's like I was only an observer in the proceedings.

My wife was sitting on the floor next to me and she touched my leg...to feel electricity run up and down and through all her limbs. When she took away her hand, the electricity would slowly drift away. Then she would do it again and the same thing happened.

I relate this to you to show how the Holy Spirit speaks to the situation...when there is someone who is walking in the higher walk who is available to God. So when I read Acts 13 about the time when the Spirit says..Separate for Me Paul and Barnabas... I understand how that happened.

As afraid as I was when I was being crushed under the weight of the Spirit...when it lifted off me.... I felt a desire for His presence to return with that authority. We all did...as fearsome as that encounter was.

To this day I believe we need that kind of presence and authority that constitutes HIS church.

So we have been spoiled for any other manifestation than the church that God is building.

Sounds like possession but not the voice of the Holy Spirit but of another spirit . There is not one instance in all scripture describing anything like the above coming from God but numerous times coming from demons. God always speaks through the persons normal voice the enemy does what you described.

hope this helps !!!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No. What that means is that the reality of the existence and power of God is evident to all mankind in nature. The whole unbelieving world acknowledges that there is a Supreme Being. Atheism is totally artificial and is a pretension of a few Western idiots. But knowing of the existence of God is not the same as having faith in Him alone, and worshiping Him alone. So the whole pagan world descended into the worship of creatures and the host of heaven rather than the Creator.

Do you mean seeing the power of the literal rising of the sun, or the whisper of a sun set? Or the power of the ocean pushing its waves ashore? This is what clearly has revealed God unto them? Externally? How when it is spiritually discerned? How when even if one is raised from the dead; they still won’t believe it? But a straggly dandelion busting through a crack in concrete…they are without excuse for God has shown in them the truth, having revealed it to them. That would be like giving a book to a child who doesn’t even know his or her ABC’s, and demanding “READ IT!!”