Bless you sister, thought I "heard" a little cry for help there. It might be helpful to talk this over with an impartial third party present and that way things maybe can be communicated with less resentment and anger. Just getting things off one's chest can be helplful in itself to clear the air and be heard. In the end it is quite simple, to just follow what scripture says concerning marriage, even though it is not necessarily easy, so we need to seek God's help. Sometimes marriage is a cross we bear for the Lord, at times at least.
How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?
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ChristisGod
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Salvation is for sinners. So what kind of nonsense is this about inner man and outer man? The flesh is to be reckoned as "dead" (inoperative) after salvation. But you continue to show your ignorance of the true Gospel. The Bible says that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Epi with his "inner and outer man"--what about the sarx?
Crucified with Christ - This describes a our spiritual death with Christ some 2000 years ago, a very real supernatural, albeit somewhat "mystical" event that occurred in the past in the eyes of God. The "I" that begins this verse is the old self (= the old man), the evil "I" who was crucified and therefore no longer has a valid claim on our life, for we are no longer in Adam but in Christ. This is now our position before God and it should be reflected in our daily practice.
When we became a believer by grace through faith there was a decisive death to the old (unbelieving, rebellious) self. Now in newness of life we are to work out our salvation (Php 2:12, 13-see notes 2:12; 13) moment by moment by faith in Christ Who loved us and gave Himself for us.
Wil Pounds writes that Galatians 2:20 reads literally "With Christ I have been co-crucified." When I believed on Christ I was so united with Christ, so linked with Him, that I am now so much a part of Him that His crucifixion positionally becomes my crucifixion. A part of me died at the cross. My old carnal nature was slain at the cross. Yet, I don't live in that death. The life I now live, I live in resurrection power. Christ's resurrection has become my resurrection. The life I now live, I live in faith in the Son of God who gave Himself for me.
As alluded to above, the preposition sun (see discussion) speaks of a believer's union or identification with Christ (see "Union With Christ").
The use of the perfect tense is very instructive, signifying that the believer has been crucified with Christ at a specific point in time in the past and that the effects of this this crucifixion persist or continue into the present. Stated another way, the perfect tense speaks of a past completed action having present finished results.
Was not the old nature, corrupt, crucified?
(Romans 6:6) knowing this, that our old self (old man) was crucified with (aorist tense = past completed action) Him, that our body of Sin might be done away with (aorist tense = past completed action), that we should no longer be slaves (present tense = continually) to sin; (see note Romans 6:6)
Comment: Note how God deals with the old self - He does not change it or transform it. What He did was crucify him with Christ. God condemned the old self and poured out His wrath on our Sinless Substitute, Who in turn poured out His blood and gave up His life on our behalf on the Cross. Note the that "was crucified" means "It was done! It was finished!"
We do not need to crucify the old self!
As Dr Walvoord discusses below, crucifixion is not something that we do, but is something that Christ has accomplished for us! "Crucified" is not a command to obey but a fact to be believed! The old self has been decisively dealt with on the Cross! Those who try to conquer the old self in their own strength will only experience futility and will never win the battle! Christ has won the battle for us. Our role now is to yield our will to His Spirit and moment by moment walk out in faith from the victory Christ has already achieved for us at Calvary.
A life filled with resurrection power comes only out of death. In view of the principle that resurrection can only come after death, as believers we must continually reckon ourselves as dead to sin (Ro 6:11-note) with Christ in order to experience His victorious life and His resurrection power, walking by faith and not by sight. Resurrection comes only out of death.)
Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and YOU SHALL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy, and My load is light." (Mt 11:28-30)
S Lewis Johnson explains the "I" here writing that "in this case the person in view is the person as dominated by the evil principle of sin, or the flesh -- .
This last sense is the meaning here, in the clause, "and it is no longer I who live." This is the "I" as under the domination of the sin principle. The apostle hastens to add, "but Christ lives in me"… It is in the same person, who formerly was dominated by the sin principle, that Christ lives by the Spirit, but the person has undergone a radical change of direction and domination (cf. 2Cor. 5:17), with new motivation and new desires now implanted by the Spirit through regeneration. The whole tenor of the life has been transformed. The present tense in the verb "lives" stresses that He will never leave us. (Read his full message on Galatians 2:15-21) (Bolding added)
Are you making a distinction, like Epi, re who and what was was co-crucified with Christ?
I'll leave you with this, to use scriptural terminologies--
προφηλώσας αὐτὸ τῷ σταυρῷ). The term "old man" (παλαὶος ἄνθρωπος) occurs also Eph_4:22; Col_3:9. It denotes man’s unregenerate self, when under sin and condemnation; the καινός or νεος ἄνθρωπος being his regenerate self. It is, of course, a different conception from that of ὁ ἐξω and ὁ ἔσωθεν ἄνθωππος of 2Co_4:16. In Ephesians and Colossians the old man is said to be put away, or put off, and the new one put on, as though they were two clothings, or investments, of his personality, determining its character.
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Here, by a bolder figure, they are viewed as an old self that had died and a new one that had come to life in its place (cf. 2Co_5:17, Εἴ τις ἐν Χριστῷ καινὴ κτίσις τὰ ἀρχαῖα παρῆλθεν). The idea of a new man being born into a new life in baptism was already familiar to the Jews in their baptism of proselytes (see Lightfoot, on Joh_3:1-36.); and our Lord, discoursing to Nicodemus of the new birth, supposes him to understand the figure; but he teaches him that the change thus expressed should be no mere change of profession and habits of life, but a radical inward change, which could only be wrought by the regenerating Spirit. Such a change St. Paul teaches to be signified by Christian baptism; not only deliverance from condemnation through participation in the benefits of the death of Christ, but also the birth or creation of a new self corresponding to his risen body, which will not be, like the old self, under the thraldom of sin. "The body of sin" may be taken as meaning much the same as "our old man;" sin being conceived as embodied in our former selves, and so possessing them and keeping them in bondage.
It certainly does not mean simply our bodies as distinct from our souls, so as to imply the idea that the former must be macerated that the latter may live.
The asceticism inculcated elsewhere in the New Testament is in no contradiction to the ideal of mens sana in corpore sano. Our former sin-possessed and sin-dominated personality being now crucified with Christ, dead, and done away with, we are no longer, in our new personality, in slavery to sin, and are both bound and able to renounce it; "for he that hath died is freed [δεδικαίωταιa,, literally, ’is justified’] from sin."
Guess what @Lizbeth this is from Pulpit commentary--excellent, if you know a little about Greek and Hebrew and the morphology.
2) "That our old man is crucified with him," (hoti ho palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe) "That the old (man) or person of us was crucified with him," and now is to exist as dead (barren, unfruitful, unproductive). We are to feed, exercise, cultivate the old desires and passions no more, but to keep them subdued, bridled, under subjection, 1Co_9:26-27; Rom_12:1-2; Col_1:1-3.
3) "That the body of sin might be destroyed," (hina katargethe to soma tes hamartias) "in order that the body of sin might be destroyed," brought to great loss or ruin, be bridled, kept under control by the Holy Spirit, by the new life of Christ in us, as Paul yearned to do, 1Co_9:26-27; Gal_5:25.
CARTHAGE DESTRUCTION
It is reported of Cato that he never spake in the senate upon public business, but he ended his speech by inculcating the necessity of destroying Carthage; his well-known maxim was: "Delenda est Carthage." The believers' motto is, "The old man must be crucified."
--J. Lee
4) "That henceforth we should not serve sin," (tou meketi douleuein hemas te hamartia) "To the end that we should no longer serve the body of sin," the cravings of the old flesh-body and its desires, no longer be in bondage or slavery to the desires of the carnal nature, Eph_4:22-24; Col_3:5-9.
I believe that's why there is so much confusion on a thread like this--using wordly terminologies foreighn to Scriptures
It certainly does not mean simply our bodies as distinct from our souls, so as to imply the idea that the former must be macerated that the latter may live.
The asceticism inculcated elsewhere in the New Testament is in no contradiction to the ideal of mens sana in corpore sano. Our former sin-possessed and sin-dominated personality being now crucified with Christ, dead, and done away with, we are no longer, in our new personality, in slavery to sin, and are both bound and able to renounce it; "for he that hath died is freed [δεδικαίωταιa,, literally, ’is justified’] from sin."
Guess what @Lizbeth this is from Pulpit commentary--excellent, if you know a little about Greek and Hebrew and the morphology.
2) "That our old man is crucified with him," (hoti ho palaios hemon anthropos sunestaurothe) "That the old (man) or person of us was crucified with him," and now is to exist as dead (barren, unfruitful, unproductive). We are to feed, exercise, cultivate the old desires and passions no more, but to keep them subdued, bridled, under subjection, 1Co_9:26-27; Rom_12:1-2; Col_1:1-3.
3) "That the body of sin might be destroyed," (hina katargethe to soma tes hamartias) "in order that the body of sin might be destroyed," brought to great loss or ruin, be bridled, kept under control by the Holy Spirit, by the new life of Christ in us, as Paul yearned to do, 1Co_9:26-27; Gal_5:25.
CARTHAGE DESTRUCTION
It is reported of Cato that he never spake in the senate upon public business, but he ended his speech by inculcating the necessity of destroying Carthage; his well-known maxim was: "Delenda est Carthage." The believers' motto is, "The old man must be crucified."
--J. Lee
4) "That henceforth we should not serve sin," (tou meketi douleuein hemas te hamartia) "To the end that we should no longer serve the body of sin," the cravings of the old flesh-body and its desires, no longer be in bondage or slavery to the desires of the carnal nature, Eph_4:22-24; Col_3:5-9.
I believe that's why there is so much confusion on a thread like this--using wordly terminologies foreighn to Scriptures
Yes, this inner/outer man is bringing a lot of confusion.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
A certain false teacher makes it confusing whereas Paul ans Scripture below makes it easy to understand in bold/underlined below.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
1- the outer is decaying, dying
2- the inner man ( who is born again) is renewed daily- living
He is contrasting them- our flesh, body is perishing and our inner man our soul/spirit is living, eternal, renewed daily- its imperishable. That is why our bodies become imperishable in the Resurrection.
I was about to post this portion of Scripture--and here you go--which is diametrically opposed to what Epi is teaching, NOT using the Scriptures--
2) "But though our outward man perish," (all' ei kai hoekso hemon anthropos disphtheiretai ) "But if indeed the outward man of us is being, or exists in, a disabled state or condition," a condition of weakness. It is often in physical weakness, bodily affliction and under pain one may be strongest in the Lord, 2Co_12:10.
3) "Yet the inward man is renewed," (all' ho eso hemon anakainoutou) "yet the inner (esoteric, spiritual man) is being renewed," rejuvenated," Rom_7:22; Eph_3:16. The inward man may be renewed in knowledge "day by day", one day at a time, Col_3:10; Rom_12:2.
4) "Day by day," (hemera kai hemera) "day even by day," or one day at a time, Eph_4:22-23; 2Pe_3:18, as the earthen vessels decay day by day, even so the spiritual man may grow, mature, be empowered anew every day, Mat_6:33.
J.
Happy to discuss these things, brother. I might need tweeking on some of this, but just going by those scriptures that I brought....if that is not correct then how are we to understand them? I believe there must be a reason why even though our old man has been crucified, we still need to undergo chastisements and sufferings. What is the purpose of carrying a cross? We are evidently walking through a crucifixion of some kind while here on earth, and that is part of what it means to follow Jesus......following Him to where He is...."you know the way to where I am." That way is the same way He walked, the way of the cross.....a crucifixion.
He is the potter, we are the clay and we are His workmanship.....there is evidently still work of some kind going on in us, and I believe those scriptures help us to understand what and why. It is self-evident that our flesh has not been crucified, since we're still alive and walking around, and there is still the need to beat it to make it our slave. Remember Jesus saying to fear the one who can destroy body and soul in hell?.....what I believe to have received there is that body and soul are kind of fused together as one. We are to be perfecting holiness in flesh and spirit and be blameless in spirit, soul and body. And remember that the sword of the spirit is a double edged sword, dividing between soul and spirit....there must be a reason why it needs to do that.
Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives (Gk - psuche/psyche) unto the death. (see, same Greek word for soul here once again, but please check it out - and I believe that is why the scripture says "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints", because it is alluding to the 'death' of the soul-life for His sake.)
I still can't get a handle on what Epi is saying about outer man....it confuses me in relation to old/new man. The bible doesn't talk about an outer man, though it talks about an inner man, as well as old and new man. I'm just trying to stay with bible terminology that I know otherwise I get confused. Maybe it's just my poor brain, or maybe it's because I only speak "bible-ese". I think Episkopos has some things right, but some things are very wrong. Throwing out the foundation has led to some wrong conclusions. Completely unnecessary to throw out the foundation in any case....because it's a matter that we need to "work out" what Jesus has already accomplished. Eg, we know the devil was completely and soundly defeated at the cross......but yet we still see him prowling around causing havoc. Also, God told the Israelites that He had given the Canaanites into their hands, as in past tense, yet they still needed to go fight the battles to bring it to pass.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Read my earlier post about the "outer " man vs the inner man from 2 Corinthians 4.
Eternally Grateful
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Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me
have been crucified, Verb, Perfect, Passive, Indicative, first person singular
I did not crucify myself. I was crucified, And in the perfect tense, it is a completed action. Because I have been crucified with Christ, Christ now lives in me, it is not me that lives, (my flesh) but CHrist is living in me.
I no longer and a slave to the flesh, I am now a slave to christ.
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me
have been crucified, Verb, Perfect, Passive, Indicative, first person singular
I did not crucify myself. I was crucified, And in the perfect tense, it is a completed action. Because I have been crucified with Christ, Christ now lives in me, it is not me that lives, (my flesh) but CHrist is living in me.
I no longer and a slave to the flesh, I am now a slave to christ.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I had always taken that to be talking about the flesh body as well. Is it possible it is also speaking of the soul-life? I don't know, maybe.
Eternally Grateful
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I also think it was the flesh life. The life is decaying as we start to live in christ who lives in us.. As he grows us or sanctifies us.
Eternally Grateful
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Amen, the foundation. The cross.. If we throw out the foundation. Everything else is a mass of confusion.
VictoryinJesus
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“Salvation is for sinners” that they(sinners) may be found not in their own image (sinners), but having had sufficient time in the earthy (fulfilling the desires and lust thereof); that they may bear His likeness. “Salvation is for sinners.” Does that mean the corruptible inherits? Or the incorruptible inherits?
Romans 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God (moving mountains for, to reach with an out stretched hand, longing) after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
After the inner man says to me God desires (moves for being active a going after) the inner man.
That God is after this man. The hidden man of the heart.
“While we were yet sinners” God intervened. “After the inner man.” “Let it be the hidden man of the heart” “which is precious in the Sight of God” It is this man God is after (long suffering towards, patience for) this “hidden man of the heart” which is precious to God.
Are we not told there is that which is “outward” and God doesn’t judge according to this outward man, His Sight different than how men see? “You judge by appearances” that which is “outward”
Yet His Sight is not on that which is “outward” “outer” but His Sight in on (after) the “inward” “inner”…? How can you say there it is nothing about “outward” man and “inward” man? Is God after hatred, back-biting and endless debates. Or is He after (long-suffering for, patient for) what is precious in His sight? Unless I misunderstood the Word says His sight is after the inner and not the outward.
Otherwise, God would only choose (same as men) the people men find valuable. Only the ones with something to give. For example well known actors and actresses, big-time speakers, and yes “pastors” with the most following and stadiums full. It is was the outer man…this is who God would call and be after. precious in His sight.
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VictoryinJesus
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God is after the inward man; the hidden person of the heart, (imperishable) precious in His sight.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God is not slack concerning His promise; after the inward (imperishable) person of the heart, not willing that any should perish…
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